Decision Time

[Zommi]

I'm a 59 Necro on Luclin.

Before I started this character (a few months back), the last time I had logged into EQ was pre-Luclin, ie. 60 was the top level, and there were no AAs.
So, I had been going along just trying to level up as a priority, 100% reg exp (okay... so I have 3 AAs because I couldn't resist :rolleyes: ).
The other day in Plane of Nightmare I was grouped with a Ranger who said I should just get DC and then worry about levelling after that.

My question is, is DC worth the 27 point investment at level 59, or should I wait until 65 to AA, or is there some middle ground that is a more ideal situation?

Thanks in advance,
zommi

[Beltathor]

DC is a good AA.. dont get me wrong.. but the pet dosent taunt, and DC breaks if you FD (so you cant use the "argo-b-gone" if you get dot or slow argo with a DC pet).

Honestly.. you gonna listen to a ranja about AA for a necro? ;)

/jk

Put AA's into what you will think is good for your style of play. Check the other thread on AA's. Personally, I like my regen, mental clarity, and LoH for the pet (has saved my butt many times!). I dont use DC really at all outside Veksar.

[Keystone]

DC is virtually worthless imo if you can use it you could be charming a much stronger mob 99% of the time /shrug. I have had dc for over a year and have only used it maybe 5? times.

[Dycacian]

I am a 65 necro on Druzzil ro.. and I HIGHLY suggest that you get RUN3 ASAP.. and then lvl untill 65 THEN AA. AAs go so freaking fast at 65 because of the places you can exp are so much better. it isn't worth wasteing your time at lower lvls getting AAs. a LVL will gain you FAR more than any AA will barring Run3. Run 3 is the single most required AA for guilds and will save your life more than FD will. NOONE can tell me that getting ANY other AA is more beneficial to me than a lvl. I waited till 65 and once I got there I had over 40 AAs in a month.. and that is casual playing. I don't play 24/7, Never have.

THE ONLY other class I suggest getting AAs pre 65 is a ranger.. they need thier achery AAs cause it SERIOUSLY increases thier DPS. NO aa for necros even comes close.


Now to what AAs to choose.

In this order I suggest
Run3
Regen3 = have to get somthing lol this is next best thing to run 3 and you should already have it by now
SCM3= saves FAR more mana than mental clerity will give.. Don't even bother with mental clerity you are a necro you have lich for mana regen.
SCF3 = crits
Pet Disc - single most importan raid AA for necro.
suspend minion1 = so you can invis.. I have SM2 but it isn't needed
life burn- = good DPS for big mobs
WTD = single most fun AA for necros

after this.. you can go for Lich title.. or go for planer aas.. I personally am about to get my Lich title.. then I plan on finishing FoM cause I love to nuke then I guess I will do the planar power stuff.

ALSO there is an ongoing depate as to if a necro should get SCS3 and once you start raiding stuff in Elemental planes I would recomend it.. Even FD won't save you if you get summoned up there.. I have over 4600HP raid buffed and I will die almost instantly and that is with my 750 rune shield on too. Better not to get summoned at all.

My list of usless AAs for necros.
Mental clerity
DC
MGB- UNLESS you are in Elemental planes.. then MGB could be useful for GDMF if you have it. I personally still refuse to spend 15K on GDMF.


Laters,
Dy

[Schaeffer]

i'm not arguing with you, just curious, but why is /pet Disc so important on Raids?

[Dycacian]

well.. when you or your pet get hit with an AE that goes off too soon.. then your pet will go and attack. UNLESS you have pet disc.. Before you even go into the room with the big AE boss you can hit /pet hold and when you and your pet get hit with the AE you your pet won't aggro.. and thus the boss won't aggro you. Thus making it possible for a chanter to mem blur the mob so he stops his AE so you guys can set up the raid. hence.. you won't wipe. I have seen more wipes than i would like to admit when peeps bring pets to a raid without pet hold. ALSO it will save you from getting yelled at by all your guildies, or causeing your officers to prohibit pets on all raids.

That help? hehe

Laters,
Dy

[Schaeffer]

Ah makes a lot of sense, thanks

[sintalon]

Pet Disc is nice and i plan to get it eventually. Currently i just use suspend 2 atm which is something that works for me more on a Day to day basis.

What i dont understand regarding your post for your preference of AA progression is why MC3 is useless. an additional FT3 on a character is well worth the AA points and it neatly finishes out Archetype responsibilities to open up Class. Again i see the merit in your preference and although i disagree slightly with parts of the others, MC3 is the only one i am curious really curious to hear your reasoning about.

Let me know.

Btw /wave Zommi :)

[Schaeffer]

I don't think MC3 (Mental Clarity) is useless, however I do think IDN3 (Improved Natural Durabilty) is better worth spending the 12 points. It's improves you base HP by 20% which in my opinion helps better with Lich than MC3 would. You recover more mana with a Lich than you would with FT, so the more HP's you havve, the longer you can keep Lich up, the more mana you gain back...

I'm not saying it's a complete waste, but if I'm gonna spend points in Archetype abilities just to get to Class Abilities, then I'd spend them on IDN3. Would it be on my list of eventual abilities after Call to Corpse, Pet Disc, Lifeburn and Wake the Dead? Yeah sure, along with INT 5 and STA 5, but not before I get the cool stuff!

[Zommi]

Thanks for all the input.

/bonk me for listening to rangers

/wave Sintalon :)

zommi

[Jebasiz]

DC is useless. Runspeed 3, regen 3, scm3...and then adapt to your style of play.
I've found channeling focus, LR, ID, TOL, and SCF/FOM especially helpfull.

Jeb

[Tauruse]

Run 3 and maybe regen3 other than those two level to 65 then AA.

[Kompressor]

is pet disc same as pet hold?

[Nyteson]

Ok, like in the "Ding!" Forum, I ding'd 51 last nite :lol: while doing the Auspice and Comatose Quest's in Dulak :ph34r: . Now that I have the ability to AA, I know what I want to get but, when you go to put exp in AA (52-65, so I am impatient) what percent should I be putting into AA? Should I just change 100% exp to AA when Reg exp sucks where ever I happen to be post 52? That's probably what I'll be doing anyway. But if I am getting good reg exp, how much should I be putting into AA? Hope I haven't confused :blink: anyone yet... LoL Any advice from AA XP players would be great.

P.s. I've been called back to the Oil Fields in the Arctic circle of Alaska. I won't be playing for a few weeks. I want to thank you all for the informative and fun posts. I look forward to reading them when I get back. Oh, and playing EQ again. . o O (I'm addicted, I know) LoL

[Jebasiz]

If you aa at all before 65, I wouldn't suggest much(unless there's no way for you to get spells, then you may want to get money/spells/gear before then). I've been told nobles in HHK are great aa exp for you, and maiden's eye shouldn't be bad. After some safety exp in 51 I'd 90/10 aa/reg exp until rs3(if sow potions or jboots aren't enough to keep ya happy until 60/61). If you don't *need* to aa now, I wouldn't do it at all. Exp is much faster with a full spell book and more zones open to you.

Jeb

[Schaeffer]

At 51 it will take you way too long to get AA XP. The way I went about it is I kept grinding 100% reg XP till halfway through 55. Then go to the PoI factory or go to PoV and put 100% into AA. You'll have 6 AA's in 8 hours time. Now you got Baron and your run3 and regen3. Then get to 60 and AA again till you're happy and then get to 65 and then you don't have any choice but to AA.

[Skova]

There is a popular misconception about the time or level to AA. Most people you will ask will tell you to wait for 65 to AA because the EXP is so much better. I dont believe anyone will argue this point.

I will, however, argue that as a SOLO class, we might find that the available "soloable" mobs are fewer and further between at 65 than at 51. I personally will not solo LBs as i feel this is a waste of time and talent.

I also believe that the AAs available to you untill you reach 59 will better benefit you at low 50s than they do at post 60s. I hear many of you suggesting run3. This AA is a really nice AA but i feel it is icing. I went with sta3 and regen3 to get to archetype. I probably dont have to tell any of you that HPs are most important to us, that is why i chose sta3. Whether you are an iksar or not regen is a must! I felt, for me, that run3 wasnt necessary. I will fd or comatose long before I think about running. With spells like gate and levant in our repertoire, running almost seems pointless.

After i got the archetype opened, i chose the straight progression of natural durability3. More hps= longer lich time. At 59 with 235 sta and ND3 I have 2100 hps self buffed. I am an iksar and with regen3 and a zlandicar heart i am regenning 24 hps a tick. I am not sure how the math works out but when i have lich on i lose only 6 hps a tick! Will take a long time to chew through 2100 hps at 6 per tick.

I havent gotten enough points to choose any class AAs yet but i am looking forward to mend companion and life burn. IMO these are essential for soloing power.

Now b4 you all get your robes up in a knot, remember that I am speaking from a soloers point of view. If you spend 90% of your time in groups and raids then more power to you and do as you see fit. But, not all of us game in uber guilds on overpopulated servers. Some of us spend 90% of our time soloing and I felt that the AAs i got on my way to 59 greatly helpd me out by far more than just a few levels. I am by no means saying to get all the AAs you want before you level up, but I felt that a steady progression in AAs while leveling greatly enhanced my ability to solo.

AAs will not make or break a necro but i found spending points in little things like innate sta and int helps to relieve some of the stress we find at overinflated pricing of caster gear.

[Doomfir]

I approached my AA's in the same sence of soloing ability. It is true (and may always be), that the rest of norrath, doesn't really understand what necro's bring to a group, and are hesitant to fill a dps or support position with one unless they themselves also play a necro as an alt / main. Some understand who have had the priveldge of being twitched by a necro or mind wrack, or had a us back up heal, or slow / mex undeads. But allot of people have no idea what we do. On the whole they think we are a "solo" class.

And why is that? Because we do solo very well indead and they see this. Anyhow, I put a number of AA's into regen and run 3, then I put into suspend minion and dire charm. Being able to suspend a minion allows you to go invis without killing your pet, get to where you are fighting (now back up to FM) and unsuspend him. OR, go to a raid, wait for the assist call, and unsuspend your pet (if you dont have pet discipline yet).

Dire charm so far has been my most used spell vs. some people saying they dont use it much at all. I find that pretty interesting in and of itself. At 65 there are very few places that we can go and just solo dark blue mobs all day. Veksar is one of those places and there are lots of undead. For that matter outside of the golems and goblins, it is all undead. A golem will make you work very hard to keep your CoB pet healed, and you can just about forget about LoZ handling an unslowed golem. A DC pet with 8k hps make golems much easier. In Veksar, a DC pet rules. I make at least 3+ AA a day, and 10-30k in loot. I don't have to worry about kiting either. While I agro kite religiously, I don't like it as much as pet tanking by any means. I hate running ALL the ;lkj time and getting "you can't see your target" just because of some small bump in the hill he is traveling up to get to you (PoV OC comes to mind).

In Veksar, you can smoke dark blue mobs much faster than kiting, be FM, FH, and with slows etc.. you can own other mobs quickly there. Non stop pulling. While I like to go to BoT grouped, if I can't get a group immediately, I head to veksar with my lfg tag up and get exp while I wait.

HoH GY kite camp is another great reason to have DC. Our 65 pets suck quite frankly in comparison to a DC "a valiant squire" there.

Etc.. I like that a DC pet unlike a regular charmed pet doesnt break charm at certain / random inconvenient intervals. I would NEVER go to Veksar and reg charm a mob solo for exp. That would so suck to have a dark blue "Seer" or "Nihilist" break charm with another DB shopkeeper etc in tow. DC I don't have to worry about it.

http://www.necrotalk.com/index.php?showtopic=419 shows some of my dmg / hp comparisons and you can tell, they are def worth the effort to get if you want to do any of these camps with them.

[Nigyl]

DC is a good AA.. dont get me wrong.. but the pet dosent taunt,

I don't remember the last time I had pet taunt on: most of the time I don't want the pet to taunt because it will get killed fast. I guess on summoning mobs it would be more important, but I've never tried soloing one yet.

will, however, argue that as a SOLO class, we might find that the available "soloable" mobs are fewer and further between at 65 than at 51.

Yep. My approach to AAs has been: find a grind spot where I can get decent XP with close to zero risk, cast a few DoTs and read a book or watch a movie while my pet kills stuff. At 59 I'm running out of spots to do that.

I hear many of you suggesting run3. This AA is a really nice AA but i feel it is icing

Unless you like buying SoW potions or want to faff around with JBoots, that seems like an odd conclusion to me. I for one spend an awful lot of time running around with big bad mobs chasing me and aiming to give me a good kicking, and RS3 or better is pretty much essential there: even with Dooming Darkness, normal run speed often isn't enough to get safely ahead of them to cast.

I probably dont have to tell any of you that HPs are most important to us, that is why i chose sta3.

Well, it's about an extra 20 hit points in the high 50s, maybe more at 60+. I do intend to max out my STA AAs at some point in the future, but it's nowhere near as important to me as RS3, Dire Charm, Regen3, Call to Corpse, etc.

remember that I am speaking from a soloers point of view

Then I have a hard time understanding why you think STA is more useful than RS3...

[Skova]

To me anything which gives me hps (even 20 hps) is more important than run 3. I do not aggro kite. I stated elsewhere I am a lazy necro. i do not chase mobs nor do i run around and let them chase me. With a real dark on the mob (dooming is not a good snare) there is no need for faster running. If they catch me, I fd. That puts aggro back to the pet long enough for me to redark and get aggro. Running should never be an option when things go wrong. At 60 we have three fd spells 2 invulnerability spells gate and levant. if you die it was because you let it happen. Not saying i havent died, but i blame no one or nothing else but me for it. Again i speak from a personal view as to how i like to solo.

I am now 60 with max sta at 255. I have 2235 hps with our single hp buff on. I once read somewhere that for a necro it is not necessarily the size of our mana pool that counts but the speed at which we regain it. As we necros know this means the longer you can leave lich spells on. More HPs= more lich time. As an iksar with regen3, zlan heart and a fleshweavers mark i lose 14 hps a tick with archlich on. Even 20 hps will allow for one more tick.

I will never say run3 is a bad choice. I do believe it is nice to have, but not as a part of main progression through AAs. i did a straightt progression for titles and to open up the better AAs. I will someday go back and finish out innate sta. Which will allow me to replace a few pieces of sta gear for more direct hp/mana gear. I will probably also go back for run3.

I am not trying to tell you how to play by any means. I believe each person has to design their characters around their individual style of playing. If you aggro kite alot then i can see where you feel run3 is a better choice for you.

[Skova]

Sorry, I need to add one point i forgot. Natural durability is based from sta and sta gear/effects. this means the higher your sta is the more of a bonus that % will give to hps.

[Jebasiz]

I also believe that the AAs available to you untill you reach 59 will better benefit you at low 50s than they do at post 60s. I hear many of you suggesting run3. This AA is a really nice AA but i feel it is icing. I went with sta3 and regen3 to get to archetype. I probably dont have to tell any of you that HPs are most important to us, that is why i chose sta3. Whether you are an iksar or not regen is a must! I felt, for me, that run3 wasnt necessary. I will fd or comatose long before I think about running. With spells like gate and levant in our repertoire, running almost seems pointless.

So your going to spend a month getting AA's to use for levels that only take a week or 2 to attain and pass?

I understand not wanting to camp light blues for loot/exp..it(most of the time) is a waste of what we're capable of and should be left to druids and shaman. I also think that being a level 65 is the ultimate goal of people not there yet. Getting AA's to make you stronger 55-59(a day a level here isn't hard) just seems like a waste of time.

I got runspeed 3/regen 3 SCM 3, ND3, and a few other AA's at 62. I don't think I had any aa's before then. Dire Charm is solely a farming tool, Exp in Veksar SUCKS, there's no argument that can change it..it's horrible exp and the named spawn rate is rare as all hell. PoV pet, if I had DC already I may actually use it the one time a month I go there. If I was just starting to gain AA points I wouldn't use them on things that are so situational in use, there are about 150aa points you can spend that improve your character in any zone, against any encounter...I think they'd serve you best initially...That's what I did it worked nicely.

Jeb
arch lich..somewhere around 300aa's

[Nigyl]

I also think that being a level 65 is the ultimate goal of people not there yet.

It's not mine, but I think you're right that the people who say 'don't AA, just level' are mostly those who regard the game as a race to 65 with minimum days played. I honestly don't care whether I ever get there, but I do know that AAs will help me at whatever level I finally get to before I give up.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Skova@Jan 20 2004, 04:26 PM
I hear many of you suggesting run3. This AA is a really nice AA but i feel it is icing on the cake

I stated elsewhere I am a lazy necro.
All the more reason to get run 3. I'm lazy as hell and I don't like aggro kiting either, but geez do I hate running through zones.

And yes we get three FD's two Invulnerabilty spells and Levant and Gate. That's 7 spells to get you out of harms way, but we only have 8 gem slots, so you should only have two memmed at once, if that. I keep a root and an FD memmed at all times. If I get bad aggro I FD and if it doesn't stick I root, Back up and FD again. If I'm really in a jam, i'll root mem gate and FD and when gate pops, I'll stand up and gate. And if you're using the invulnerability line, you best have run3 to make a dash for the zone before it wears off, cause you can't cast while it's up. Like I said in another forum, you can't know how much of a difference run 3 makes until you get it, that's why it is the number 1 required AA for most uber guilds...

[Skova]

I dont belong to nor do i have an interest in uber guilds. i spend 90% of my time soloing (not all by choice). I have no interest in racing to 65 either. I like to enjoy my time played not make it a measuring contest of how uber how fast. As a soloer it takes more than 2 weeks to gain five levels.And contrary to popular belief it doesnt take a month to get an AA even at 51. the way i see it those people who blasted to 65 before getting AAs then telling everyone its a waste unless they do the same is just jealous that im a sage at 60 and they havent made baron yet. I have heard many people say "well im 65 all there is left is AA" To me THAT is the waste. I see so many 65s who dont even know that the stone to ot is faster to get to chardok than the fv stone. I honestly believe if the game designers didnt intend for us t gain AAs untill 65 then they wouldnt offer them to us at 51.

If you get alot of groups or get to raid alot, if you aggro kite, if you get to do more than soloing 90% of your time then you have to decide for yourself how you want to progress. I am not telling you my way is the best way, but in the same light i dont want to stand here and listen to others tell me im wasting my time doing it the way i am. For me it is the best way. People in my guild telling me all the time "you need to get 63 so we can go do bot, hoh and stuff like that" Sorry but there is more to the game than 2 or 3 uber zones, and being level 65.

As for run3, if that works for you then great! i would rather go out and get sow potions (only when i cant find a sower in pok) than to spend hard earned AAs on run3. someday i might come back and get it but for now i concentrate on a straight progression to get to class AAs which is where the real meat and potatoes lie.

[Xelgadis]

Kind of off topic a little bit, but after reaching 65, I've been running 90/10 AA/exp since. You don't really notice the difference except maybe in the long run, but nothing is more embarassing than that wonderful "gratz on 64".

I've been asked a few times to coffin CR full raids, as they didn't have a necro in the raid (why they didn't is beyond me). The ppl in the raids were all 65 to start with, but many conned blue to me when I invited them into my group to summon their corpse(s)... hmm...

At the very least, I recommend getting 20% (or one yellow bubble) into 65 before hitting AA extremely hard. At the moment, I'm approximately 50% into 65, and I've died w/o getting rezzed and hardly cared. At this point, losing 5% experience for dying means little to me as I have little to no fear of embracing 64 once again.

[boonees]

All of the prementioned thoughts are valid, however i would never say that DC is a useless aa, yeah sure get all the aas that are useful because they are important, however i do like to farm, i have re equipped my 65 cleric and 65 monk that i stopped playing just on a year ago in around 1 month, all through farming with my dc pet, having a dc pet that has 10k hps against any of your other spell pets is like chalk and cheese for straight up tanking, yes you can charm high lvl mobs, just remember if your not used to doing it then it takes a little time to learn.
For straight out ease with not a lot of input from yourself, ie pet tanking then DC rocks, i consistently reap 40 to 50 k a night in veksar, yeah you all guessed :P
thats solo with my dc crusader.

Boonees 65 necro

[Jebasiz]

I wonder how a Focused Child of bertoxxulous with max flurry and crit AA will compare to that level 46 crusader? Hps will be less, but I'm almost willing to bet dps will be about the same...

[VenimFv]

what do you guys think about combat agility for the possibility of not getting smacked as hard and lightning reflexes ?

[Jebasiz]

I have CA3 and LR5 and I love the defensive aa's we have. I have CS 3 and ID 5 as well, but the latter two were much less noticeable (read: not getting hit at all > getting hit for less dmg). Pending on your playstyle, and how much you ToM tank things..these could be a VERY intelligent way to spend some AA's, I love both lines personally.

[Doomfir]

I am going to have to reserve judgement on the dmg output of CoB at full Crits and Flurry yet.. but I hope to get that soon. Already started on level 1 of flurry and going for level 2 this weekend. I think he has a LONG way to go though to make up to the DC pet. !23-125 dmg a hit and regularly does up to 1k dmg per tick is going to be hard to catch up to. I hope he can.. nothing would please me more than to be able to use CoB instead of DC pet since then I could FD for any excess agro control. The pet would also be more disciplined since I have pet hold etc for him. We shall see is all I can say. Until then though my DC pet rules in Veksar.

I am not ashamed to say I use DC to farm by any means either. I have made over 400k pp in veksar since going there. I have totally twinked my shammy with some of the best droppable gear there is and what he cant wear he has in the bank waiting for him when he hits the level requirement for it.

[Jebasiz]

I woke a beastlord who flurried no less then 6 times, and crit atleast twice before he depopped. The raidleader jokingly (I think) told me, he's better dead then alive. die plsthx!

Anyway it appears WTD pets get the AA abilities of regular pets.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Feb 18 2004, 08:25 PM
Anyway it appears WTD pets get the AA abilities of regular pets.
Woot, I can't wait now...

[Nytewind TP]

I have to agree with Skova on his post. I'm only currently lvl 49, but I'm in no race to get to 65. Yes, getting new spells & such are nice, but I'm going to move along at the pace I wish. I'm going to Ding 51. Get Run3, Regen3 then maybe even Sta3. If I can easily suck in exp at level 51 solo I might as well get the easy AA points while I'm still young.

[Captain_Crunch]

Personally I disagree with all the "get AA at 51" posts around here. For one im only 56 (hopefully 57 by tomorrow) right now, and I am bored out of my MIND while getting exp. I am one of those people who "race to 65" but by all means I am not trying to get uber as fast as possible. in my point of view at 65 a lot more doors are open to you then at say 51. Of course it might be boring GETTING to 65 but considering you can go pretty much wherever you want, do a lot more, laugh at the guards that you are beating senseless who killed you so many times before, and go around and awe low levels with your fancy tricks, I think once you hit 65 it will be a lot more enjoyable then do half-grind-half-running-around at 51. Oh and considering the thread you can get AA exp without even THINKING about it at 65: for example if you are farming to twink out your new alt (lets hope to god it isn't a ranger for your sake) you might make 3-6 AAs while just farming for your little one, and thats not even going out of your way for AAexp.

[Jebasiz]

Everquest is a completely different game once level capped, Captain. Most of what you said your right about, but don't forget the ability to take some of you level 65 friends and going off and killing raid content for level 60's. Heh, I've been messing around in kunark and velious from time to time...and it's alot of fun going out and getting your friends sleeper tomb keys with 4 people, vice 40. Honestly who's gonna get to klandicar first, a guild of 35+ or half a group of people who just evac'd across SG all at once?