Iksar question

[Jerec]

Just a lil questions for all you ikky necros out there. At high level, 60+, do you think the xp penalty you took was worth the regen?

[Schaeffer]

I'm 55 and so far i think the XP penalty was well worth the regen aspect up until this point. This was my second character and at 55 my /played is less than my 51 ranger.

Schaeffer

[NeSikWay]

I love being able to regenerate, yes its worth the xp. A couple of reasons why is because I can help heal more, still not as much as a cleric class, but two necros can keep a group going, and if you are generating, then you are able to heal more. They say later on it doesn't matter, but iksy get more regen as they lvl and then can also add aa to it which make it even more help. Now others say its not enuf to matter. I partnered with at tank and kept us both healed via spell taps and my regen because I could heal some during down time and regen it back. So other who say later on its not worth it or not needed, I'm lvl 47 now and still using my regen. Could I have done it with another race, most likely, but I have very few problems worring about low hp agro, and if I FD I can still regen as if I"m a normal necro sitting. So yeah I like it, does it help if you are getting the beat down? nope one beating in the planes and you can be down regen or none.

But this is all my own opion, I've tried necros with other races and I don't like them as well, but you as a player should make up your own mind, what do you like to play and how you like to play.

[Reyna Niteraven]

When I made Reyna I was brand brand new at game....so I just made her..lol
I like her and there are some days when Im FD and waiting for a mob to leave and low on HPs that I think "Darn it I should a been a lizzy" *giggle*

You have to admit you cant beat that regen especially if your FD and you still regen as if you were sitting. :-)

All in all I like my little dark elf Necro, *smile* The nice thing about her that her base int starts higher so not as much worry about having to take up slots with int on them and I can find items that have direct manna and direct hps.

I think each race you pick has both its advantages and disadvantages.. its all in what you like to play.

Ya gotta admit though....the male iksar look pretty darn tough and nice. :-)

[Doomfir]

At the upper levels it isnt worth it at all. Iksar natural regen is like troll regen and basically is minimalized the higher the level you get. When you get to 65 it means absolutely nothing. When you consider lich is knocking your hps down at a rate of 61+ hps a tick what is 2 a tick regen? Even if it was as high as 6 it wouldn't be worth it considering at that point you are lifetapping 850hps+ in a single cast.

I repeat what I have said all along, play whatever race you want and forget about race as an issue to choose what you really want to play. All gear will level everyone out eventually at the upper levels.

[Schaeffer]

HP regen moves up exponetiallly,

at 59 for ikky's your regen 12hp standing and 18 sitting
everybody else 7 sitting 4 standing

it makes a difference getting zapped 61 a tick and with ikky regen, regen 3, and a zheart gaining 26 of it back...

[Emperson]

yah im a DE and everyday at least once i think... wow i shoulda made an ikky... int and mana are so easy to come by with gear and lich... so it makes regen and hps that much more important...

[sintalon]

Valid points on the regen but although Doomfir had the numbers wrong i agree with the sentiment. Im primarily a solo gnome necro. i lose life when i lich with seduction of saryn but its not like we cant HoT it back for 200 a tick, barring burn4 items. Another point to consider is the fact that our 3 best DoTs are Blood of Thule, Saryn's Kiss, and Funeral pyre. I mean that damage wise. Saryns only costs 550 mana per cast and if spaced out usually every other mob i keep Mujaki up just in case something got close enough to hit me. But again when fighting a mob that if it does hit you will possibly quadd for 550 a hit you dont really plan on sitting still.

The point of that section was that the Highest HoT you get is actually one of your better dots. doing 200+ a tick to a mob is nice but having it compensate your lich is great. Tie in that with a +200 in minus your lich you can still Shadowbond that FD monk or your pet or someone else for 5m and save them mana.

Anycase didnt mean to get off topic there but it doesnt matter what particular race you play. Play the one you like. Later in life the playing field is pretty well leveled like doom said.

[NeSikWay]

I find it strange, that people who don't play ikky's say it lvls out, people who do, say the exp pently is worth it. The hitpoint increase is linear. 2/4/6 I believe, but then you add regen 3 doent that make it 12? okay compared to our lifetap spells its not much, but when I FD and can turn off lich, and heal up, or lich up then heal, I can see in a raid gone bad it might make a big diff from living and dying, or if you have a dot on. we scramble for +sta items for a few more hit points, so we can do more, we pay out for a Zheart or do the quest, because the more hp we can gather even only a few might just make a difference.

I do agree, on race, one isn't better than another, only how its fun we do this juggling of stats on times if it wasn't important to some extent.

[Doomfir]

It really doesn't matter even if regen is 12 at upper levels. I used those only as comparison. Regen is nice.. dont get me wrong, but when you compare it to your hitpoints (2200 -4000+) then it really becomes insignificant on the scale of things.

Touch of Mujaki and Saryn's kiss (or VM) are what you depend on for regen, not your innate regen. Play what you want at the upper levels. Iksar regen is no reason to play the race if you don't so much as like the looks. Get some good gear and enjoy your class. A necromancer should be the least concerned with regen of ANY of the classes considering what we can do and the way we do it.

Btw, DoTs that mobs throw on you at the uber levels are 430hps a tick (or even higher) and again, 12 hp a tick is insignificant. Play the race you want.

[sintalon]

/agree

[Schaeffer]

OK, i don't think i was making my point clear. This post wasn't meant as a discussion about which race was best. I do believe the question was, do you ikky necros feel the regen is worth taking the xp hit. As an Ikky necro, my OPINION is yes.

WARNING!!!
/rant on

Reason being getting hit with 61 damage a tick from a lich is alot. You can't keep it up long if you don't have a mob infront of you to tap or iff you are really low on mana and can't tap. And in that case, you have to click it off anyways so you don't lich to death. What I'm saying that during inevitable downtime, you can keep it up that much longer, gaining that much mana back and then be full mana faster and ready to go again when the time comes.

-61+26= -35 hp a tick instead of 61. This lets you keep it up 45% longer without having to tap or shut it off. Even in combat, although you're HoT spells add to DPS i really feel like I'm wasting mana if I'm HoT when I don't need to be.

By need to be HoT, I AM including those situation when you would Shadowbond a group member or pet., you don't always need to do that. And even if you let your HP get low and need to shadowbond, you can still HoT and then Shadowbond and still gain HP's back.

We have lots of cool spells and choices, The HoT and InstaTaps are a two for one. They do DPS and Heal, therefore the cost more mana than a "healers" heal and more mana than a straight Nuke or DoT, but if you NEED both, then it is a mana saver by being less mana than having to cast both a dps and a heal.

Should necros help heal non-MT melee and casters? Absolutely, but in situations where you don't need to, i think mana is better spent on crowd control (snares, roots and stuns) and dps. Some may feel that you're gaining so much back it doesn't matter if you waste a little on keeping your HoT up, but I like to diversify my spells in group situations, resist debuffing and group stat taps/buffs and ofcourse snares and nuking, I love outdamaging mages!!!

/rant off

I'm not stating that Ikky's rule over all, or that "ick" gnomes suck!

Make a human for all I care, it is how you play it and what you enjoy...

But I will re-iterate again I DO feel that the XP penalty was easy to overcome and I am VERY content with the regen.

[Doomfir]

Reason being getting hit with 61 damage a tick from a lich is alot. You can't keep it up long if you don't have a mob infront of you to tap or iff you are really low on mana and can't tap. And in that case, you have to click it off anyways so you don't lich to death. What I'm saying that during inevitable downtime, you can keep it up that much longer, gaining that much mana back and then be full mana faster and ready to go again when the time comes.


This is pretty much moot bro. If you are so low in hps that you are going to run out of mana or die from liching, you have over extended yourself to begin with. This is for necros that think they need 4 dot's on a mob during a kite and would indicate a lack of balancing life with mana.

P.S. I would love to know where you got 35 hps a tick from. This is NOT innate regen number you are using. If you are talking other regen items that goes for any race and not just iksars.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Doomfir@Dec 17 2003, 08:22 AM
P.S. I would love to know where you got 35 hps a tick from. This is NOT innate regen number you are using. If you are talking other regen items that goes for any race and not just iksars.
18 innate iksar regen + 3 from AA + 5 from Z heart - 61 from LICH = -35 all together.

When fear or aggro kiting, yes, you only need two dots. While root doting, I like to use three. Why? I'm in a dungeon usually at that point and want to take the sucker down fast so no adds and since no pet, I want some extra DPS. Like I said, I then reapply snare as necessary and lifetap at the end if I need to, but not always. Iksars have a smaller mana pool, so we need the faster mana recovery and the regen greatly helps us with that. You may need to play another race differently based on its attributes. Try to keep an open mind about it...

Does that change the answer about no race is truely better than the other, no it doesn't. It just means to choose the race and style of play that you think you'll like the best. Doesn't mean it's going to be the same for everyone.

[Doomfir]

Ok, the real base I was looking for was 18 (still not sure of this fact either but I don't know). I am a DE Necro and use a Z heart on occassion, but not for the regen, but rather the 20Int. As for the aa, I also put it in regen just because I have to spend the initial points somewhere and that was as good as any. Run3 was the top of my list though even though I have a chain horse just because you have to go into a dungeon sometime.

[Doomfir]

The real difference in Iksar regen is like 8-12 (for other races) - 18 (still not sure about that one) = 6-10hps a tick.. proof in point at level 60+ with good gear being an iksar means nothing.

[warlok34]

Just quick questions and then my comment, LoL.

What is a Z Heart? and where can I get/find/buy one?

Does Regen stack like Flowing Thought? By this, I mean, I have a Regenenration 1 Aug, I have no idea what it raises my regen to, I know it stacks withmy innate and AA regen, but is there a Regen 2, Regen 3, etc? and would it stack with this Z Heart?

Okay, now my comments... if you are with a group, and let's say with Innate, AA, and Z Heart the reduction is only 35 to hp, just cast Auspice, which reduces it to 5 hp (and if regen augs stack, it might even counter this), PLUS, you would be healing everyone in group 30hp a tick for 54 secs. Now, if you do have to do more healing for an MT, you can temporarily turn off your Lich and hit the MT with a more powerful heal (or, if you know you are primarily going to heal as some raids/groups don't have enough clerics), then you just Auspice, then pick an appropriate Life Sap off the Mob (as it will replace Auspice Recourse), and Bond with the MT (or vice versa, Bond with MT and mega-tap mob when life is low, although more dangerous as mob might be dead before spell goes off, LoL)... anyway, just my 2 scents...

Please let me know about the Z Heart, and if you know about regen and stackable, please let me know :-)

[Emperson]

there was another post about your regen questions... heres the link...

http://www.necrotalk.com/index.php?showtopic=264

[Doomfir]

A Z Heart is a Zlandicar's Heart. It is primary only I think (Haven't looked at mine in awhile). It is the equivalent of regen 5. The nice part of it is that it is +20Int as well as some other plus stats. The negative part is the neg cha.

I personally only use the zheart in the downtime just because I can, and use Primary: Book of the Lost City (BA3), Secondary: Ceramic Incence Burner (ID4), and Range: Ceramic Gavel of Justice (AE4). Along with my ornate gloves (Neurotoxin Mana Reduction), and ornate sleaves (MP4), I am a killing machine.

Edit note: When I mean downtime, I mean no fighting at all.. like waiting on someone for a group etc. Not between fights....

[Xavier]

the 20% penalty......The penalty doesnt mean crap either with all the new zones plus the new expansion coming out. Plus veksar itself. The penalty doesnt mean crap. And if you want to change that then keep in mind all dungeons are a 15% exp bonus. Breaking you down to only a 5% penalty. Thats why howling stones is such great exp. Its a dungeon. Sol C and lower guk are dungeons. Veksar is a dungeon. Dragon necropolis is a dungeon. Kaesora is a dungeon. Sebilis is a dungeon. Ahkeva is a dungeon. Griegs end is a dungeon. ect............

[sintalon]

Well your question was is the xp penalty worth the regen and i think the point that people are trying to make is that it is irrelavent. I am a gnome necro and i cant remember ever turning off lich unless i got summoned beat on got my FD and was low on life so i turned it off. Regular game play we are pretty darn efficient and i rarely have "inevitable downtime". Perchance i am in a situation where i know i will be expending mana fast and the mobs will not be plentiful, certain camps with long timers come to mind, just grab a stalking probe and tap the eye.

The real point is play what you want to play. Sure ikkys have a penalty. one of my best friends is an Ikky necro and he enjoys it just fine. Sure i outleveled him in the beginning but he caught up np. Statistically speaking tho the gear and level of characters balance things out. AA's , Regen/FT gear, Augments etc etc etc. It is a personal decision and this debate can go on for ever. I dont find the HP loss on lich to be even remotely detrimental and i rarely have to stop killing anything. If i am perchance grouped i usually have quite the excess of mana.

Xavier mentioned the XP these days and its really so true. XP is too easy to get expecially for us. So it may take an iksar a day more of the same zone or a few hours or whatnot. who cares. Play the class you want to play and ignore the penalties they really are irrelavent.

[KarmaKeeper]

i also play an iksar necromancer, and i wouldnt play any other race for this class. It just too much of an advantage not to.

Iksar have the highest XP penalty because of thier regen and also natural boost to ac. I havent even noticed the penalty, and im sure that my shorter down time from the extra regen the dragonchildren get and being naturally tougher at lower lvls helped ALOT.

if you have an experience penalty, that means its % easier (in this case, 20%) for you to kill mobs for some reason, its just to balance out being naturally tougher at lower lvls. that being said, a lvl 65 iksar vs any other non iksar 65 similarly equipeed will visibly overpower the other race from the simple fact of shorter down time.

that being said, you need to kill more mobs then other classes to lvl, but as long as you are managing your mana efficiently with lich and taps and when soloing are mostly never at full health or mana, your moving along at a pace i consider better because its not quite as dull and more mobs = more platinum.

my humble opinion

[Doomfir]

LoL.. here we go again. Wish I was board moderator I would just delete all these useless posts that keep surfacing when people just dont want to check the past posts.

Play what you want. The exp penalty and the Innate regen doesnt mean anything. If you use regen in your argument, don't forget to mention that iksar have the lowest innate Int of any race except human and hence a smaller mana pool. You guys always neglect to mention that in your Innate regen arguments.

The truth is that Innate regen is insignificant at the upper levels as is Int since gear makes up for ALL. Play what you want and forget all these senceless arguments.

[KarmaKeeper]

if you dont want people to talk about past posts, then why say anything yourself?

i fail to see the validity of your argument. items and aa can easily get ANY class/race combination upto 355 int. the formula for your mana pool drops down considerably past 200 anyways. its extremely easy to get your int to at least 200. however, its a bit tougher to get your hands on a few good regen 2 or 3 items to match what the iksar has naturally.

the argument about lower intelligence proves absolutely nothing. and you could argue hp regen doesnt matter with hp regen items. we could argue till we are blue in the face because it would seem although percieving each others points we fail to change our own perception and feel the incessant need to prove our perception right above all others

and im curious as to how you can say regen doesnt matter at high levels? if you dont have an iksar how can you tell? i have an iksar, and i can clearly see myself in group with other de necros my hp goes down slower, and i have to tap less often. also lower lvl regen spells can cancel out the xfer completely so if im sitting im just getting an additional 20m a tick with no hp loss (actually it goes up +3)

a few potions in case no shammy/druid around, and oh its so much easier. but i cant really say its easier, i only played a de to 12 when kunark was the only expansion, im sure alot has changed.

all in all it shouldnt really matter that much. if you have a hard time getting XP or leveling quickly, go less xp bonus. if your up for a slight edge with a stiffer challenge, pick the iksar.

i suppose the real rason i feel the need to argue this point is because many a times i see people saying they wish they had gone with the iksar.

:ph34r:

[Doomfir]

sigh.. I wish you would have read my post better. I DIDNT say people shouldnt read old posts.. I said they NEED to read old posts instead of posting the same thing over and over again. This thing with the iksar regen is what is making up half the posts on the board and it has been answered.. hashed and rehashed about a gazillion times. But people are too lazy to read what was posted in the past. They just want to post a new post about the same old thing.

I wont even bother to rebut your post about the iksar regen issue since it has been answered with numbers and facts and not heresay and unfounded beliefs. All I can say is believe what you want.

[KarmaKeeper]

you show me the link to the forum thread where its proven that iksar regen is useless (or not 'worth' it) and ill eat my words. and its been suggessted this particular topic should have a guide that sticky its a good idea

[Doomfir]

First of all, I never said in any post that it worthless to have iksar regen. What was stated is that it is marginalized by level. What we are talking about is innate regen. Not regen items that any necro can get. Innate regen is only like 6 hps a tick difference at level 65 with NO AA skills applied between the non regem races vs an iksar. If you have 2200hps to 4k hps then what is 6 hps every 6 seconds over another race really mean in the scale of things? That is only like 1 hp a second. How long do you think you would need to take to make up that dmg in ONE hit from a BoT mob that is hitting for 500+?

For more perspective, our lich at 63 dmg a tick while our HoT is doing 200 plus a tick. What is 6 hps every 6 seconds in comparison?? A gnome necro with a zheart (regen = 5 hps a tick) is doing close to the same regen as an iksar who doesnt have one. A couple of regen augments from LDoN and you are doing MORE regen than the innate regen of an iksar without the gear. Gear thereafter means more than the innate regen of the race. Race then becomes trivialized by gear and level. One lifetap does 850+ heal; what is 1hp a second in comparison to 850+?

It is all a matter of numbers. Play whatever race you want and enjoy him. Stop being concerned with what race he is and have fun. The only time innate regen truely matters is at the lower levels where your gear may suck and your hps are low.

[KarmaKeeper]

right right. i suppose my only argument is that the innate gives you a slight edge, which to me, is worth the xp penalty. but your absolutely right, play whatever class makes you happy and enjoy =)

nice profile peace :lol: