Mana Regeneration for the Discerning Necromancer

[Nox]

Mana Regeneration for the Discerning Necromancer

Summary

The following is a listing of the types of mana regeneration that a necromancer can use, and which stack with one another. I invite comments, corrections and criticisms to have the most accurate accounting of mana regeneration possible in the hopes that necromancers everywhere will find it a useful reference. The intended audience for this document are experienced necromancers who are looking to optimize their mana regeneration via gear, spells and abilities; the guide may also be useful to newer necromancers, though a number of the categories will not yet apply to them.

Introduction

Mana Regeneration is a key concern for all casters and hybrids in EverQuest. Fortunately, necromancers excel in this which allows us to stay in the fight long after others may have run their mana dry.

Mana Regeneration is composed of the following:

(1) Innate Mana Regeneration

All casters have an innate 1 mana/tick (tick = 6 seconds) while standing. This amount increases to 2 mana/tick while sitting, or "medding" as is better known. Sitting on a mount counts as sitting for mana regeneration purposes.

For level 65 characters, this innate regeneration increases to 3 mana/tick while standing, 4 mana/tick while sitting (or riding a mount).

A mount is defined as a horse or drogmor.

(2) Meditate Skill

Beginning at level 4, necromancers gain the Meditate ability. While you are sitting (or riding a mount), you receive a mana regeneration bonus equal to 1/10th of your Meditate skill, to a maximum of 25 mana/tick at Meditate 252.

n.b. This skill is level-capped until it reaches 252. At each character level, the maximum rank you can achieve is equal to [(level x 5) + 5]. e.g. At level 12, a character's maximum Meditate rank is [(12 x 5) + 5] = 65.

(3) AA Abilities

The Caster Archetype (Level 55+) AA ability called "Mental Clarity" can provide up to 3 mana/tick, if you spend 12 AA Points on it.

(4) Flowing Thought Items

Flowing Thought (FT) gear provide a mana regeneration equal to the number. i.e., Flowing Thought III provides 3 mana/tick. FT items do stack to provide a maximum bonus of 15 mana/tick.

For those elite few, there are a couple of Plane of Time drops which have an "Aura of Eternity" effect, which provides a 5 hp/tick, 5 mana/tick regeneration while worn.

(5) Self-Buffs

Necromancers receive the "Lich" line of spells beginning at level 8, which convert hit points to mana. The early hp:mana ratio are 2:1, but later spells improve this ratio to nearly 10:7 with the best spell of this line. This starts at a modest 2 mana/tick at level 8 to a staggering 50 mana/tick for the best in the line. NOTE: The "Lich" line does not stack with the Enchanter "Clarity" line of spells.

An overlooked spell in the necromancer line is the level 52 Manaskin buff. In addition to absorbing 521 - 591 points of damage, it provides a mana regeneration bonus of 1 mana/tick. A level 63 upgrade called "Force Shield" increases this to 2 mana/tick (as well as absorbing more damage).

(6) Mana Regen Buffs from classes:

As noted above, the Enchanter "Clarity" line, which all other classes look to for mana regeneration, does not stack with the "Lich" series of spells. However, the "Gift" line, which increases your mana pool as well as a small mana regen increase at higher levels, does stack with our "Lich" series. This provides a 1-2 mana/tick regeneration.

Druid buffs, at high levels, provide a mana regeneration that stacks with the Lich line. These are the Protection/Blessing series of spells which provide 6 to 8 mana/tick.

The Beastlord's Spiritual line provides another set of mana regeneration buffs which stack with Lich and druid buffs and provide 3 - 9 mana/tick.

Bards receive numerous songs which help their groups (and sometimes other groups they're not in) to regeneration mana faster. Their first song starts at level 20 and goes right up to level 65, providing a mana regeneration from 2 - 21 mana/tick. However, it is believed that a bard's skill in instruments, the instrument itself and level affect these regeneration numbers upwards.

(7) One-Shot Mana Regeneration

The summoned mage item "Rod of the Mystical Transvergence" (called "modrod"), converts 450 hp to 300 mana. The rod has 3 charges and is NO RENT.

Necromancers receive a "twitch" line of spells which gives their mana to another caster. The ratio of mana lost:given is fairly bad (3:1 or so), but useful for emergencies when spells are needed. The "twitch" line dumps anywhere from 60 to 150 mana per casting onto the receiving character. Necromancers may, but will almost never, cast this on one another.

A necromancer mana tap spell called "Mind Wrack" steals mana from a caster mob and gives each group member 300 mana. It costs 600 mana to cast, but returns 300 for a net of 300 mana/casting. Useful both to reduce a mob's ability to cast spells, as well as a quick mana boost for your group.

For the cost of an Essence Emerald, necromancers can cast a spell which returns 1000 mana to his/her mana pool at level 55. This is very rarely cast, as most necromancers prefer to conserve their Essence Emeralds for resurrections.

Shadowknights, a related class, receive a high-level spell which steals both health and mana from a mob and gives it to each member of the group to the tune of 200 health and 100 mana per casting.

(8) Theoretical Maximum

For the sake of curiosity, the following theoretical maximum mana regeneration for a level 65 necromancer sitting (or riding a mount), but excluding one-shot mana regeneration, would be:

4 (innate sitting) + 25 (meditate) + 3 (AA) + 15 (FT) + 5 (PoT gear) + 50 (Lich line) + 2 (Force Shield) + 2 (enchanter buff) + 8 (druid buff) + 9 (beastlord buff) + 21 (bard song)

= 144 mana/tick

Not too shabby!

Edit: 03-12-28 with corrections and additions.

[illitcro]

Great Guide! This gets my vote to be sticky'd.

Nicely laid out, solid, sound information, just a great post!
________
ZX900F (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Kawasaki_ZX900F)

[Keystone]

add an aura of eternity clicky or quarm shoulders, which stack with anything except other clicked mana-regen....also your forgetting about gift of brilliance which does stack with lich.

[Majordeath]

For Mental Clarity 3 you listed 6 AA for 3 mana. It needs to be 12 AA (2+4+6).
Also there is Mind and Body Rejuvenation for 1 mana/tick at the cost of 5 AA. Requires Mental Clarity 3 and Natural Healing 3 (24 AA total).
The Bard mana songs are able to go higher than 21 per tick but depends on musical instrument, skill, and level.
This next is debatable but I have read on a few MB's that mana users get 1 mana/tick standing 1-59 and than get another at 60, 62or63, and 65 for a total of 4 mana/tick standing at 65th level.
All in All the "max" is very good for us Necro's. It's why the "lesser" classes think of us as "copper tops" :rolleyes:

[Nox]

Thank you all for the replies, additions and corrections. A few things--

* I couldn't find the 'Body and Mind Rejuvenation' AA for necromancers. Neither Castersrealm nor Magelo lists this as a Necro-capable ability. From what I can tell, this is an AA for hybrids.

* I'll have to do a bit more digging, maybe at eqdiva.com, to see the effect of skills/instruments/level on the bard mana songs.

* Standing/sitting regen levels at 60+ seem to be disputed, but not by more than a point or two. I'll stick with my current numbers to err on the side of caution.

* Not having experience with the uber high-end PoP planar items, I'm assuming the "Quarm Shoulders" refers to Shawl of Eternal Forces (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=28661) with the "Maelin's Methodical Mind" effect. Just so I'm clear -- this is a clickable effect which adds a buff that regens 8 mana and 5 hp/tick, and stacks with all the others listed above?

Thanks again. :)

[Vumr]

Outstanding, you see this information many times but very seldom-consolidated in one spot. Thank you

[Keystone]

yah sorry thats what i meant by quarm shoulders, also you were right mind and body rejuv isn't a caster aa)

[deathtognomes]

Bard song caps at 21 mana/tick, instruments/AA effect the HP regen portion only.

Just to cause some trouble:

Shaman Mana Regen:

Innate:4
Meditate:25
MC3:3
VoQ:18
Bard Song:21
FT15:15
BL Crack:9
Po9/Bo9:8

Canni4 gives 81 mana/cast for 148HP

Iksar/Troll HP regen at 65, with Regen3=27/tick
Add Replenishment=52
Add Replenishment, BL Crack, and Bardsong with Epic:98HP/Tick
Add max item regen:133

I cast of Cann4 per tick adds 81Mana and costs a net loss of 96HP
With max hp regen: 81/Mana for a net loss of 15HP

Torpor/Quiesence with SCRM maxed adds 1800HP, over 6 ticks, its stacks with all other regen, so you heal a total of 2598HP in 6 ticks.

2598/15=173 Casts of Cann4 to require a heal with Torpor/Quiesence.
173x81=14,013 Mana, minus 200 for the heal needed to maintain full health= 13,813 Mana per 174 Ticks (takes 6 seconds to cast Torpor)

13,813/174=79 Mana/tick

Cann5AA adds 1200 mana for 1950HP, with a 3 minute refresh
Torpor+max regen=2598 heal
1200 mana - 200 mana for Torpor/Qui (more heal than needed, but best one to use) = 1000 mana

1000 mana/30 tick refresh = 33 Mana/Tick


----------------------------------------------------------------

Innate:4
Meditate:25
MC3:3
VoQ:18
Bard Song:21
FT15:15
BL Crack:9
Po9/Bo9:8
Cann4:79
Cann5:33

4+25+3+18+21+15+9+8+79+33=215 Mana/tick....Or, 66% better than a necro! Woot, go shamans.

[Nox]

Yes, it's quite impressive... for the effort involved. They have their canni-dancing to do. A necro, once the various buffs are cast, doesn't have to do anything but sit there. :)

[deathtognomes]

Oh, and to further the trouble:

Top 4 Shaman DoTs, DPS wise:

Bane:420/tick
Blood of Saryn:320/tick
Scourge of Nife: 279/tick
Anethma:278/tick
Total:1297/tick

Top 4 Necro DoTs, DPS wise:

Horror:430/tick
Blood of Thule:325/tick
Funeral Pyre:261/tick
Saryrn's Kiss:200/tick
Total:1216/tick

Shaman DoTs cost a total of 324 Mana/Tick for all 4
Necro DoTs cost a total of 271 Mana/Tick for all 4

Assuming a 25% efficiancy on Cann4 do to casting other spells, and a 100% efficiency on Cann5, Shaman mana regen is ~156/tick

Now lets play with DPS on a big raid mob:

Assume 6000 Mana manapools, no focuses, no specializations

From FoM to OOM the shaman will take 35 ticks to go OOM, doing ~45.5K damage
From FoM to OOM the necro will take 47 ticks to go OOM, doing ~57.5K damage

In a 3.5 Minute or shorter fight, the shaman does 216DPS
In a 3.5 Minute or shorter fight, the necro does 203 DPS

It takes the shaman 27 Ticks to med to FoM
It takes the necro 42 Ticks to med to FoM

Now, lets use the best DoTs that each class can maintain CONSTANLY, without ever losing mana.

Shaman:

Pox of Bertox+Scourge of Nife+Breath of Ulthor+Blood of Saryrn=846 damage/tick

(This requires a 63% Cann4 efficiency, which is easily obtainable with the long durations of most of these dots.)

Necro:

Splurt+Dark Plague+Embracing Darkness+Horror=733 damage/tick

Shaman sustained DoT dps:141
Necro sustained DoT dps:122

Looks like Shaman are not only the kings of Mana regen, but also the kings of DoTs too.

[deathtognomes]

Also, of note:

There is no canni-dance, 99% of raid targets are outdoors now, and mounts eliminate canni-dance.

Also, anywhere mounts can not be used, the necro won't be sitting anyways, due to aggro issues at a raid, so both lose the same amount of mana-regen.

[deathtognomes]

Originally posted by Nox@Dec 29 2003, 04:31 AM
Yes, it's quite impressive... for the effort involved. They have their canni-dancing to do. A necro, once the various buffs are cast, doesn't have to do anything but sit there. :)
I like the effort involved.

Lets say we both have 4k mana, and run oom on a bad pull while soloing.

Lich does no good, since you dont have the mana to pull, and without a tap, you will run oohealth rather rapidly.

Lets say you are iksar, with only self buffs.

2k Hp, 4k mana, 27hp/tick hp regen

With lich, you gain:
Innate:4
Med:25
Lich:50
FS:2
81 mana and lose 36HP/tick

It will take 28 ticks to lose 1/2 your health, with a gain of 2250 mana.

Now med till you are at 75% health, w/o lich..

19 ticks go by, 75% health now, with a gain of 589 mana.

Now, after 47 Ticks, you are at 75m and 70m



Now, I recover from a bad pull:

2.5khp, 4k mana total, 52hp/tick regen (self buffed with replenishment + focus)

I gain:
Innate:4
Med:0 (25 if I do the can-dance or am on a mount, lets assume a 50/50 split on that, so 12 mana)
KEI:14
20 mana/tick for no loss in HP

I hit Cann5, then Torpor, in 2 Ticks, I gain 1000 mana and am at full health again
Then I can4 to 50% health, cast Torpor, then can while its in effect.

It takes 13 ticks to lose 50% health, 1 tick to cast torpor, and 6 ticks for it to fade, with 6 more cann4's, thats 19 can4's, and 20 total ticks, still no loss of HP.

Thats 1739 mana in 20 ticks, still 100% health.

In 13 more ticks, I am FoM, cast Torpor again, can4 while it ticks to regain mana used to cast it.

So in 35 Ticks, I am FoM and at 100% health, with Can5 refreshed and ready to use agian.

Again, shaman have higher mana regen, higher DoT dps in short fights, higher sustained DoT dps, and can go from OOM to FoM in 35ticks, while necros take 77...

Yes, OVER twice as long.

[Emperson]

excellent post... i shall sticky this!

oh yes and necros get med at 4 not 8 hehe.. just a lil correction

and yeah i havent played a SHM yet but thats my next char on the to do list... so im not sure how some of their spells and abilities work so im out of that discussion.... well GL hehe

[Nox]

deathtognomes,

Your posting has drifted beyond the scope of my original posting -- efficient use of mana to maximize pulls, the application of DoTs, solo vs. group, planar vs. LDON, and the like is another topic entirely. Factors, such as zone, type of mobs, total mana and hp pool, gear (like various hp regen gear) will all play factor, with player ability and understanding of the class abilities having the most effect on gameplay.

Your highly contrived example with assumptions demonstrates that shamans have an edge -- in that particular situation. However, it's just that, a hypothetical. In-game play will fall well below that as most necromancers will not be level 65, with all the AA, and all the gear that I listed in my 'for the sake of curiosity' section in the original posting. Maybe some readers here are that -- and kudos to them. Certainly I don't fall in that category, and doubt I ever will.

My posting wasn't meant to answer 'who is the uberest class of them all', but to give prospective and current necromancers an easy-to-digest summary of what goes into mana recovery.

Perhaps a 'How to best use your mana' post will come in the future. :) There, I believe much more criticism can be levelled as gameplay, gear and all the other stuff I mentioned above, will affect how one manages mana and vice-versa.

[Majordeath]

Originally posted by Nox@Dec 28 2003, 08:45 AM
Thank you all for the replies, additions and corrections. A few things--

* I couldn't find the 'Body and Mind Rejuvenation' AA for necromancers. Neither Castersrealm nor Magelo lists this as a Necro-capable ability. From what I can tell, this is an AA for hybrids.

* I'll have to do a bit more digging, maybe at eqdiva.com, to see the effect of skills/instruments/level on the bard mana songs.


Doh! You are correct. Shooting off my mouth again.
Mind and Body Rejuvenation is a Hybrid ability.
Bard song was word of mouth from friend. It is incorrect.
I'll try to be more accurate in my future posts. :rolleyes:

[Vavra]

Great post Nox, good job. :D

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by deathtognomes@Dec 29 2003, 12:01 AM
Just to cause some trouble:

Shaman Mana Regen:

13,813/174=79 Mana/tick

Cann5AA adds 1200 mana for 1950HP, with a 3 minute refresh
Woot, go shamans.
Thought this was a necro board, go find your own Shammy board!!!

j/k

:huh:

[KarmaKeeper]

awesome post Nox! thanks for putting it down somewhere i can lookup and dont have to add it myself =) ... now as for the little deathtognomes flamer :

in response for the need for flames, oh biast shammy lover (hey at least you see the advantage of the iksarian race of dragonchildren, so i cant say your a TOTAL fool. i think you just like drama or something to cause a flame war)

that was great, but the theory was ill concieved and flawed. no shaman i know likes taking the time to canni and will avoid it if possible. every smart necromancer i know always has lich on in a less then FM situation. generally many shamans dont begin to canni until LOM, or after a few spells. meanwhile necromancers pumping away their steady mana regen every tick from square 1 at the fight. You also forgot to factor in at least a minimum fizzle for canni, as it will fizzle.

sure with that crazy little math formula the shammy dots are more dps. however thats not really the way dots work for most of the game. for most of the game, solo or group, for efficiency reason, you limit yourself to 2-3 dots per mob. the necromancer clearly has the top two dots in the game from the evidence listed. also we can also factor in the resistance checks on the dots. i do believe INT casters get better resist checks on certain spells, however i have to research shaman resists checks on dots first, but im willing to bet we win in that category as well. also, shammy dots are ALL disease and poison. meanwhile, we can switch it up between poison, disease, fire, magic, and undead.

also you forgot one extremely crucial piece of data : the pet. our pet craps on the shammy pet, which only dual wields with weapons and tops out at lvl 59 with 59 dmg. these are all very real and basic factors.

the amount of AA for canni 5... if necromancers applied that AA to themselves they get lifeburn or uber pet abilities. so you could tank with the 65 pet until it turns tail then bust out saryns companion for the assassinate finish with the multiple pet suspend AA. or use a lifeburn for a fini blow. or take your last victims corpse for a few precious seconds beat the hell out of the mob. the aa factor in our favor is something you didnt even consider.

face it, necromancers are the best solo class in the game, even with theoretical impractical formulae cooked up in some shammy-favoring-biast mind. also the AA to get canni 5 is outrageous and takes over venerable, meanwhile a necro much like myself who wont turn aa on until 60+ will still benefit fully from the lich line of spells associated only with player level.

oh yeah, what about feign death? do shammies get that? oh yeah, thats right, NO. so can you wipe your dot agro if need be? not that i see. Can you split pull? with all that mana regen, surely you have extra... i know i do. can you give it to any other PC? nope nope, that would be necromancers wouldnt it? and our heals do damage at the same time, increacing the mana efficieny into a plane of different measurement, a spell that does two things for the price of 1.

also, it was abundantly clear the mana efficiency of our dots to yours was much better, leading me to a safer feeling of choosing this class for its raw power.

more on this subject in my own little rant =)

put plain and simply tho, this is a forum for necromancers if you want to share that information share it in a shammy forum not in a necro forum where your bound to piss people off and get the truth rubbed in your arrogant face

ahh, i feel better. the class is liberated. im not here to trash talk shammies, but dont try and say you can solo better then a necromancer. you cant. it cannot be done more efficiently with as little effort as the necromancer.

*returns the crown to the rightful kings* :P

[deathtognomes]

Its funny that you claim that necros are the "solo-kings" when there is not one mob in the game that you can solo, that a shaman can't, yet there are plenty that a shaman can, that a necro can't.

List of my personal soloed mobs:
Guardian Wurms in Skyfire
Guardian Wurms in VP
Cliff Golems
HoT wurms and Drakes (with help of another "soloing" shaman, who would take the add on double pulls, tho didn't help with my kills)
Lodi
Cazel
Severilous
Emp. Chottal
Mycoid Sporeking
Tons of WW dragons
Kael Arena mobs


I would like to see even one mob that can be soloed by a necro that can't be soloed by a shaman.


Int casters do NOT get better resist checks on the same spell. Necros have a few dots with a SMALL negative resist check, but that is countered easily by the fact that ALL my spells have a -55 resist check, or higher, after Malo(s)-ini.

Shamans have Magic based dots as well, so the only real thing that is missing is fire based ones, as we get magic, poison, and disease that are just as good, if not better than yours (disease is better for shaman).

Cold based dots? Where? I don't see one cold based dot that a level 65 necro would waste a gem slot on. That leave you with magic, poison, disease and fire. I can't think of ANYTHING that fire lands on that poison/disease won't. All typical "cold" mobs in Velious are normal poison and disease resistant, so having fire based dots is next to moot.

Ok, lets compare nukes, shall we.

Shaman nukes BLOW...dots are inefficient/unwanted/useless on raids (mobs can only have 30 dots/debuffs on them; slow/tash/malosini/ro/cripple takes 5, possibly 7 depending on the druid debuffs, so that leaves 23 slots for all dots, thats only 6 people, with 4 dots each, before you get a "did not take hold" message)

Best Shaman Single Target Nuke:
Velium Strike: 925 Damage for 300 mana, 7.8 Second cast, 2.5 Second recast-Over 90DPS chain cast, over 3:1 ratio

Best Necro Single Target Nuke:
Neurotoxin: 1300 Damage for 465 Mana, 6 second cast, 2.5 second recast-Over 150DPS chain cast, 2.8:1 ratio

Best Shaman Rain Spell:
Tears of Saryrn: 1950 Damage for 450 Mana, 6 second cast, 2.5 recast-Over 108DPS chain cast, 4.3:1 ratio

Best Necro Rain Spell:
None

Best Shaman DD output:
Tears of Saryrn + Torrent of Poison: 3570 Damage for 830 Mana, over 198 DPS chain cast.

I would love to see a necro solo a 500+ hitter that summons. The day a necro does that, and does it faster, safer, and with less mana use than a shaman is the day that necros can claim to be the top soloer.

Oh, and lets both put up our LFG tag, and see who gets an invite first, too.

[Keystone]

You want a mother fucking cookie or something champ?....I'm still waiting on you to show me a mob i can't solo that you can because it sure as shit isn't on that list.

[deathtognomes]

Lets see...

Can I split Pull? Nope, but I can malo, slow and root, and land a 3500+ damage dot on the add, and let it bake while I kill the first.

Can I FD to shed aggro? Nope, but I have nearly 1300AC and over 3700HP, with only self buffs, higher defense skill (which is should be renamed "Avoidance" skill, since defense skill determines ONLY how often mobs "miss" in combination with level difference), and higher dodge skill. I have very often been the MT in LDoN normal since its easier to have me maintain aggro rather than have the tank taunt it off me, healing me only is better than healing me + warrior/sk/pally. I don't need to FD. Oh, what about things that hit hard? Whats Hard? 500? 600? I SOLO things that hit for OVER 600, and that with ME tanking, and ME healing ME.

Can I give my Mana to another?? Nope...but who would you give your mana to? The druid? No. The wizzie? No. The Chanter? Maybe. The Cleric? Sure. Lets see...cleric says "LoM, need a few to med" So I respond with "NPS, I got the heals, pull away" and we are IMMEDIATELY back to pulling, no waiting, no HORRIBLY inefficient pumps. The chanter low? Fine, NPS, I can easily CC 2 adds with slow and root. I can't remember the last time I had a chanter in my group tho, for that very reason.

Your pet owns mine? Sure...unbuffed. The level 61 shaman pet, which hits for 60 btw, fully buffed with my buffs is a mean lil bugger, and with slow and a constant quiesence on him, can out-tank yours by FAR. Its amazing how much better a pet can tank with 300+ HP/Tick regen on at all times.

I also can get suspend pet, and I get the multi-pet swarm AA, which you don't. Which does MORE damage than the average lifeburn, and can do it every few minutes, rather than every few hours.

Oh, and most of the time, I don't go all out on Canni. I maintain about 90% health, hitting canni ONLY to counter my health regen. Doing that gets my just over 20 mana a tick, with damn near no work (on key pressed every 4 ticks, most often 6 presses at once, then nothing for 2 mins or so). Add that to KEI, and it comes up to 35 mana/tick or so, with no more work than seduction of saryrn.

Seduction of Saryrn with Kiss or Saryrn used to heal, with Kiss of Saryrn doing ~1000 healing gains ~27 mana/tick (does damage too) If you have enough HP to lose 2000 and not worry then it goes up to 37 mana or so, but most necros I know have about 2-2500 unbuffed at 65 with average gear, and even with 3500hp, having 2000 of it gone is a bad thing.

So, yea, Seduction of Saryrn has a SMALL edge on canni, when canni is used in "lazy-mode"....but canni can be pressed to do FAR more mana/tick than it does in lazy-mode, SoS can not.

[Schaeffer]

You need a girlfriend or a shammy board of your own to post on. Umb can you make a shammy board for this guy so we don't have to pt up with his ego anymore?

[Keystone]

Originally posted by deathtognomes@Jan 4 2004, 06:43 PM
Lets see...

Can I split Pull? Nope, but I can malo, slow and root, and land a 3500+ damage dot on the add, and let it bake while I kill the first.

Can I FD to shed aggro? Nope, but I have nearly 1300AC and over 3700HP, with only self buffs, higher defense skill (which is should be renamed "Avoidance" skill, since defense skill determines ONLY how often mobs "miss" in combination with level difference), and higher dodge skill. I have very often been the MT in LDoN normal since its easier to have me maintain aggro rather than have the tank taunt it off me, healing me only is better than healing me + warrior/sk/pally. I don't need to FD. Oh, what about things that hit hard? Whats Hard? 500? 600? I SOLO things that hit for OVER 600, and that with ME tanking, and ME healing ME.

Can I give my Mana to another?? Nope...but who would you give your mana to? The druid? No. The wizzie? No. The Chanter? Maybe. The Cleric? Sure. Lets see...cleric says "LoM, need a few to med" So I respond with "NPS, I got the heals, pull away" and we are IMMEDIATELY back to pulling, no waiting, no HORRIBLY inefficient pumps. The chanter low? Fine, NPS, I can easily CC 2 adds with slow and root. I can't remember the last time I had a chanter in my group tho, for that very reason.

Your pet owns mine? Sure...unbuffed. The level 61 shaman pet, which hits for 60 btw, fully buffed with my buffs is a mean lil bugger, and with slow and a constant quiesence on him, can out-tank yours by FAR. Its amazing how much better a pet can tank with 300+ HP/Tick regen on at all times.

I also can get suspend pet, and I get the multi-pet swarm AA, which you don't. Which does MORE damage than the average lifeburn, and can do it every few minutes, rather than every few hours.

Oh, and most of the time, I don't go all out on Canni. I maintain about 90% health, hitting canni ONLY to counter my health regen. Doing that gets my just over 20 mana a tick, with damn near no work (on key pressed every 4 ticks, most often 6 presses at once, then nothing for 2 mins or so). Add that to KEI, and it comes up to 35 mana/tick or so, with no more work than seduction of saryrn.

Seduction of Saryrn with Kiss or Saryrn used to heal, with Kiss of Saryrn doing ~1000 healing gains ~27 mana/tick (does damage too) If you have enough HP to lose 2000 and not worry then it goes up to 37 mana or so, but most necros I know have about 2-2500 unbuffed at 65 with average gear, and even with 3500hp, having 2000 of it gone is a bad thing.

So, yea, Seduction of Saryrn has a SMALL edge on canni, when canni is used in "lazy-mode"....but canni can be pressed to do FAR more mana/tick than it does in lazy-mode, SoS can not.
You are one clueless arrogant fuck... the necro version reads as follows

Lets see...

Can I split Pull? Yes, but why should I when i can root cook the add while I kill the first.

Can I FD to shed aggro? Yep, but if i don't want to i have 1100ac and over 5500hp UNBUFFED well over 6khp self buffed, sure lower defense skill but why should i be getting hit anyway. I have also very often been the MT in LDoN adventures because they are excrutiatingly boring and the mobs hit about as hard as a gnat landing on your left testicle. I also don't "need" to FD. Oh, what about things that hit hard? Whats Hard? 500? 600? I still haven't seen a single thing that you have solo'd that I haven't....and btw that's with ME tanking and ME healing ME.

Can I give my mana to another? That is the stupidest and most innefficient use of mana possible the fact that you even list this states your supreme level of ignorance. If the cleric for some stupid reason "needs" to med for a little while why not root cook or maybe get a cleric that doesn't fucking suck. Chanter low? nps i can EASILY CC multiple adds with root or aggro kiting..

Your pet owns mine? Sure..... who gives a fuck...

I also can get suspend pet...whoa whatcha know.. You get a swarm aa, hey whatcha know we get a Wake the Dead aa. Also, I severely doubt that your swarm aa does even 1/2 of the dmg of my lifeburn.

Canni is great if you don't use the shit out of it once again shows your a model of severe mental retardation. When your throwing your #s around about SoS and KoS involving mana regen your also forgetting one thing..HP regeneration? Everyone doesn't lose the entire whatever per tick due to item mods, or natural regen or whatever, so once again...your off.

In conclusion your a clueless idiot who has made 1 valid point, that canni is > SoS, however you also made the point very clear that you lack the brainpower to use it to your advantage.

have an nice day~

[Wasded]

I would Just like to say thank you for throwing this information out. I never really realized how much we gain. And was also unaware of the gift line from the chanter. Guess I should once in awhile group hahahaha.

[NeSikWay]

well, not sure why we are having this discussion on a necro board, but oh well, first we need to teach the shammy lover to read.

MR.SHAMMYLOVER....(aka deathtognomes) This board is titled necrotalk, this means we talk about necros, not shammys, we arent interested in numbers comparing the two, we have choosen our evil ways. We don't mind you have better nukes, nor do I care who you solo, it may be a good think you can, you might make a group run for cover. We promote the use of necromancy here and the evil races which they can be use to portray those those tendencies. I don't knock shammies, nor their races, nor there ablities within the game. Necros have alot of ablities and a verusitily like no other class. Most that post here find this interesting, but I find it boring and misplaced because if I wanted to know about Shammies I would go to a Shammy board not a necro board, and nor would I post on a shammy board that necros can solo better. even if they could. May I suggest the Quellious collective flame board to start your flame.

[Martor]

2 quick things...

1) I just laughed when I I saw Keystones response simply because I remember checking out his equip earlier. Now to adress the Shaman/Necro issue, they are two completly different classes, but, to forget the statistical crap, assuming both classes are played by people who know how to use their abilities, Necro's are superior soloers and Shammys are superior in groups. Nough said. Oh wait, to avoid a flame, due to the abundence of abilities that a necro has in relation to diversity (jack of all trades as said in relevant post) necro's are more well rounded for soloing.

2) I just started up EQ again and have a 31 necro, now I used to play EQ back in the pre-Kunark days, and I must admit, back then I remember being able to solo red's (not at higher levels of course) while a group was struggling to take a yellow con. Now the reason Necro's were so utterly superior in those days is two reasons, (1) they were simply unbalanced in our favor, but you all know about that. However, the often overlooked reason (2) is that back than the uberist weapon was like a Lamentation which was 1hs 8/18, crafted was uber, and a fbss (thats flowing black silk sash like 12% haste or something) was a pricy item. So casters (particulary necros) had the advantage because meeles got ripped apart with their 20 AC chest plates and Necro's had the fastest mana regen rate of all.

Just my two cents, sorry for the spelling/grammar.
*Thanks for making this a rather encouraging board, it's nice to see flames and meaningless cussing replaced by knowlege, experiance and (tears) brotherhood. (umm of death that is... :unsure: )

Martor
31 Gnome Necro
Xegony

[Keystone]

dunno what's funny about my equip...but i'd like to see the shaman fuck post a mob he can solo that i can't............................................. ..































































o still waiting?!



































































me too~

[Martor]

Originally posted by Keystone@Jan 6 2004, 07:05 AM
dunno what's funny about my equip...
The funny thing was hearing a shammy boast over and over and than looking at your post and noticing how your outfit just utterly humbles 99+% people who play everquest, which, undoubtably uncludes Gnomekillerboy.

I just found it utterly halarious thats all. Nice loot, once again, Keystone.

[Lilliput]

lol when shaman and necros attack (each other) 4!

i love this kind of thing my class is better than your class etc etc,

Just wanted to add my 2cp, I play a lvl 60+ shaman as my main, and a lvl 50 Necro as a good Alt and I love them both each can solo as well as the other each of them never has mana problems because of there self mana regen, when i am playing my Shaman I wish I had FD and when I am playing my necro and I FD I wish I had SoW :D both classes are as good as each other IMHO. They are so different yet the at the same time so alike. :blink:

[Jebasiz]

I have yet to see a raid dps parse where shaman are above necromancers. I also highly doubt a shaman is going to outdamage an equivalent necromancer in most situations. The thing about shaman dots is...they have a poison line and a disease line(maybe one more now with ldon) we have poison disease, magic, fire. So ya...they may have a couple decent dots, but they're slow acting for the most part. Most of the time we'll outdamage them by a good amount.

Until shown otherwise I'll be waiting (like keystone) for "the post" where a shaman solo's something I can't. BTW thanks for the little laugh, I don't think I've ever heard someone say, I'm so good I solo kael arena giants before...that's truly pathetic.

That list might of been impressive....pre-pop.


Jeb

[Jebasiz]

ohh...I'd like to see a shaman stack 200+ dps on a raid mob...and live to refresh them.

Jeb

[KarmaKeeper]

i also love how every single post deathtognoes adds is exceedingly situational. his theories only apply in the small, lonely little world he is living in. he has my sympathy that he must justify himself ona necro board when he is a shaman who feels so bad about himself that unless he boasts how muchbetter he is making other feel worse is the only way he can get his kicks anymore.

and the posts afterwards also make perfect sense, we are similar classes, with slight differences. basically shammies are the priest dotters and necros are the intellignece healers.

who the hell cares, both classes played by a player with skill are eceedingly useful in a number of given situations. i fail to see the validity of your argument if you have nothing to prove. i didnt go to your shaman board to post that i am better, because i know i have nothing to prove and am solid in my choice of class.

so go get yourself a girl man, or a man, or whatever thing floats your boat. just stop posting flames here. unless that is your shits & giggles, in which case, you have my sympathy.

have a good day =) oh an go rez yourself... oh wait if you had fd you wouldnt need rez... oh yeah thats right, its useless, since you cannot die, right?

and where are those mobs that you can solo that we cant? do enlighten me. you see, fear is like charm, and mez, in that the mob cannot summon you as long as you beat your fear timer refresh.

silly shaman, this is a necro board. post your silly theories elsewhere...

sigh, and feel sorry for me, for having to respond to this

[Jebasiz]

~still waiting

Jeb

[Nox]

As the originator of this thread, I have to say that the lame attempt to derail it (sadly, a successful attempt) with trolling speaks more of the poster than the material he is arguing.

As has been pointed out, this is a necro board, where necros help one another to play better, smarter or even just to convince undecided players to give necromancers a try. The only thing accomplished with weighing in with statements like '66% better than a necro! Woot, go shamans!', is looking like a troll -- which was done admirably.

As I mentioned in the very first post, the article was directed to necromancers who wanted to know more about mana regeneration. That's it. No, 'ha-ha, so-and-so class sucks because they're not l337 like us,' crap. Just the facts and one small hypothetical situation at the end.

You want to educate people what can best maximize a shaman's mana regen? Got news for you pal: this is neither the place, nor the way to convince people, least of all those of us on this board.

Finally, if you're going to flame necromancers and promote your own class, have the balls to start your own thread and put your name on the article listing as the originator, not hide it in an unrelated topic.

[Keystone]

Well, or he could just have the balls to post something he can solo that i can't....... i'd be pleased with that

[Jebasiz]

I would love to see a necro solo a 500+ hitter that summons. The day a necro does that, and does it faster, safer, and with less mana use than a shaman is the day that necros can claim to be the top soloer.

/yawn

Jeb

[Fizzleplink]

Very nice write-up, thanks!

Er, the mana one, not the shaman v. necro ones. It's a wash, really.

[Umbrello]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Jan 4 2004, 09:25 PM
Umb can you make a shammy board for this guy so we don't have to pt up with his ego anymore?
I dont make boards for assholes who hijack my board. Very tempted to ban this crackpot, overzealous shammy enthusiast. But to be fair, he is presenting another side, granted in the COMPLETE WRONG AREA.

So, gnomehater(also a gnome by the way), next time post your OWN thread instead of hijacking a perfectly good unrelated discussion. Remember youre posting on a necro board, obviously to start shit, I know if youre that lame and have absolutely no life I'm sure there is nothing I can do to stop you. Ban you, and I'm sure you'll make another account, so here is what I'm proposing...

I will make a flames area, where shit can get whacky like this. Keep your trash talking in there so myself and the others dont have to look at it in usefull threads.

If this continues in this thread I may need to turn on moderation for every post, which would be a huge pain in my ass, as I dont have time to review youre shammy shit.

Enough said, lets resume discussion about NECRO mana regen...guys, please dont give in to anymore of his taunting, he's just trying to derail a perfectly good thread and as hard as it is, I know I wanted to talk some jive, we need to ignore and keep on track...I'll try to watch this for a bit and I'll remove anymore of his shammy pumping posts.

[Umbrello]

P.S.

Sorry I missed this for so long, Ive been busy and its hard for me to keep up. Next time somone should report this shit to me and I would have taken care of it sooner.

P.S.S.

...Ive calmed down a little bit now, sorry for all the swearing. I need to behave better as admin, my apologies...

Heres the new area I made for people like gnomekillerdude...

The Inferno (http://www.necrotalk.com/index.php?showforum=15)

[NecrossB]

What about A necro Pet Vs. a Shaman pet and what about FD when trouble arrises?

Nm, i just missed like the second and third pages haha. It's great to see people passionate about their characters even tho they are not Necro's. I say, you can have the best character in the game in your own mind and everything is hunky dorey. Let's just not fight about it in front of the kiddies :). I love my Necro since day one, I have a Shaman also, but it just turned out I like playing my necro better, there is just seomething about charming an undead mob in a LDON adventure and having it tank for us haha. Anyway, good posts everyone.

[Alaster]

What the dumb shaman forgot to factor in is the fact that all rain spells have a innate 20% resist rate. Your DPS will suck when chain casting rains, and in an exp group why chain rains. Mob push is just to great. It's not worth positioning pets and crap like that because mobs just die to damn fast. Also, have you checked our DoT line lately? Do you know what a resist adjust is? Find out if you don't. That makes our damage more efficient than you. 1 Horror and a couple nukes is enough to put your damage to shame.

Guardian Wurms in Skyfire
Guardian Wurms in VP
Cliff Golems
HoT wurms and Drakes (with help of another "soloing" shaman, who would take the add on double pulls, tho didn't help with my kills)
Lodi
Cazel
Severilous
Emp. Chottal
Mycoid Sporeking
Tons of WW dragons
Kael Arena mobs
Please tell me you didn't list Kunark mobs in that list. Kunark mobs are trivial to a solo Necro due to the fact that the way Kunark era mobs were designed.

Cliff Golems? ROTFL. STFU please. That mob isn't even a challenge, and what do you do when you pull the guards with it? Zone? Lol I just FD split it.

Lodi is soloed by Enchanters with DC pets. I know I tank better than a DC mob.

Cazel is easily tanked with Lifetaps. Just put Dark Plague and Pyro on him and

[Origomali]

deathtognomes,

You are forgetting the most important factor of all...and remember, this is from someone who played the first beta mud(d) of EQ (with his best friend, an IT/CP specialist) long before you even heard of the game......

Verant/Sony invented the Shaman character for those too afraid to play a Necromancer due to faction issues....yes, whiners who wanted to be a "Good" Necro.

That being said, if you are playing your Shaman as a pure DPS character, I think I'd win in the <LFG> war as most groups would want you to spend your mana on buffs, slows and heals......leave the killing to those who have it as their true nature, those who were never afraid of the challenge of playing an evil toon/race.

BTW...if you doubt I have played this game longer than you, I'll name the one RL profession that was in the original EQ but was dropped for obvious reasons.

Can you?

I have nothing against Shamans or the people that play them as many of my friends do but it is the ones like (I wish I was as handsome as a Gnome that is why I am so jealous my name is:) deathtognomes that b*tch and cry to Sony so much that Necromancers get beat down with the Nerf-stick.

deathtognomes, go cry to Sony some more and maybe they'll give you a summon and rez AA....all combined in one as it would be a shame that you have to cast twice....and instead of using a component like an EE or coffin....it would generate 200 plat each cast to fatten your bank.

I apologize to my Necro Brothers and Sisters, but I am tired and his tripe made me irrate.

[Fizzleplink]

For the record, when I'm shamaning I use my rains heavily in dungeons. Every mob gets Turgur's, Tears of Saryrn, and our crappy 900pt 9-second ice nuke. 2875 points on most mobs. After Malosinia, it's about 1 in 4 mobs that resists a wave of Tears. Things often die right as my nuke hits.

I was using Bane + Velium Strike (3025 dmg) but I ended up tanking more than the warriors did. Tears provides excellent damage and far less agro.

Quite honestly, I enjoy both classes equally.

Can we stop trying to measure dick sizes now?

[kilalotofnomes]

his name is to similar to mine

but mine is still better, oh yes

[necropheliack]

great guide

[Volstadd]

Ok Great!
As our admin has dutifully told us, this shammy vs Necro War should be moved to the Flamer section (Flamers ha!) Anyways, as a Gnome Necromancer of level 42, I was looking for some type of regen gear since i LOVE CoB and leave it on almost always (you know cutting our down time) Can anyone recommend an item (thru purchase or quest) that would be good for me to save up for/quest for that has good mana/HP regen (either or both would be awesome...I just bought the LDoN regen stone from MistMoore.) Any help would be aprreciated.

Volstadd
Evil Gnome

[Schaeffer]

Check out the gear section

[stukka]

:lol: Deathtognomes ought to make a shammy :lol:

[Keystone]

Originally posted by Fizzleplink@Feb 7 2004, 07:16 AM

Can we stop trying to measure dick sizes now?
Mine's bigger!

[Likkle]

hey, remember that time we were asked to stop talking about this? try reading past the second post before hitting the reply button...

As for the guide, i find it very useful, but could anybody make a as-the-necro-grows type thing, to show what a necro should / could be using at each level? if this has already been posted, im sorry, but i just found this site, and i just started playing a necro, and i love it already.

i know i already made a biting statement about this, but just out of curiosity.. what about druids? shamans have better buffs, apparently solo better, heal the same... what is the druids niche exactly? sorry if this bit is off topic.

[Garb]

Thanks for the info on mana regen, any ideas on mana regen items that a 24 Necro can use (that I won't have to give my first born for)?

[stukka]

hey, remember that time we were asked to stop talking about this? try reading past the second post before hitting the reply button...

And yet you still hit the reply button.... :P

[Likkle]

in regard to the mana regen not to shamans and whatnot

[Jebasiz]

druids cast pot9 and.... and ......and...... hrm PORT! I need some help here fellas!
Not much of a niche heh...

They heal and nuke and stuff too, I think.

[metrika]

Nox,

thank you for an excellient post about mana regen. I had a 65 cleric at one time before I stopped playing and was always concerned about the kinds of info that you posted there. Never have I, in 2 years of this game, seen a post or breakdown that accurate or informative. (Oh, just to add a quick thing in case the stupid shammy is still around, my cleric soloed half those mobs on your list friend...not impressed).

I have chosen to play a necro this time around and am loving the class up to my 29th season. I hope to see more and more posts as I make my way though the boards that are this informative.

Metrika
Necromancer of the 29th season

[Tomandny]

Nevermind :P

I decided to delete what I had.
Good post about Mana.


"Your mana and You" :D a necro's tale.

[Tisumi_Evil^2]

thx for the guid it relly helps me out some stuf i didnt no

[Kriemee Ariver]

Shaman also make a potion called Great Concentration Elixer that stacks with any mindbuff.

[Nekys]

death needed to post his uber shaman drivel here because if he tried it on the shaman crucible boards other shaman would of roasted him on the inaccuracies of his assumptions/conclusions.

That said, with a 65 shaman, in comparison to necro ... basically, both can. How they do it is a bit different. Nuff said. Combined ... now that is an awesome team.

[Vardari]

I love my Shaman...I love my Necro.... I think I'm just addicted to casters with high mana regen.

Yes, in ideal conditions (for the Shaman), a Shaman will regen mana faster than a Necro. However, conditionars are rarely ideal.

There are often times when people are moving (can't Canni), invis (can't Canni), AFK (can't Canni), etc. During those times, a Necro is happily liching away.

As for the DPS comparison... You miss one HUGE point. There is no way that a Shaman would live to put on so many DoTs. Necros can put on the DPS because they can FD off the Aggro. Shamans would be rat-meat in no time.

Raspur -- 60th level Shaman
Vardari -- 65th level Necro

[Nuggruk]

Thanks for the excellent initial post, good to see all that info in one place.

Personally I play 65 (mostly) Time Geared Shaman (since Nov 99) a 65 Cleric (fully) Time Geared (since Feb 2000) and a 65 Necro (phase 1) Time and Elemental geared (since Dec 2002). I levelled all these toons from 0, the only one to have some PL assistance was the Necro and that was nothing major just messing about seeing what I could do - lol didnt really need PLing.

I can solo pretty much anything I want to, including normal LDoNs and almost ...... so close I coulda cryed... Hard LDoNs, Elementals and GoD. For more rapid DPS in LDON I also toss in a gimp geared fully PLed level 61 mage into the mix.

I have to say I find the Necro by far the easiest class to do DPS with, for sure the Shammy can kick out some massive dps but as with all things its entirely situational. If I got a situation where I need (for whatever reason) to stand toe-to-toe then clearly the Shammy wins hands down - no contest. However if I have some room to move then the Necro is the toon of choice.

Have to say I find the Shammy / Necro and Cleric stack wonderfully well, they are entirely complimentary.

So far as who runs out of mana first - lol - unless I am laying the smack down on Quarm or Phase 5 mobs in time, none of them "ever" run out of mana, so who regens it the quickest is a kinda moot point, leastways for me.

Have Fun
Nuggs

[Weyalan]

Another flaming Shaman here ;)

First off, excellent and informative (original) post.

Secondly, Necros are better soloers. There are certain Mobs that are possibly a bit easier for a Shaman to solo (generally summoning mobs because we are probably a little better at "tanking in teh face"), but that doesn't mean that Necros can't solo them: Lodi, for example is probably "easier" for a shaman to solo. conversely, there are mobs that are much easier for a Necro to solo: Sythax in Veksar, for example, can be soloed by any reasonably competent, reasonably geared Necro, whereas only a very few extremely well geared extremely competent Shaman can claim to have soloed Sythax (I know I cannot). I group regularly with a friend who plays a Necro - we have similar standards of gear, similar number of AAs, and he can, for sure, solo plenty of stuff that I couldn't even get close to.

Theoretically Shaman can, perhaps, regen more mana, and theoretically can, perhaps, lay down more DoT dps. Nevertheless, in the "real" (virtual) world, Necros do, in my opinion, have a significant edge over shaman in both departments. The aggro management inherent in FD and the continous and passive nature of Necro mana regen are definitely more of an advantage than the Shaman's theoretical maximums.

The p1$$ing contests about who can solo best always make me laugh. If you need to ask the question, you are probably incapable of understanding the answer.

Sorry to have intruded on your board, but I just wanted to show you that not all shaman are short-sighted a$$-hats

[cascet]

I too am a shammy and would like to apologize for the arrogant 'asshat' (i love that word) that has intruded upon your boards. His views are NOT that of all shammies, and was was completely disrespectful to flame you guys on your own boards.

[Ophidion]

Hi, I am a shaman as well, and i just would like to say that deathtognomes doesn't speak for the shaman community as a whole. I felt it was my duty to register for the sole reason of posting what im about to say since i <3 necros so much.
Necros will always be better at mana regen/sustained DPS output as well as The most efficient single target soloers (wiz would be the best for multiple targets because of their AoE spells such as snare and nukes) for 2 reasons:
(1) Their mana regen is passive, whereas Shaman regen is active. While a necro is regenning their mana, they can cast dots, heal themselves, throw pets at stuff, etc, etc.
Shaman, in order to regen , have to jam on a /cast button or use our aa canni every 3 minutes. Granted, we have more mana regen than any other class, but its only situational.
(2) Necro dots are extremely efficent and have resist checks. Their lvl 63 pet... damn i forget the name.. the rogue pet, can backstab while the necro kites. Granted, shaman pet is pretty decent, and can do 120 dmg in one round of attacks (60/60), but i have yet to see the shaman pet backstab or lifetap any mob.
Shaman CANNOT KITE, unless you have the snare spear from VP and you have already meleed the mob down, or you feel like wasting a charge on your fungus beast gland from the caller event in FG.
Root/Rot is our only way of effectively soloing a mob that is much stronger than us (aka table mobs in fire). While we are root rotting (unless you have clicky root/dot and AA root lands every time, and thats ALL you are using to solo, which you wont) we have to canni and heal ourselves, which sucks up mana fast, especially if a mob breaks root mid canni for example.
Also, Shaman heals only do one thing... HEAL, wheras necros get a lifetap spell that not only heals the necro, but also does a considerable amount of damage.
I did a test to see who could kill a mob faster at the tables in fire and how long would it take for each respective class to be ready to go again. We were only using self buffs for the fights and we both killed the same mob (not same one at the same time, just the same name i think it was A Doomfire Guard... RED con inside C2)
My findings:
Necro kill in 3 minutes.
Shaman kill in 5.5 minutes.
Necro ready to go again: 1.5 minute.
Shaman ready to go again 3.5 minutes.
These numbers are approximates, but they are close to being exact. Based on this data, for me to kill a mob in fire at the tables and be ready for the next one, it takes 9 minutes, whereas it will take a necro of similar stats only 6.5 minutes. AAxp at full on tables mobs = 14%aa a kill... so for me to ding a point, it would take:
Shaman: ~64 minutes
Necro: ~46 minutes
This is assuming no deaths etc.
Granted the necro had about... 1 more FT than me at the time, there was really very little difference in gear. We are both EP geared for the most part with a mana pool hovering around 5100 for me and 5400 for him.
So as you can see it boils down to Necros having less down time, and quicker kills with less mana.. so in effect.. while i personally know i can solo ALMOST anything that a necro can (ill say almost for the benefit of the doubt) and some things they cant (namely kunark dragons)
Hope that helps, and btw die in a fire gnomesmasher.

=Ophidion Ohnos=
=Lvl 65 Prophet=
=EoTD Vazaelle=

[eqphreak]

I know a mob that a NECRO can solo that a SHAMAN cant ..

Remains of Sythrax




I used to play 65 shaman and have teamed up many many times with a necromancer in battle, duoing Howling Stones was an eye opener for me as my buddy didnt have to stop at all to regain mana, but I was constantly asking him to slow down. Here's a clue for gnomeboy: shaman mana regen is ACTIVE. Meaning we need to constantly hit that canni button to regain our mana, which is kinda hard to do when you are moving through a dungeon and dealing with adds etc. Our job is really not to do damage, but to prevent it. Altough yeah some of ours dots are on par with necro dots, but don't even get me started on necro nukes vs shaman nukes there is no comparison.

[Jebasiz]

It's pretty cool that the shaman community came by and posted. I kinda like what they posted more then the first one...

[Fizzleplink]

We tend to ignore folks like that.

OK, I lied. We generally berate them and laugh them out of existance.

Fizzleplink, a.k.a.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~taleisin/sigs/shansentinel.jpg

[Weyalan]

Originally posted by eqphreak@May 28 2004, 06:14 PM
I know a mob that a NECRO can solo that a SHAMAN cant ..

Remains of Sythrax




I used to play 65 shaman and have teamed up many many times with a necromancer in battle, duoing Howling Stones was an eye opener for me as my buddy didnt have to stop at all to regain mana, but I was constantly asking him to slow down. Here's a clue for gnomeboy: shaman mana regen is ACTIVE. Meaning we need to constantly hit that canni button to regain our mana, which is kinda hard to do when you are moving through a dungeon and dealing with adds etc. Our job is really not to do damage, but to prevent it. Altough yeah some of ours dots are on par with necro dots, but don't even get me started on necro nukes vs shaman nukes there is no comparison.
hmmm

Ahem, you might want to visit this threadShaman killing Remains ofSythax (http://forums.interealms.com/shaman/showthread.php?threadid=21348)...

...Sythax is a mob that is a helluva lot easier for a necro to solo than a shaman to solo, but don't presume that a shaman cannot solo it heh!

Anyway, it is good to see a degree of harmony re-established between the shaman / necro communities

[seever]

Good original post. Very useful. Thx Nox. :)

[Ophidion]

The shaman community doesn't usually look too kindly on shaman that poopoo other classes and claim that we are the supreme mob bosses. We aren't, but thats ok, most of us love to play our class and try our best to get shit done in a timely fashion.
Oh, and 200 DPS is possible from a shaman, but the aggro is so horrid that its not even worth it when you could be healing the MT/:
This is from a fight with Avatar of Dust (pulled from a log).
Unfocused Dots/DD
Bane: 420/tick
BoS: 320/tick
BoN: 214/tick
BoU: 149/tick
PoB: 114/tick
-----------------
1217/tick or 202.83 DPS (mind you this is only while ALL dots are on, so it is hard to sustain this)
In addition to that i was chaining (among the dots)
Tears of Sayarn: 650/tick rain WHEN it hits with a possible (833) crit
So at my max dps I had the possibilty of doing:
1217+650 = 1867/tick
or 311.67 DpS BURST and under PERFECT circumstances.
Needless to say the rain didn't hit every time, and some dots wore off before others. Taking this into consideratoin i would say my average was about 60% of my burst DPS or 187dps sustained. Then i got summoned and died hehe. I CANT FD =(

[Fernwillow]

A few notes to add about bard mana regen.

It was previously stated that bard AOE mana aka Chorus of Marr is capped at 21 mana/tick. That is correct, though once bards can level to 70 those numbers will most likely change.

However, there is the level 32 mana song that bards receive
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=723&source=Live

This song stacks with Bard AoE and all the other mana regen songs.

[Jebasiz]

Ophidion's post is about what I'd expect....the agro from debuffing the mobs, which I assume is the shaman's primary role, is quite significant...after that, the dots/rains come in, and it's always treading the fine line.

I know for a fact if one of our best 3 tanks isn't standing in front of the mob on our raids...if I crit horror and bot in the same or consecutive rounds..I'm FD'ing or dead. I like to think I push about 300 dps from dots on most raid encounters, in Time I know I did...even with refreshing dots on adds...we can still maintain a respectable 250-300 on the boss/god of the momemt, and now we have night fire and nights beckon, which should give us another 30-40dps sustained on any given encounter. Agro management is tough for both shaman and necro...FD is not absolute.

[aeriform]

"(8) Theoretical Maximum

For the sake of curiosity, the following theoretical maximum mana regeneration for a level 65 necromancer sitting (or riding a mount), but excluding one-shot mana regeneration, would be:

4 (innate sitting) + 25 (meditate) + 3 (AA) + 15 (FT) + 5 (PoT gear) + 50 (Lich line) + 2 (Force Shield) + 2 (enchanter buff) + 8 (druid buff) + 9 (beastlord buff) + 21 (bard song)

= 144 mana/tick"

4 (innate at level 65)
25 (meditate) from sitting or mounted
3 (Mental Clarity) 12 AA's Archetype
15 (FT) Various Gear
8 (Maelin's Methodical Mind) Gem-Inlaid Ritual Cloak or Shawl of Eternal Forces
50 (Seduction of Saryrn) Level 64 Necro
2 (Force Shield) Level 63 Necro
2 (Brilliance) Level Enchanter
8 (Protection/Blessing of the Nine) Level 63/65 Druid
9 (Spiritual Dominion) Level 65 Beastlord
23 (Chorus of Marr) Level 65 Bard with full Jamfest AA's
=149 mana/tick

But remember Mind Wrack stacks, very nice with multiple necro's in a group ;)
Mind Wrack Recourse: 75 mana per tick

[Novichok]

Id like to take a Shaman to PoFire and see him clear the entire tables camp faster than I can. It will NEVER happen.

this Shaman lover has my best Lich as 50 mana per tick. Actually, my best Lich gives me 60 MPT.

Neurotoxin is not my best DD spell, Touch of Mujaki is. Look at the cast time and the AA's that modify it and you will change your view.

I never have to worry about healing the damage my lich causes me. My regen is more than I lose from liching.

When in raid, I never use more than 2-3 dots. I usually just use 2 dots and then Mujaki away as it is so damn fast. Mujaki crits like crazy also. Ive had Mujaki heal me for 4300 before while at the same time damaging the mob. Shammy cant do that.

If a Shammy even begins to do the damage I do on a raid (not talking trash mobs either) he will get summoned and dead real fast.

Shaman are a great class. I love them.....but lets face it, they aren't Necromancers and will never compete with a Necro on DPS.

http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=212352

[Jebasiz]

I'm becoming a fan of the big 3 dots, and chaining destroy undead or ToM. Horror, bot and nightfire...then chaining nukes seems to bring down mobs real fast. Although with current raid content having 2-4k ae's my groups like nightstalker a bit.

[eera]

just a little tid bit for the gnome :) ,
we can regen life with out having to cast on a mob can life dot a stalking prob or eye of zoom and at higher levs that will heal most necros full or pritty darn close

[Sboy]

Nice script best one ive seen

[Skarasis]

Ok few things here, that's an excellent guide to mana regenn! Top notch!

Second, on the Shammy Necro thing. I play both Necromancer and Shaman. I have a lvl 70 shaman and just got my necro to 62 :). I play them totaly different, but again as you can play any class anyway you choose and still be effective Im just mentioning the way "I" Play my shammy.

My Shaman in a group is NOT DPS. I am backup healer, buffer, and Debuffer. I Malo, Slow, and heal everyone except the Main Tank (except the obvious of when he needs a quick heal). I Q, root park/VP adds, make sure everythings slowed. Most the time during groups I MIGHT have Bane loaded but thats it. Most all my other slots are full of Debuffs, and heals. I have two slows loaded at all times, both Balance of Nihil and Turgurs. Balance is used for Initial Slow due to its -40 Resist check, then I can Malo/Slow with Turgurs when Time permits if the battle is going to last over a min or so. Gives me breathing room.

I have soloed and I've soloed big mobs with my shaman, but its not as efficient as my Necromancer whom can solo with absolutely no down time, and keep going and going and going. I dont like to solo much and like to group but as sometimes there is no option that's what I've noticed. I have done Fire Tables with my Shaman and while I "CAN" Do it its soo much more efficient with a necro.

Now as for the challenge to list one mob a necro can solo that a Shaman can't or Mobs that Poison and Disease dont work so well on? Vampires, and a lot of undead for that matter. One mob I dont THINK I could solo (Possible but would be an evil long fight) is Valdanov Zevfeer. I know a necro has done it. Those vamps are almost completely immune to Disease and Poison Dots, so only Bane/Athema would work on them and that's too long of a fight to just have those two spells working on him. Necro with 2 stakes, CoS Pet, and some fire dots on him? No issues.

No, I dont care who's thingie is bigger, they are different classes, I enjoy and love them both dearly. Just giving two sides to the coin. Most my time on EQ I've played my shaman but I really enjoy playing my necro, he's a blast to play and Every day I'm getting better at playing him, and learning more and more about the wonderful class that is "Necormancer". I just dinged 62 the other day and can't WAIT for 63 for new snare and Pet!

Game on!

[Azlen]

I regen 90 a tick -with no outside intervention. Additionally my regen rate is 43/46 so I barely lose any Hp doing it

..this helps too

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=7444

[Decrept]

I am using Tribute to increase my FT (Aura of Clarity tier 5) I was wondering, does this stack with Item FT up to the cap?

[GnekroeGnomicon]

I am using Tribute to increase my FT (Aura of Clarity tier 5) I was wondering, does this stack with Item FT up to the cap?
Yes it stacks up to (but not over) your current cap.

So if you have no Expansive mind aa's you can do a mix of FT + Tribute for up to 15 mana regen.

If you have your Expansive mind aa's you can do a mix of FT + Tribute for up to 20 mana regen.

[Lyrath]

Originally posted by Nox@Dec 27 2003, 08:48 AM
Mana Regeneration for the Discerning Necromancer

(1) Innate Mana Regeneration

All casters have an innate 1 mana/tick (tick = 6 seconds) while standing. This amount increases to 2 mana/tick while sitting, or "medding" as is better known. Sitting on a mount counts as sitting for mana regeneration purposes.

For level 65 characters, this innate regeneration increases to 3 mana/tick while standing, 4 mana/tick while sitting (or riding a mount).

A mount is defined as a horse or drogmor.

(2) Meditate Skill

Beginning at level 4, necromancers gain the Meditate ability. While you are sitting (or riding a mount), you receive a mana regeneration bonus equal to 1/10th of your Meditate skill, to a maximum of 25 mana/tick at Meditate 252.

n.b. This skill is level-capped until it reaches 252. At each character level, the maximum rank you can achieve is equal to [(level x 5) + 5]. e.g. At level 12, a character's maximum Meditate rank is [(12 x 5) + 5] = 65.


I just did some testing, and found my mana regen, without any mana buffs or gear, is 2 standing, and 21 sitting.

Level 63 necro, 252 med skill.

If my base mana regen is 2, that means medding is only giving me 19/tick instead of the 25 it should.

With FT 5, and Forceshield (2), i was regaining 9 mana standing, and 28 sitting. Add demi lich (31) and i was up to 59/40. Arch lich was 63/44.

All this shows Med(19) + innate (2) + gear + Lich



I also checked my (iksar) regen rates and rates of loss from lich, and they are slightly different from what i expected.

Magelo reports my regen as 25 sitting 19 standing. I found it to be 25 sitting and 23 standing.

I always though lich damage was 2/3rds what lucy reported. I found it to be 3/4's rounded down.

With my natural regen (25/23) + gear(8) i lost 3hp sitting, 5 standing while running Demi Lich. This equates to 36/tick. Lucy reports 48. 48 * 3/4 = 36

With Arch-lich i lost 6 sitting, 8 standing. this equals 39/tick. Lucy reports 53. 53 * 3/4 = 39.75

This was all tested in PoK this morning. PoK doesn't have different rules does it?

So my conclusions?
They have increased standing regen. This is good. Only 2 points difference in hp loss between sitting and standing.

I always thought the damage of Lich was reduce 2/3rds by PvP dot rules. Maybe my memory has failed me, and it's always been 3/4's. If not however, they changed PvP dot damage up to 3/4's. Good for duellers, bad (marginally) for lich damage.

Meditate + innate at 63 = 21, when it should be 26 or 27. This isn't very good. I'm losing 5 or 6 points of mana regen (depending on whether sittin innate is 1 or 2 at 63)
Maybe meditate is capped below skill/10 before 65?
I will be testing further as i hit 64 and 65.

Anyone else care to confirm my results?

[Maveth]

I have also noticed less than 10% of meditation sill for mana regen at levls less than 70. I think I was regenning 19 with a max med sill around level 52 when I last checked this.

Could be "pro-rated" based on the % less than max you are is the % less total regen you get, did the math and it was pretty close when I noticed it at level 52.

[Drazzminius]

Bump from Spam...

[scrat]

Here is an update for level 85 caps. Well, not much of an update at all in fact.

Innate
Standing mana/tick regen: 3
Sitting mana/tick regen: 30 (+27/tick via meditate)
Sitting mana/tick in Out of Combat 3.33% mana pool/tick


Mental Clarity AA maximum adds 18 maximum/tick innate sitting or standing

Worn Mana Regen
Innate cap of 15/tick without AA investment
Expansive Mind AA increases this a further 20 points, to a 35/tick cap obviously, you must have the +worn mana regen on items for this to work

Heroic Intel adds 1/tick for every 25 points