How I did Katta levels 39-51+ [Archive]

NoKEI

03-01-2005, 04:19 PM

I am not going to sit here and say that our Tap of Time lines aren't pigs.. they are. They are some of the lowest Damage Per Mana spells we ever learn. And, sure, not casting one is a huge jump in mana effeciency. Having an outside healer Heal Over Time you, or an outside person Regen you is a great way to make your mana go longer.

And I would point out that with some very modest assumptions (Affliction Efficiency item, an average of 15 regen a tick during your kites) that an occasional cast of Bond of Death would be a wash mana wise Lich vs. KEI (and do extra damage). Heck, with Specialization you could already be ahead.

But the habit of managing your health is something that should be learned and second nature, the burn only gets bigger. Maybe this is not your first necro.. maybe this is old hat. But if not, until/unless you are blessed with regen to cover, the higher end Liches are a rude awakening.. I can remember watching my health go down 2-3% a tick. In my opinion, it's best to start early and deal with it.

Schaeffer

03-01-2005, 08:30 PM

Doc, I can understand where you're coming from, 6 mana a tick isn't that much of a difference, and if what you do in that particular spot works for you then fine.

I think the point everyone else is trying to make, DO NOT becaome dependant on it. You've seem to have done your reseasrch and know what's going on, otherwise you wouldn't have given us that big explanition above. However, you posted this in here as a guide, and newbies who don't know any better might take what you wrote in there for granted.

Example: I was in a PoI gnome walk yesterday. I got stuck twitchin the Chanter guarding the gnome. I asked another Chanter in my group for some Necro friendly Mind Candy. She then asked me KEI or Enlightnement? I said KEI doesn't stack with Lich. She said ok just checkin, I been asked alot lately by Necros for KEI...

My heart sank. I can't believe this to be the case. That is pure laziness and inexcusable if you ask me. To sacrifice mana regen to not have to worry about HP's due to Liching seems almost incomprehendable. People do quests for FT 1 items and are willing to spend 12 AA's on ManaRegen3 and so to pass up 6 extra mana a tick seems aghast to most, and again this is why people re-acted so strongly to your post inorder to discourage the newbies.

It's also a bad habit to get into. If you become dependant, you're more likely not to want to worry about HP depreciation, so you'll slow yourself down at higher levels when the mobs you'll be kiting have 20k Hp's and you're dots cost 400 plus mana a piece. The point is to learn to deal with Lich now so when you hit the bigtime you won't be out of practice.

Here's what you can do to help out the situation. Instead of KEI get a Git of Brilliance (stacks with Lich), and also if you can get a Pot9. Most casters like it better than the pure HP and AC of cleric buffs because it has both mana and HP regen. You can also get Beasty crack, though it doesn't last as long, it also has HP and Mana regen. This will help you with even more mana regen to cover the mana cost of having to cast BoD and because of the increased HP regen of 9's it'll help counter the bite from Lich so that you won't need to cast BoD as often.

Just trying to help you improve, not knock you're style or intelligence.

Felicite

03-02-2005, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed@Mar 1 2005, 02:32 PM
..not just motherly love about how kei leads to the bad life.
Stop using KEI or the hair will cover the eyes on your palms and you will go blind!

Nice guide.. people sharing their experiences is always helpful.

Hrm. You are thinking about this more than I ever did at 51.. I expect there is little anyone could teach you.

Um.. If you are going to use Splurt, cast it first.

And.. at 51 I was Fear kiting in Dulak cause Mediating will give you 24-27 extra mana a tick.. way more than worn or regen spells at this age. So.. finding a routine you can sit still during will up your efficiency. For example in my 30s I would Fear Kite the Rangers at the Druid Ring and I got to where I could med at the spot they were going to drop.. just get up to loot. That's efficient.

The real measure is the one you already use "can I maintain this pace or not?".. everything else is just situational casting.

I would close with the better Lich spells are a fire hose of mana.. and for a time it seems inexhaustable. But you always want more. I am in the middle of spending 32 AA to get 7 more mana a tick. Thats only 70 a minute.. not even a single cast of anything useful. Nothing would crack you up more than 69 Necro me frenzy pulling in Drunder, burning through my mana dropping 4 spells per Diaku.. 3 Diaku at a time and 56 Necro Warspite twitching me cause with Demi Lich she cannot cast fast enough to burn all her mana. Of course, my sitting mana regen is more per tick than her twitch lands for during these down moments.

**

OK, this chart considers no foci at all. Just published numbers. Well.. I did add the zero tick to the DoTs, but nothing else. Of course this assumes the DoTs finish.. which is why I left off Darkness.

Everytime I look at the Damage Per Mana chart, I am struck by how ineffecient our DDs are. And of course the real numbers have so many more variables: Spec, focus, resists all work up and down. Someday I will do a real model.Damage over Time

Spell name * * *DPM
--------------- ----
Heat Blood * * *2.60
Boil Blood * * *3.52
Ignite Blood * *4.93
Pyrocruor * * * 5.27
FP of Kelador * 5.80
Pyre of Mori * *7.48

Heart Flutter * 1.95
Asystole * * * *3.61
Cessa of Cor * *4.40
Grip of Mori * *6.60

Scourge * * * * 3.35
Plague * * * * *4.24
Dark Plague * * 6.52
Chaos Plague * *7.74

Poison Bolt * * 1.56
Venom ot Snake *3.24
Chilling Embr * 3.20
Evenomed Bolt * 4.04
Blood of Thule *5.36
Chaos Venom * * 5.92

Splurt * * * * *7.59

Dark Soul * * * 2.89
Imprecation * * 3.56
Horror * * * * *5.49
Dark Nightmare *6.06

Leach * * * * 1.11
Vampiric Curse *1.46
Bond of Death * 2.22
Vexing Mordinia 2.46
Saryrn's Kiss * 4.00
Fang of Death * 3.95

Eternities * * *4.50

Direct Damage

Spell name * * *DPM
--------------- ----
Ignite Bones * *2.38
Incinerat Bones 2.38

Insidious Retro 2.69
Chill Bones * * 2.45
Conglag of Bone 2.45

Shock of Poison 1.60
Torbas' A Blast 1.69
Torbas' P Blast 1.74
Torbas' V Blast 1.76
Neurotoxin * * *2.80
Acikin * * * * *3.08

Ward Undead * * 1.37
Expulse Undead *1.57
Dismiss Undead *1.80
Expel Undead * *2.28
Banish Undead * 2.60
Exile Undead * *2.90
Destroy Undead *4.00
Desolate Undead 4.00

chabeksis

03-02-2005, 04:06 AM

I too am grinding in Katta, and have been doing so since 51. The only advice I can give you would be to look into pet toys and keeping your pet hasted. I found that if I had pet toys and a hasted pet I could forego all dots except Ebolt. At 51 I would break the camp in a similar fashoin that you described. However my spell lineup went like this.

1. Insidious Retro
2. Ebolt
3. Level 4 fear
4. Reapply level 4 fear
5. let pet finish off mob

This kept my mana at a very high rate. The buffs I used were BoT9 or Pot9 and manaskin.

So the only real advice I have is look into a hasted pet with pet toys. You might already do this, but I did not notice it in your post. Regardless, good luck, katta is a great place to get quick xp.

Schaeffer

03-02-2005, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Doc Hollidazed)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Maybe you should try thinking outside the lich box, and not the other way around ;)[/b]

I don't have to cause there's no need

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed@
Help me improve by offering up something better and more efficient (what dots/order do you apply and how fast are you levelling), not just motherly love about how kei leads to the bad life.

Re-read the last paragraph in my above post. It tells you what buffs to get instead of KEI / Virtue and counters the lich with HP regen, as well as increases Mana regen above and beyond just the extra 6 mana a tick that lich offers ontop of plain ole KEI.

lich is -32 HP's a tick plus 20 mana

natural regen is 2 standing and 5 sitting at 51 so it makes it 30 hp loss a tick

Protection of the 9 is 8 mana a tick

Gift of Brilliance increase mana pool by 150 and mana regen 2 per tick

Kodiac's Endless Intellect increase mana pool by 250 and mana regen 14

Bond of Death increases HP by 80 a tick for 9 ticks and cost 360 mana

So if you do the math

Virtue & KEI = 250 extra mana and 14 mana losing no HPs

Pot9 & GoB & Lich = 150 extra mana with 30 mana a tick for -30 HP's

So to cast BoD it costs 360 mana but with focii and specialization you guestimated about 290 mana. At your KEI mana regen you said it was 34 a tick sitting. With 9's Brilliance and Lich, it'll be 50 a tick. That means it'll take about 6 ticks to recover that mana.

If you time your BoD casts, you won't waste mana casting it too often. Lich is -30 a tick BoD is +80 a tick for 9 ticks. If you lich and BoD at the same time, you're netting +50 hps. Wait until you lose at least 450 HP's before you cast BoD. This way you can be exactly Full health when BoD fades and not waste any of that 290 mana when you don't need it.

That's 15 ticks of Liching and 9 ticks of BoD so you only have to cast it every 24 ticks, and you make the mana back for it in 6 ticks. That's netting you 900 mana in the 18 other ticks between BoD casts.

Your method of...
<!--QuoteBegin-Doc Hollidazed
Now all you do is Insideous Retrogression (210), Splurt (240), fear (40) (behind bar always, once corner is turned by guard), pet, ebolt (320), med.[/quote]

... costs you 810 mana.

Instead you can then effectively cast splurt (240) Insidious (210) ignite blood(250) and Ebolt (320) for a total of 930 mana, probablly less because of focii and specialization, run ahead of the mob down your hallway and med, hate kiting instead of fear kiting (You're gonna have to ween yourself off the fear kiting crutch real soon anyways). That's all besides the 80 a tick BoD is doing, so with the increased DPS the mobs should drop faster.

If you can't end at above 90% when the mob drops, you can still do it your way just adding the BoD cast, and net 90 mana, per BoD round, possibly enough for a small nuke at the end (Drain Spirit 190 mana lifetap for 230 damage). The mobs should still drop faster as they're still losing an extra 80 hp a tick on top from BoD than your method alone.

If you still want to play your way because you're laggy that's still fine, but don't say it's less efficient because if you do it right, it's not :D That's not "just motherly love" that's advice on improvement.

KB1

03-02-2005, 09:23 AM

NICE!

Vindayen

03-02-2005, 10:29 PM

I would suggest using Dooming, splurt, ebolt, pet in that order, and bond every 3rd mob or so, depending on your regen. I use to agro kite along the wall to the GY, once you cast your dots, run to the very end and sit...or it you time your ticks, sit every 6 secs to get the med bonus and then keep running to the end, mob usually died going 2 paths.

Schaeffer

03-03-2005, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed
As before, I am sorry for the confusion about ebolt, with ebolt calculated in my method is at a 12.5% disadvantage to Lich.

Ok, so that explains why I was staring at the screen thinking, "What is he talking about? There's no way this can be more effective with KEI if this is what he's doing!"

/em wipes his brow

Whew, thought I was losing it!

I'm thinking at 53 there might be a better spot for you. Try Veksar. The first two camps should be relatively easy for you at 53. The only thing I don't like about this camp is that the 49 warrior pet works better here than the 53 monk, this is because in Veksar you can't kite, you have to pet tank, and the warrior has higher HP's and AC. With the exception of the gobbies at zone in, and the golems in the middle (you don't have to worry about those for a while), this zone is 100% undead.

Root a mob
Cast slow
Send Pet
Shadowbond pet
BoD mob

Rinse repeat

Easy as pie, Only thing to worry about is that they summon and that the Crusaders Harmtouch at the start of every fight and "try" to fear you, so have shield up for MR. I've never been to Katta, so I don't know if the XP will be better/worse or faster/slower per kill, but you seem ambitous, so maybe you can give it a shot and compare and contrast?

Please keep us updated, this zone used to be crowded as all hell due to the soloable named and the decent drops there, but it's been empty since Gates and OoW, and the named drops still bazaar for some change, and the weapon drops of trash mobs sell for 5 plat a piece, and you can turn them in for Iksar faction if you're planning on doing the skullcap quest. (clicky lifetap dot, I suggest you look into this one. If you're not a big fan of the mana cost of BoD now, wait till you get to Saryrn's Kiss, lol)

KB1

03-03-2005, 06:43 AM

Wait till you get to Fang of death. Jeebus.

Sikin

03-03-2005, 01:51 PM

I have tested Veksar against katta exp at 56.. and they are about the same. Plus I found that I was lower in mana after a fight then I was in katta.. mostly because I couldnt sit to med right away due to getting summoned. Granted I have not spent the time in there to really find my groove, I just went back to katta for the mindless grinding atm ( I have a 7 week old daughter who objects to being ignored when she wants attention). I do have an idea for a better line up however for you Doc... replace insidious retro with dooming darkness. It will land just as well, has a faster cast time, and is 90 mana less. I find using the 53 pet that I can use dooming, ebolt, pet, invoke fear, BoD (as needed) for 900 mana without spec or foci, and can med during the entire fight once my casting is done. Of course I also use the 11% haste mask for pets, 2 swords of the kedge, and a belt/girdle and use augmentation.

I am going to test the bank area vs the GY area today, but atm I can say that if you pull to the back corner of the steps on the GY side of the courtyard, but not in the GY and fear from there when the guard is almost on you, you never have to worry about adds, and you only have to break up 2 sets of guards (only 1 if your sticking to 5 guard cycles instead of 7). But using this method I can do all 7 guards before repops, never be low on mana, and never have to leave. Of course this will be determined by your mana pool and hps. I loot only the armor peices and let everything else rot. just a thought for you or anyone else. btw I was a little lower on mana using lich then using demi lich but I still got it done non stop (minus the times I was waiting for a moment for repops).

Oh, 1 last thing to this lengthy post... you can aggro kite up and down the GY wall, but its faster to fear kite here. I was doing 5 mobs a cycle, maybe 6 if I was lucky... I went to all 7 when I started to fear kite.

Sikin Inglilcasta
killing Katta Guards for sport since lvl 44

Brahman

04-06-2005, 09:47 PM

So in conclusion, I still say thanks for the input but in this situation (and that's all it is, not a general rule) Lich << KEI for keeping fuller mana pool and full hp

what you and everyone else missed here is that it isn't just about mana efficiencey.

Sitting full mana gets you nothing. If you are full mana you LOOSE efficiency, the goal is to maintain a steady amount of mana at all times. People always miss this. add in the time / plat spent getting those buffs and your total xp earned in your play time goes down.

When you BoD a mob it dies faster, your total mana goes down, but it should be back up to where it was before you cast it again. If it is not then you need to work on that.

The correct math to be doing is your xp per hour with lich vs the amount of xp per hour from having KEI. I think you will find that the efficiency lost because you are getting to full mana is significant. Never done any major calculations here, but I can tell you right now for 3 years I have had other necro's asking me how I managed to lvl / aa so quickly and with no downtime.

Even in PoF at the tables I refuse to have any down time and I continue pulling even when I only have 5% mana. Your mana regen is so great that it eliminates the need to worry about how much mana you have. Period.

Schaeffer

04-06-2005, 11:26 PM

Well I agree with 99% of the above

Originally posted by Brahman
Even in PoF at the tables I refuse to have any down time and I continue pulling even when I only have 5% mana.* Your mana regen is so great that it eliminates the need to worry about how much mana you have.* Period.

I'd like to have a little more mana than that if I'm solo. I can finish a kite with more mana than I started, but 5% though possible would be a stretch for me. I think I'd wait the 6 seconds for another tic or two and atleast get to 10%

EDIT: fixed the double quote

Brahman

04-06-2005, 11:37 PM

that other tic happens while you are running to the mob :D

Schaeffer

04-06-2005, 11:40 PM

touche

Brahman

04-07-2005, 05:28 AM

It is VERY worth mentioning if i didn't have clickie snare I wouldn't dare pull under 10 - 15% mana though hehe

Brahman

04-07-2005, 04:07 PM

I spend less than a few minutes acquiring virtue in PoK and being in a guild means no plat spent. Often times, if you just ask, people won't expect a donation anyway. This easy buff is not a time/pp sink and does not have a large negative impact on my efficiency. Five minutes of time at the most, no plat.

5 min is 2 lost kills. 3 or 4 if you are a crazy/uber necro.

Envenomed bolt does more damage than Bond of Death, is cheaper in mana, does not eat HP.

yes but ebolt and ebolt don't stack. Funny thing that combo :(

You do not loose efficiency by having full mana. Full mana IS a steady amount of mana.

Yes you do. Your total mana regen goes down, because you are going tics without gaining any mana. That means you have less mana to spend, which means you are doing less damage, which means that you are killing less mobs. you are not spending all of your mana when you have kei... Kei is less mana than lich... which means you are loosing potential damage from being full mana, AND you are spending not just 4/tic less but MORE THAN 4/tic less. You can NOT have the same / better kill rate with (guestimating here) 10 - 15 less mana per tic overall.

To "prove" you loose efficiency when you are full mana.

you have 30 mana / tic. I have 25. over one min I get all 10 of my tics = 250 mana, over one min you are FM for 2 of your tics = 240 mana. lets just say we both have a mana efficiency of 4 dmg / mana. I do 1k dmg, you do 960. I have 4% more damage potential than you do, even though you have 20% more mana regen than I do.

over an hour that's 400 dmg...

I was trying to offer a better way to do things and have proven to myself enough to justify my methods.

No, because your "proof" banks on the fact that you have more mana than I do, and I just proved FM = lost mana = your calculations are wrong.

EDIT::: and I have done testing... I have done the extream testing of 70 levels, and 350 AAs. In every case any necro that used KEI fell behind me, or sucked so bad in the end game they couldn't get into a guild and quit the class/game. (the ones that sucked were the keibaby necro's not ones that used it for 4 lvls mind you)

Brahman

04-07-2005, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Atvar
Kei 14 mana * 240 ticks = 3360 mana
Lich 20 mana * 240 ticks = 4800 mana
Extra from lich = 1440 mana

Lich 30 hp lost (32 minus 2 roughly from regen) * 240 ticks = 7200 hp lost
(BTW is lich still effected by pvp hp reduction? I haven't played in a while and you really quit caring by the time you hit 60+)

Lets say all spells will cost 80% of stated cost due to specialization/focus/tribute. I think savings would actually be a bit better but whatever.

10 BoD * 300 mana = 3000 mana needed.
10 * 720 hp = 7200 hp gained.

Hitpoints Cancel out: 7200 - 7200 = 0
Extra mana used for BoD: = 3000 - 1440 = 1560 mana

You've also done 7200 dmg while healing with BoD. Now for the sake of argument I'm going to use venom of the snake to make up that extra damage done because they are roughly the same duration and its one of the most practical for soloing (better DPM dots won't run full duration thus lowering their actual DPM, etc.).

16 VoS * 453 dmg = 7248 dmg
10 * 130 mana = 2080 mana
Difference: 48 dmg for (2080 - 1560 = 520) mana

So in order to get an extra 48 dmg you need to use 520 extra mana. Liching is more efficient.

Chilling embrace: 12 * 600 dmg = 7200 dmg
12 * 160 mana = 1920 mana
Asystole: 10 * 690 dmg = 6900 dmg
10 * 168 mana = 1680 mana
Ebolt: 6 * 1132 dmg = 6792 dmg
6 * 256 mana = 1536 mana

So even when you get ebolt at 51 you'd just be hitting about even. With the availibility of affliction efficiency items and tribute nowadays it should even be more pronounced savings. Regen will also be a lot higher if you're an iksar and/or sitting.

KEI is ok if you feel like being completely lazy and just want to play dumb for a while, but it is never more efficient than lich. And unless you want extra int or something for tradeskills, you should never go out looking for KEI.

just dumping this here so its in the proper place for quick refference :)

Atvar

04-07-2005, 08:09 PM

Sikin hit the nail on the head. Use dooming darkness over insidious retrogression and BoD as needed. If you do the numbers(don't forget natural regen, etc.) lich will come out ahead. You're also making the assumption that you're medding 100% of the time. Less actual medding means bigger difference in mana regen and will benefit liching.

Nekys

04-08-2005, 01:52 AM

Doc - you keep saying look outside the lich box while refusing to look into it yourself. Your KEI/lich analysis, no matter what you may think, has been done before. Many times.

Many, many times.

By folks like you who refuse to accept the counter-argument.

The one point I haven't seen pointed out to you is gear. What kind of gear do you focus on? What is your int level ... sta level ... hitpoint level with your gear. As a KEI addict I have my theories about your focus, but am curious nonetheless.

Regardless, as a necro, here are 2 major clues to keep in mind regarding gear as you level:

1. HITPOINTS > ALL

2. ALL < HITPOINTS

As for buffs, it has been pointed out as clear as it can: Nine/Oaken over Virtue/Conv, lich over KEI.

That you fail to understand why at this point in your career is moot. There is no new wheel. This one has been invented and works. On the otherhand, good luck and enjoy doing it your way. It is afterall a game.

Gondarionas

04-08-2005, 07:41 PM

all i know is that i'm using sos and i would go crazy now if i tried to use kei.. cause lets see 50 for lich.. i'm wearing ft6... then 4 innate regen... and if i'm sitting down which most of the time while i'm kiting in big enough area i am so sitting down that adds what 25 regen for meditate .. so that's like what 85 mana a tick.. now being an iksar my regen is like 29 standing plus the 4 or 5 worn ... and one quick blast with ID4 and a life tap means easy 1k heal for almost nothing cause boom 1k heal run off sit down and in about 15 sec i get back the cost of the mana it took to cast a heal it all really depends on the way you play i coudln't see my self even using kei at an early age you'll see as you go further it's just a waste of time kinda like getting conv when you ahve shield yeah it's nice to have the extra hp but hell if you know what your doing you shouldn't even get touched most of the time

Duke Roger

04-08-2005, 08:07 PM

This is a rather interesting thread, for purely academic reasons at least, though I do have a problem with it: this insistence on viewing the game as a complex mathematical formula that needs to be "solved". You appear to be arguing over a few percentage points of efficiency when any method given nets similar results. I personally don't look forward to needing a calculator and slide rule to play a game...

Having said that, can't the detractions of using Bond of Death be mostly offset since you don't need to use it on every mob and can substitute more efficient DoTs instead?

Atvar

04-08-2005, 10:01 PM

OK, I went from spending 30 min crunching some numbers and posting my first post to thinking about it some more and being like wtf KEI is much better than lich, then remembering about PvP dmg reductions on lich, and eventually taking the time to make an excel spreadsheet to crunch numbers. Yeah, I did it for shits n giggles for the most part. If anyone knows somewhere I could upload it to I'd love feedback to see if I really messed anything up.

Some of the things it shows:

*First off: any Iksar necro should use lich because the extra hp regen will easily make it more efficient than KEI.
*Yes casting BoD every mob is horribly inefficient and would make KEI better. But when you cast BoD as needed it brings the difference between methods to mere seconds.
*Shows effects of hp or mana regen from items and focus effects.
*Mana preservation and Affliction efficiency items greatly favor liching. It shouldn't be hard to get them, and they help a lot.
*Set up to calculate how much dps a pet/clickies must do to negate the added dmg from BoD. (I did this since it would be hellish to try and counter it with other dots when using KEI. BTW: what is the avg. dps for the 49 and 53 pet? It's kinda essential for me to know in order to interpret results, but I don't have an account to test it)
*Needing more mana per mob favors liching. Katta guards seems to be the bare minimum mana usage per mob and would favor KEI the most.

The biggest problem with this is finding a spell setup that would maximize your efficiency since you don't BoD every mob.

If you want to be more efficient by using KEI, you'd have to perfectly balance your fighting at katta guards and constantly pull with no focus effects or added regen to *maybe* be more efficient than lich. I don't know the spawn rate of anything here but if it slows you down at all you probably can't beat lich. Is that worth going out of your way to find KEI? Hell no if you want kill more efficiently.

PS. with no focus using KEI your pet(clickies) would need to do roughly 25ish dps to equal lich at katta. With focus dps would go into the 30's and 40's. What are good numbers to expect from your pet?

Nekys

04-10-2005, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed@Apr 8 2005, 01:19 PM
It is my opinion ....
Doc - that sums it up.

Your opinion on the subject. Just as my opinion was expressed. For someone "not trying" to argue you are sure wasting tons of time arguing. I didn't use KEI, or clarity or clarity 2 or even breeze at the available levels and back in the day a level one could get KEI. Why? Because I didn't want to play another caster who had to depend on outside buffs to level. I have done a wizard to 65, and enchanter to 65 and a mage to 60+ ... hell, if I wanted, my chanter would be my KEI Biatch.

Here is what you are missing ... I made the decision to play my necro my way. I don't care how you play yours. Now, when any twit comes dancing in (after many other twits before him) and starts singing the KEI>>>LICH song ... well, Sport, I have to comment. Reality is, I don't care how you leveled up. I enjoy how I play my character. Some things I have done right, some wrong. In the balance I think I have many more right than wrong ... but it took some learning. KEI over lich is your thing. More power to you.

As for this inflated sense of superiority you have ... Sport, crunch all the numbers you want, but in the long run, I would eat you for lunch against any mob, any camp, any contest you can imagine using lich over KEI. And that is where the real argument lies.

Point of fact is still a basic premise: ARE YOU HAVING FUN PLAYING THE GAME?

Brahman

04-10-2005, 04:30 PM

It is my opinion that the Lich line is only better than KEI once the spell Demi Lich is available at 56.

You will excuse me if I don't hold the opinion, of someone that doesn't realize being FM reduces efficiency, too highly.

I have to say I find it's funny you 100% ignored my examples of how being FM reduces efficiency ENOURMOUSLY, yet you make an entire post assualting someone who is saying he could care less how you play.

You want to keep some amount of credibility to your possition you can not just ignore facts that would swing things that hugely.

Again.

If you are using KEI you are staying near full mana, and getting to FM frequently, when you are FM you loose potential mana which means you are doing far less dmg. Which means that your kill rate, CAN NOT be as good with KEI. This is just from the examples you gave us. I suggest you switch to AA xp, and time how long it takes to get 2 complete AAs (acurately) and then get 2 with Lich. I think you will be shocked at the difference.

Brahman

04-10-2005, 04:37 PM

No, the kill rate is slowed down. If a mob dies slower it repops slower.

being 50m is WAY different than being FM. At FM you get NO MORE MANA, at 50% you get every last mana you should. If you are full mana you are better off casting a nuke with a 1 dmg/mana ratio than staying FM.

lesk

04-10-2005, 04:50 PM

I also did katta in my lower-mid 50's. Just out of curiosity, Doc, how many do you keep down with kei? I think you said you are 55? At the bank?

I did the same spot at that level.

lesk

04-10-2005, 05:05 PM

Yeah, I did 7 with lich and usually had half a minute for the repop. 2 at the bar, 2 at the stairs, 2 at the bank, and one on top of stairs. I didn't stay at full mana, but I was always close and back to full before the pop.

I was just curious. That isn't meant to validate either side of the debate.... I think atvar already has. Go ding 56 and come back to praise Demi-Lich so everyone else will be happy :lol:

Brahman

04-10-2005, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed@Apr 10 2005, 12:39 PM
Looking back, I did reply to your post about full mana and did address it when I said FM is a steady rate of mana.
That does not address the efficiency of things 1 tiny bit though. So how many tics per how many would you say you are FM?

Atvar

04-10-2005, 05:23 PM

From what my numbers are telling me, in order to make or beat the efficiency from KEI, you just need to sit(higher hp and mana regen) more than you would while KEI ing.

I asked Doc to doublecheck some of the formulas I used. When I'm happy they're close, I'll put up my spreadsheet so people can try things with their own numbers.

Brahman

04-10-2005, 06:06 PM

This is not accurate. The regen rate remains constant, regardless of full mana. You are gaining mana at the exact same rate whether full or not.

no. If you gain 10 mana per tic for 500 tics you have gained an avg of 10 mana per tic. if you are FM for 25% of those your avg mana regen is only. 7.5 per tic. You have LOST mana.

You do not have less mana to spend, you are at or near full mana, and on the contrary, have MORE mana to spend than if you are at say 50% mana.

you are going on the assumption that I am talking about at any given time. When in fact i'm talking about total mana spent / available over an entire grind session.

The benefit of being closer to full mana is that you DO have greater damage potential than being at say 50% mana, since mana available directly translates into damage available

again you are talking about RIGHT NOW IF I SPENT ALL MY MANA. And I am talking about the FAR more important, how much damage I can do over 10 hours.

I have lich with 20 mana per tic, over 2 hours I am NEVER FM. so I gain... 24,000 mana.

You have KEI with 14 mana per tic, you are FM 15% of the time. so you gain 14,280 mana. (2520 less than just KEI if you were never FM) That alone is then mana for 32 BoD's with about 20% mana savings from specialization checks, and MP. Thats casting BoD every 3.75 min...

But you sir are correct, being FM does nothing to efficiency. <-- sarcasm

EDIT::: seriously when will people learn mana pool means exactly NOTHING while XPing?

EDIT X 2::: I know I shouldn't need to point this out, but really here I go anyway. Under the above situation, YOU WOULD USE THE EXACT SAME SPELLS other than casting BoD as needed. This means that your total DMG would go up, which means that the mobs die faster, which means they pop a bit faster, which means you can kill it a bit sooner... aka xp / hour goes up.

EDIT X 3::: and ebolt and ebolt don't stack, while DoB does, so you cann't use that arguement again. yet anouther thing you are ignoring in your calculations, and have not responded to from my posts.

Veratu

04-10-2005, 07:51 PM

*Laughs*

This argument again?

Listen, this is not a difficult issue for players to experiment with, and decide which spell line better suits their play style or particular situation.

Veratu

Brahman

04-10-2005, 08:05 PM

Whatever needs to be casted to MAKE UP LOST DAMAGE from using BoD instead of Ebolt.

*cough*useboth*cough*

The point of stacking ebolt with ebolt is that you assume you should use one OR the other. When you should be using both.

Casting BoD 32 times, every 3.75 minutes wastes alot of damage over Ebolt, because Ebolt can be cast 64 times in the same period, since 3.75 mins is about 38 ticks and the fight is lasting about 18 ticks.

ONCE AGAIN, you have MORE MANA THAN WITH KEI, you use THE EXTRA MANA to cast BoD. NOT instead of Ebolt but WITH ebolt.

This is wrong. BoD in place of Ebolt, not in addition to. WHY O WHY would you replace instead of add? you shouldn't replace it with BoD because once again ebolt and ebolt do not stack while BoD and ebolt will stack. The entire purpose of my arguement here is that with the EXTRA mana you ADD BoD to your lineup, you don't replace Ebolt with BoD. This would be your fatal flaw.

KEI/EBolt
-----------
Insideous
Splurt
Ebolt
Fear+Pet

thats 4 spells you have to keep memed for that line up... (5 cause u left out snare..)

Lich/BoD
----------
Insideous
Splurt
Bond of Death
Fear+Pet
Whatever needs to be casted to MAKE UP LOST DAMAGE from using BoD instead of Ebolt.

thats only 5 spells with ebolt added in. still well with in the 8 spell gems you have. (6 cause u left out snare)

Are you under the impression that BoD eats more than the mana I listed? Because, if you JUST use BoD with the EXTRA mana from lich then there is nothing stoping you from casting ebolt right alot with it.

*sigh*

once again being FM reduces efficency, and you are wasting a butt load of mana from the sounds of things.

EDIT::: let me put it into a more obvious analogy. If you have a credit card with a 3500 limit that a lotto winning will pay off every month, and you are only putting 500 on it a month. Are you loosing money? YES. 3000 a month, or 36,000 a year to be exact.