Rules for pet weapon equiping?

[Ghastinus]

ok, so I found A Weighted Axe (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=11543) last night in the bazaar for 20pp, and was really excited to see how it worked with my little Leering Corpse. I also picked up a Muzzle and Belt for 5pp each. I operned a trade window and placed the Muzzle, Belt, and Axe in the window. I hit "give" and poof! The axe is gone. Needless to say I was pretty disappointed.

Any ideas as to why this happened, and is there a ruleset for weapon use I haven't found yet?

Thanks in advance!

Ghastinus

[Nirruden]

Not pet usable. Flagged so specially, because pets ignore delay. Go pick up a set of Fists of Ixiblat instead. (Pet must be > 10th level to proc the effect!)

[Ghastinus]

Thanks, I suspected as much. Is there a list somewhere with items that they've flagged unusable by pets? I'd hate to havve to do this by trial and error.

The summoned weapons are a good choice too, but I recently found that you can get a Fist of Bone (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=26841) from one of the Shadeweavers merchants (the one on the left as you enter the building) for 2sp each. I bought 6 to bank, and I think there may be an unlimited supply. It doesn't have the proc but does the same damage.

[Nirruden]

Thanks, I suspected as much. Is there a list somewhere with items that they've flagged unusable by pets? I'd hate to havve to do this by trial and error.

I know of none... but I have a friendly mage who is always willing to provide me gear... even if it means I have to kick her out of the chair to get to her keyboard to get it.

...fists of bone...

After your pet puts a few levels under his belt, the proc and stats are the only reason to get weapons - he'll stop using the damage number of the weapon you gave him, unless they're pretty nasty.

While you're picking up the fists from your local mage (donate!) you should ask for a belt, muzzle, and a suit of plate armor. With all of those things given to your pet, he will be MUCH happier, and tank like a pro. Before pet gets dual wield, ask for an Elemental Defender - the AC helps and as a shield, it is used for bashing.

...don't forget to donate if you're pestering people you don't know. Asking a mage to blow mana for you and not kicking something back to them is bad form.

[Dhau]

best pet weapons are Tantor's tusk (50dmg) if you can afford it or weighty polearm (29dmg, like 100pp in baz)

pets always do exactly 2xbase dmg of weapon, so with tantor's tusk your pet will be hitting for 100...its how i powerlevel'd solo =)

[richardrahll]

If I remember correctly, the flag to make some weapons not pet-equippable was added in the December 11 update.

It was a tactic used by some mages to equip their pet with a shaman-only weapon that procs a slow. This made it easier of course for them to use their pet as a tank and (GASP!) solo. Sony saw it unbalancing for pets to have weapons of this power and be able to be suspended and saved across multiple sessions of EQ. So sony nerfed it by adding this flag to all weapons, and initially only setting it on this one specific weapon. Time has passed of course and more wpns have since been added.

I know of no one that has compiled a list of weapons that pets can't equip. Not many are going to buy expensive weapons to give their pets anymore just to see the wpn poof. I can think of much better ways of spending my plat, like buying my lvl 66 spell runes!

[Rikam]

Yea I believe the items say next to no drop and no rent should say no pet.

[CigamHelspawn]

No Pet .... I love it!

As for equipping pet with armor, if you have any of the pet augs like summoners boon off DPoC and such doesnt the pet come into being wearing such armor?

Just curious if they changed that too...

Cig

[Nirruden]

As for equipping pet with armor, if you have any of the pet augs like summoners boon off DPoC and such doesnt the pet come into being wearing such armor?

I know this is true for mages.. I believe it is also true for necromancers, but have not the patience or time to prove it. However, if he is expected to tank, I also give my pet:

A full set of 66 mage jewelry. (Each piece adds HP, bracers may not equip)
Weapons/Mask/Belt (all 66+, adds hp, haste, procs, stats)
An elemental defender (goes in back slot, adds AC)
Virtue/Viction
Focus Buff (If possible)

But that's only for tanking situations - which are few and far between. (Though he tanked a bit in the PoJ trials last night...)

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Nirruden@Jun 27 2005, 03:00 PM
As for equipping pet with armor, if you have any of the pet augs like summoners boon off DPoC and such doesnt the pet come into being wearing such armor?

I know this is true for mages.. I believe it is also true for necromancers, but have not the patience or time to prove it. However, if he is expected to tank, I also give my pet:

A full set of 66 mage jewelry. (Each piece adds HP, bracers may not equip)
Weapons/Mask/Belt (all 66+, adds hp, haste, procs, stats)
An elemental defender (goes in back slot, adds AC)
Virtue/Viction
Focus Buff (If possible)

But that's only for tanking situations - which are few and far between. (Though he tanked a bit in the PoJ trials last night...)

I am similar, tho never thought to do the mage jewelry...

If I can my pet usually gets 66+ weapons and belt, the muzzle cuz there isntr a 66+ version 8-( ), conviction if I can get it (virtue if cant)... dont bother with chanter haste since rune of death (the 62 pet augment if Im remembering name wrong) overwrites and chanter haste seems to overwrite it) and the elemental shild... gotta remember to give shield AFTER the two weaps or it will steal the secondary slot.

mages pets can benefit from both the mage augment spell and chanter haste but not other brands of pets unfortunately.

Gonna have to try the mage jewelry.

If you try with armor and without let us know if there is a diff... I havent noticed a diff with summoners boon summoned pet ading armor but that dont mean there aint one. I may try the two ways too.

Cig

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by Sissl
Essentially when you summon a pet, the game will scan to see what is the highest level focus you own, then it will summon a completely different pet based on that focus. Pet foci aren't generating a "your pet gets +2 to damage, and 23 more regen a tick, and 500 more ac", but in actuality are summoning a completely different base pet depending on the focus.
This is straight from Sissl's Summit Summery (http://www.necrotalk.com/index.php?showtopic=4122). The pet's aren't summoned already wearing 'armor', it's merely a new pet that was summoned based on the highest focus you were wearing at the time.

[Nirruden]

The pet's aren't summoned already wearing 'armor', it's merely a new pet that was summoned based on the highest focus you were wearing at the time.

Interesting. This implies that a suit of mage summoned armor (and jewelry, weapons, etc...) would all further increase the tanking ability of necromancer pets, over and above the initial boost from the focus.

500 AC pretty much dwarfs the ~100 AC one can get from armor+jewelry+shield, but as the warriors tell us, up to the cap, every bit helps. Pets are usually nowhere near any softcap (as far as I know) and thus should benefit to some (possibly small) degree from this additional equipment.

[Sikin]

The pet's aren't summoned already wearing 'armor', it's merely a new pet that was summoned based on the highest focus you were wearing at the time.


How do you come to this conclusion? They never said the new base model does not have full plate equipt already, and the patch message straight out said that focused 61+ pets have full plate equipt from the start. As a mage though, there are more advantages to giving your pets the jewelry, such as ID for your pet's lifetap, or in the case of the mage, for your fire pet's casting of ice comet.

[KB1]

The patch message said "mage" pets, it never mentioned Necro pets, it was part of the refining of pet focus, and that was one of the perks mage's got along with pet summoned with weapons already.

[KB1]

http://eqlive.station.sony.com/updates/rec...es.jsp?id=61541 (http://eqlive.station.sony.com/updates/recent_updates.jsp?id=61541)



They aren't going to have bst/nec pets be summoned with Mage summoned gear already, for the simple reason as it would be seen as a slight to the Mage class, the Mage pets got the gear, not Necs/Bsts.

[Schaeffer]

KB, I love you man!

Can I have your Bud Light?

[KB1]

How about my Red Stripe, and where you been? Just hanging around here now or what?

[Sikin]

oh yea... Been playing a mage so long I forgot it was just our pets. Thanks for the correction.

[Schaeffer]

Been a busy summer, I'll get back over there to help abuse T-bag soon enough ;)

[KB1]

Think T-bag is gone for good, don't know for sure. One of the ugly gnomes can answer that better.

[Schaeffer]

Well hell, who are we going to pick on now?

[Birdienumnum]

I have been away from EQ for a few months. When I saw the recent changes, I made a froglok necro, and had a ball with the new tutorial.
Equipping the pet with weapons has been puzzling.
What class is the bony chap? The beastlord pet is a warrior class, and mage pets have classes after 50, i think.
I did notice "bones" did not use any NO DROP from Gloomingdeep. I could give him a staff, but not a rusty anything, nor a scimitar. He did take a tarnished shantok in FOB.
I do think that at level 10, "bones" does not do any more damage equipped.

Any suggestions for a young teen, on a new server, with scant loot pickings would be appreciated.

[Sathras]

Originally posted by "Birdienumnum"
What class is the bony chap?/em points to the sticky thread titled "Pet Statistics".

Class is listed there too. To spoil it a bit - pets are generally warriors. You need to level quite a bit until you get a monk or rogue pet.

[Nirruden]

I did notice "bones" did not use any NO DROP from Gloomingdeep.

This is true for all NODROP items, as I recall.

I could give him a staff, but not a rusty anything, nor a scimitar. He did take a tarnished shantok in FOB.

Assuming the weapons you tried to give him were not nodrop, then the problem may have been that he already had a weapon. Pets cannot dual wield until ~24 or ~29 (I've forgotten which) and will only use the first weapon they are given. I don't recall seeing rusty weapon drops in Gloomingdeep, so I'll assume you dragged your pet along for the ride when you left the tutorial.

I do think that at level 10, "bones" does not do any more damage equipped.

Max hit, or twice the listed weapon damage, whichever is higher. I believe the first three pet levels (Old levels 1, 4, 8) could still benefit from large-damage two handers (ex: Rusty Halberd is ~10 damage, pet hits for ~20 with one IIRC).

Above that, they tend to hit harder than most weapons will allow, so your main focus for pet equipment shifts to the mage summoned items to benefit from tehir proc effects. A summoned belt will add notable hp to your pet, and a summoned muzzle will make him swing faster. (The rules for dual wielding still apply, so only buy one weapon, though you can also buy mage summoned shields.

Any suggestions for a young teen, on a new server, with scant loot pickings would be appreciated.

Certainly!

1. Leave town.
2. Find a creature you can beat in combat.
3. Kill it.
4. Stip the corpse of anything not stapled down.
5. Repeat until nearly/totally encumbered.
6. Sell all loot at a friendly merchant, taking care to turn items into people who need them for quests.
7. Repeat whole process, using progressively more powerful foes for advancement and challenge purposes.

(This is also known as the "Kill skuls" method of character advancement.) This method of monetary acquisition is the primary means of advancement in the world of Everquest. Truthfully, it never ends. You will also find that association with competent players will make the harvesting process smoother and allow you to defeat more challenging foes.

As far as skill fundamentals, I'd pay attention to learning to handle multiple mobs at once (cf: Adds, crowd control, offtanking, root, kiting) and to understanding the fundamentals of agro, particularly how position relates to agro, the pet-player agro relationship, and foe hate list mechanics in general. Learning how to manipulate the actions and reactions of a relatively unsubtle foe is key to becoming a necromancer, and it is a deep and subtle subject, as much an art as a science.

(If you have more specific questions...)

[Jebasiz]

I used to give my pets a wave crasher and that weapon off vaniki to proc slow and a tash orb/stick..to proc tash, and then solo gorenaire, talendor and severilous(dispelling him helps alot).

Now I just go upto said dragon and hit him over the head myself.

[KB1]

Sev displeed is a wimp, dont dispell and he is a mean mfer. Thats true of any shaman though.

[Sinderella]

Nirruden,

Rusty daggers can be fished in Gloomingdeep.
Rusty warhammers are dropped by Kobolds.

He would take either or a staff, splintering kobold shield or goblins pick, but wouldn't take Kobbold sword. This would only fit in a large container, so maybe it was too big?

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Sinderella@Nov 18 2005, 01:10 PM
Nirruden,

Rusty daggers can be fished in Gloomingdeep.
Rusty warhammers are dropped by Kobolds.

He would take either or a staff, splintering kobold shield or goblins pick, but wouldn't take Kobbold sword. This would only fit in a large container, so maybe it was too big?
Nope - I think that they're NODROP on most servers, and I think that's what's doing it. You used to be able to give a pet NODROP items (I believe), and for certain this is no longer true, if it ever was. If they're not, then I wonder if they've gotten a "nopet" flag set on them somehow...

Gehlen and I tested this with her epic pet. Summon orb, click orb to get epic pet, summon orb, give to pet, orb goes "poof". Pity too, because the epic weapon had some nice stats for pets (back before proccing mage weapons existed...).

[Sinderella]

Gotcha. Can't remember if they were NODROP. Probably.

Makes it all a little hit and miss when giving weapons to your pet, no?

Also, I read (on here?) somewhere about your pet being able to wear anything YOU can wear, but I gave him some cloth armour which disappeared. Can they wear armour?

[Duke Roger]

Pets will wear any kind of no-drop armor, but it will not appear on the model. Pets have exactly the same equipment slots as a PC, as far as I recall.

[Sinderella]

How can you tell what they're wearing? I've tried to inspect him but it doesn't seem to work.

[Dranul]

Originally posted by Sinderella@Nov 22 2005, 10:45 AM
How can you tell what they're wearing? I've tried to inspect him but it doesn't seem to work.
Honestly, I think the only way is to just remember what you gave them.

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Sinderella@Nov 22 2005, 10:45 AM
How can you tell what they're wearing? I've tried to inspect him but it doesn't seem to work.
You will see weapons/shields a pet is wielding for skeleton pets. Armor/focus items/other stuff is all not displayed on the pet model. Nothing shows up on spectre model pets.

If you want to fully gear up your pet, you will need to give him, in order:
2 proccing mage weapons (pets under 60(?) get fists, they can't proc the others)
1 mage belt (Crystal is best)
1 muzzle (haste)
1 bag of summoned jewelry (not the whole bag, one at a time!)
1 bag of summoned armor (Not the whole bag, one at a time!)
1 elemental defender (Always AFTER weapons past level 24!)

Fully equipped, a pet will have:
Pet Toys - - - -
Weapons: +150hp, chances to proc (Cold/magic/fire). (+100hp for fists)
Crystal Belt: Str: +20 Dex: +20 Sta: +20 Agi: +20 HP: +650
Muzzle of Mardu: 11% haste

Calliav's Jewelry - - - -
Mantle: AC: +10 Sta: +10 HP: +45 Mana: +45
Jeweled Bracelet: AC: +9 Cha: +10 HP: +45 Mana: +45
Spiked Ring: AC: +7 Str: +10 HP: +45 Mana: +45
Glowing Bauble: AC: +7 Wis: +10 HP: +45 Mana: +45
Steel Bracelet: AC: +9 Cha: +10 HP: +45 Mana: +45
Platinum Choker: AC: +9 Int: +10 HP: +45 Mana: +45

Summoned Plate - - - -
76(?)AC for the whole set,.
Subtract 8(?)AC for each bracer = 60AC.
Elemental Defender: AC: +10 Fire Resist: +5 Cold Resist: +5 Magic Resist: +5

For a total of:
1070 hp, 127AC
30STR, 30STA, 20DEX, 20AGI (+INT/WIS/CHA worthless to necro pets)
5FR, 5CR, 5MR

Assuming the pet actually has two ear/finger slots (debated) or a range slot(also debated), you could add another lower-level ring and earring for another 12AC and 40hp total, and a shard of the core in range slot for 15PR/CR.

Slap on a Viction/Virtue buff and shammy buffs, and a pet makes a pretty solid tank for fighting low-mid range content, though not as good as a well-geared, well-played melee toon.

Below 50, a full set of mage gear makes a pet into a mob blender. Above 65, this additional gear is an extra second (at most two) to get the pet feigned. Most necros will not bother with more than the "pet toys" set at the top, because it's rare to be pet-tanking. ~1000hp/~130AC/~10resists is next to nothing in modern content. Mobs that are fought at the high end will simply obliterate a pet in an eyeblink. (Necromancers don't tank in Vxed...)

-whew-

I hope that answers all your questions.

[Duke Roger]

Why do you have to give them gear one piece at a time? You can't put four pieces of armor in?

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Duke Roger@Nov 22 2005, 05:30 PM
Why do you have to give them gear one piece at a time? You can't put four pieces of armor in?
You can... Just don't hand them the BAG.
ie:
Helmet, breastplate, legs, arms (give) gloves, writsts x2 boots (give)
NOT
Bag (with items inside) (give)

[Mystiqat]

I never even bother with the mask any more. Wasn't it determined that our pet haste spell maxes the pet's haste anyway?

[Sinderella]

Sorry, you lost me at:

2 proccing mage weapons... :lol:

The summoned armour has to come from a Mage, right? Necros can't summon stuff, can they.

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Sinderella@Nov 23 2005, 10:19 AM
Sorry, you lost me at:

2 proccing mage weapons... :lol:

The summoned armour has to come from a Mage, right? Necros can't summon stuff, can they.
All of the summoned items I listed are mage-summoned. Mages are conjuration heavy characters with pets that dwarf ours, a narrowly focused set of direct damage spells, and no real "crowd control" type abilities to speak of. You'll typically see them running around with an elemental in tow, though air elementals can be invisible. Mages make good additions to any group with pets or that needs additional solid DPS, and their chain-stunning air pets can reliably tank things that would leave Jaboner crushed into a delicately flavored pate.

Mages can summon a variety of items at various levels, like armor, weapons, and special effect items (UV necklaces, EB waterstones, Levitation ring clickies, mod rods). Their caster focus jewelry can be used by pets as well, and adds hitpoints and various stats. Higher-end armor and jewelry is better, but requires a higher-end mage to summon it. Their old-world weapons are usable by players, but don't have stats worthy of bazaar gear these days, and were originally designed to allow corpse runs for raids that wiped before graveyards existed. Their newer weapons are pet-only, and have a variety of proc (DD attack) effects that occur more or less randomly when the pet is swinging them.

A "proc" is short for "process" and refers to the "combat effects" you will see on various weapons. Pet weapons have procs in three flavors: cold, fire, magic. A necromancer proc that you can toy with for yourself is the low-level "Vampiric Embrace" buff, that gives you a chance to steal life from your targets when in melee via a lifetap proc. Your self-buff adds a proc that allows you to occasionally proc a magic-based lifetap when you fight in melee. It's not to be relied upon, but it can be fun to use at low levels. Procs are often level based, and low level pets cannot process (proc) effects from some of the higher-end mage weapons. For low level pets, you want a "Fist of Ixiblat" (commonly called a fist).

It is good form to donate to a mage, if you are asking them to expend significant effort in summoning gear for your pets.

I never even bother with the mask any more. Wasn't it determined that our pet haste spell maxes the pet's haste anyway?

It might be argued that 11% haste is meaningless, but I'm not aware of anyplace it's ever been said that our haste spell maxes out a pet. Worn haste stacks with spell haste for players, doesn't it? Why would pets be different?

[Duke Roger]

Originally posted by Nirruden+Nov 22 2005, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nirruden @ Nov 22 2005, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Duke Roger@Nov 22 2005, 05:30 PM
Why do you have to give them gear one piece at a time? You can't put four pieces of armor in?
You can... Just don't hand them the BAG.
[/b][/quote]
Oh...yeah. :lol:

I'll occasionally equip a pet with random useless gear, like the Kylong? armor from Howling Stones that has some HP on it that would otherwise go on my unplayed rogue alt.

Fun times: as a lowbie, say level 8, hunting Orcs in GFay/Crushbone till I got a Rusty Scythe, giving it to my skelly pet, watch him mow down mobs like a Briggs & Stratton.

[Jebasiz]

Mages make good additions to any group with pets or that needs additional solid DPS, and their chain-stunning air pets can reliably tank things that would leave Jaboner crushed into a delicately flavored pate.


Heh, I have yet to see a mage pet live significantly longer then lost soul. They do tank better..but not to the extent that would matter 99% of the time. Even with a full set of summoned gear..it doesn't matter much. IE they're not pet tanking Creator, or similar hitting mobs.

[Sinderella]

Nirruden, thanks :) That's a lot of detail to take in. I had no idea Necro's were so complicated!!

[Mallakith]

omg the rusty scythe was awesome!

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Nov 23 2005, 07:18 PM
Heh, I have yet to see a mage pet live significantly longer then lost soul. They do tank better..but not to the extent that would matter 99% of the time. Even with a full set of summoned gear..it doesn't matter much. IE they're not pet tanking Creator, or similar hitting mobs.
Nope, they're not - with mobs hitting as hard as they do in modern content, a few missed swings due to an occasional stun are mostly meaningless. (Helps with complete healers, though...)

Go back to an older expansion, or lower level pets though, and the air-pet's stun will out it as the better tank over time. It's not noticeable in modern content - things just hit too bloody hard, and it totally drowns the difference. Besides, I'm not claiming mages solo better, only that their pets tank better - and I'm not sure that's really in doubt.

New folks, in case it wasn't clear: Don't expect the summoned armor to make your pet into a tank capable of holding off the Creator. Pet tanking isn't reliable on the deep end of the pool.

[Jebasiz]

Older expansions(luclin and older) where it'd make a difference worth anything, Legacy of Zek(level 61 PoP pet) can tank fine.

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Nov 28 2005, 07:50 PM
Older expansions(luclin and older) where it'd make a difference worth anything, Legacy of Zek(level 61 PoP pet) can tank fine.
(sigh) I can't tell if you're being obtuse, or just helpfully clarifying, so I'm going to assume you're just trying to be helpful, and think I'm a retard.

Pet gear > none. Mage pet > Necro pet. Necro > Mage. That's all that needs be said on this topic, which was only tangentially related to the thread's topic (pet equipment) anyhow... unless there was something else I was missing?

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Nirruden@Nov 28 2005, 03:44 PM
unless there was something else I was missing?
and... today's mobs > all pets :P

[Jebasiz]

I don't really know if I'm being helpfull or not. This topic is kinda retarded. Equipping your pet for hps is just not needed. You're either fighting content when 800hps doesn't mean shit and you're pet is dead at first agro anyway, or you're fighting content where you're fine without your pet having another 800hps. There's very little to no middle ground.

[UsulDaNeriak]

i remember, giving my low lvl pet an exe axe in overthere east side. lvl 15 or so. man that was fun)

Usul

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Nov 28 2005, 08:52 PM
I don't really know if I'm being helpfull or not.* This topic is kinda retarded.* Equipping your pet for hps is just not needed.
At your level? I agree.
At level 12? I agree.

Of course, it's not needed, any more than wearing equipment in Vxed is needed... but it doesn't hurt if you're going to be PET TANKING either. I'd argue that the ability to give a Bone Walk pet (the old level 8 pet) an extra 130AC and 1000HP is potentially very useful indeed (that's nearly twice the AC of Virtue and ~2/3ds the HP). Since the pet only has ~200 to start (according to our pet stats thread), this is a significant alteration - the equipment is bringing him to 6 times his normal hp...

In addition, unlike Virtue, it doesn't wear off. :ph34r:

I'd argue that this tanking utility remains nice, but declines steadily as you level up, even more so after 29 and DD or 34 and Invoke Fear, because at those points you really should spend more time kiting (aggro or fear) than tanking.

After about level 61, it's probably best not to worry about armor/hp gear most times. If you're facing anything from upper-end PoP and higher, armor and hp gear won't matter, as the foes simply hit too hard. 1000hp gets your pet ONE extra hit in Vxed (he'll get pasted anyway) and probably 2 or three in Halls of Honor.

I *think* this is pretty much the same point you're making... We do still give help to the new necromancers, right? We're not falling into the "65+ EQ is the only EQ" trap... are we?

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Rijak@Nov 28 2005, 08:48 PM
and... today's mobs > all pets :P
Actually, it's usually "today's mobs > me"... at least, it is in the planes. I just got Fire flagged the other day, and I'm not planning to tank any of those guys either.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Nirruden@Nov 28 2005, 04:14 PM
I *think* this is pretty much the same point you're making... We do still give help to the new necromancers, right? We're not falling into the "65+ EQ is the only EQ" trap... are we?
i don't think that's the case here... even levelling up pet tanking is very much a novelty... 1-30 i was tanking with temperance as a necro and my pet simply wasn't able to get aggro off of me... or off of the tank of any group i was in... 30+ was kiting

giving a pet weapons for more DPS is nice... but hp/ac is extremely limited... the only time i really use it, back then or now, was in a farming situation where my pet was tanking an add for a decent period of time (i.e. if i am soloing in cazic thule or something similar)

i'm not saying i wouldn't take it, just that pet hp is rarely ever part of the equation

[Dranul]

Growing dependant on methods that you know you won't be able to use later one is also a bad idea. Honing the practice of fear and aggro kiting to an art form earlier in your career can save headaches later on when getting clipped because of bad timing or underestimating the mob's run speed or not realizing the radius of social aggro or not properly analyzing the amount of room you have to run in or not paying attention to pathing roamer or any number of things will be largely fatal in comparison to the earlier levels.

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Rijak@Nov 28 2005, 09:53 PM
1-30 i was tanking with temperance as a necro and my pet simply wasn't able to get aggro off of me... or off of the tank of any group i was in

::Scratches head::

You mean you stood in melee and tanked alongside the pet, right? Or did you mean that you stood in melee range and the pet could never steal agro off you while you were in melee? I'm not entirely sure what you mean... (I must need to get rid of some of this blood in my caffeine stream.)

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Nirruden+Nov 28 2005, 11:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nirruden @ Nov 28 2005, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Rijak@Nov 28 2005, 09:53 PM
1-30 i was tanking with temperance as a necro and my pet simply wasn't able to get aggro off of me... or off of the tank of any group i was in

::Scratches head::

You mean you stood in melee and tanked alongside the pet, right? Or did you mean that you stood in melee range and the pet could never steal agro off you while you were in melee? I'm not entirely sure what you mean... (I must need to get rid of some of this blood in my caffeine stream.)[/b][/quote]
summoned and buffed pet (didn't get any toys back then 'cause i was a poor newbie 'till my mid-40s)... got a temp if i could afford... equipped my rusty dagger and tanked alongside my pet throwing in taps and the one or two decent dots we get pre-30... along with banshee aura at L16 i think

i can't remember my pet ever grabbing aggro or dying (or me, for that matter once i got pulling singles down)... so whether the pet had 100 or 1000 hp really didn't make a difference

[Dranul]

Originally posted by Rijak@Nov 29 2005, 02:58 PM
summoned and buffed pet (didn't get any toys back then 'cause i was a poor newbie 'till my mid-40s)... got a temp if i could afford... equipped my rusty dagger and tanked alongside my pet throwing in taps and the one or two decent dots we get pre-30... along with banshee aura at L16 i think

i can't remember my pet ever grabbing aggro or dying (or me, for that matter once i got pulling singles down)... so whether the pet had 100 or 1000 hp really didn't make a difference
Well, that's the thing. Mobs are coded to turn on any PC in melee range, no matter how much hate the pet has developed. I'm not surprised in the least that your pet never pulled aggro from you.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Dranul+Nov 29 2005, 10:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dranul @ Nov 29 2005, 10:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Rijak@Nov 29 2005, 02:58 PM
summoned and buffed pet (didn't get any toys back then 'cause i was a poor newbie 'till my mid-40s)... got a temp if i could afford... equipped my rusty dagger and tanked alongside my pet throwing in taps and the one or two decent dots we get pre-30... along with banshee aura at L16 i think

i can't remember my pet ever grabbing aggro or dying (or me, for that matter once i got pulling singles down)... so whether the pet had 100 or 1000 hp really didn't make a difference
Well, that's the thing. Mobs are coded to turn on any PC in melee range, no matter how much hate the pet has developed. I'm not surprised in the least that your pet never pulled aggro from you.[/b][/quote]
good point... but the fact remains that this is a more efficient way to xp at those levels than any method that involves a pet tanking

i can't think of any situation L1-L70 where pet tanking has an advantage over tanking with your pet (at early levels) or kiting (at later levels)... so how many hp your pet has is mostly irrelavant

sure, mages pet tank... but this is mostly 'cause they can not snare or lifetap for health as we can... and, from what i've seen, they are less efficient than us as a result

[Dranul]

The only arguments I can make for pet tanking are that 1) it's a fun change of pace, especially when acting as a one man group on undead mobs and 2) farming plat or baz items.

[Mystiqat]

where pet tanking has an advantage over tanking with your pet
This confuses me, I hope taking it a bit out of context this way doesn't change your meaning, but could you explain what you mean here?

I've seen several instances where allowing my pet to have agro allows me to keep casting. I do it in Veksar all the time, slowed mobs just don't hurt the pet much. I did it a lot last night, while working on my 9th Coldain ring...I killed several light blue and blue mobs, most of them summoned, letting pet keep agro let me stack dots, without being summoned and having to tap tank.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Mystiqat@Nov 29 2005, 10:58 AM
where pet tanking has an advantage over tanking with your pet
This confuses me, I hope taking it a bit out of context this way doesn't change your meaning, but could you explain what you mean here?

I've seen several instances where allowing my pet to have agro allows me to keep casting. I do it in Veksar all the time, slowed mobs just don't hurt the pet much. I did it a lot last night, while working on my 9th Coldain ring...I killed several light blue and blue mobs, most of them summoned, letting pet keep agro let me stack dots, without being summoned and having to tap tank.
that would fall into the farming situation dranul mentioned and i mentioned earlier... though, personally, i tend to cast dots while i tap tank... but i have a decent amount of avoidance AAs, so interruptions aren't too common in a spot like veskar

but yes, if you FD-off aggro and keep your distance your pet can maintain it

[Jebasiz]

Anything your pet can tank, you can tap tank better. When you're tanking you don't have to worry about out agro'ing your pet either..so it's faster kills. Maybe not efficient as pet tanking early on..but for FFS, pet tanking above level 50-ish is lame as shit..and totally inefficient to begin with. What's a bit more wasted mana/time when you choose to fight like that to begin with?

[Nirruden]

For those of you who do pet tank, even if it's only some of the time, I came across this link:

Parse information on pets and summoned armor/buffs: http://www.beastlords.org/forums/index.php/topic,2070.0.html

[Mystiqat]

Ok, first of all still no answer to my question. I'm sure it was a typo, so trying to get clarification. The quote mentions pet tanking vs tanking with your pet, unless this is some obscure semantic BS, I'm seeing the same thing said twice.
Lame as shit, how? My pet is a tool, I use it if needed. Killing 5+ mobs one after the other, I save a lot of mana by using dots + pet vs tapping them all to death while being summoned and pounded on. I'm glad your gear + AA's allows you to tap through all that, mine doesn't. I certainly don't pet tank anything I'd do for normal exp, they wouldn't last.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Mystiqat@Nov 29 2005, 12:32 PM
Ok, first of all still no answer to my question. I'm sure it was a typo, so trying to get clarification. The quote mentions pet tanking vs tanking with your pet, unless this is some obscure semantic BS, I'm seeing the same thing said twice.
Lame as shit, how? My pet is a tool, I use it if needed. Killing 5+ mobs one after the other, I save a lot of mana by using dots + pet vs tapping them all to death while being summoned and pounded on. I'm glad your gear + AA's allows you to tap through all that, mine doesn't. I certainly don't pet tank anything I'd do for normal exp, they wouldn't last.
while i am often obscure, or just plain wrong :P

when i said "pet tanking", i meant standing back while my pet tanks... healing, dotting, fding, etc... all in hopes of keeping aggro on my pet and not me

when i said "tanking with pet", i meant the same thing but jumping into the fray as well myself... getting hit, wacking the mob with my big stick, casting dots, lifetapping

i can do either in veskar with the defensive AAs and HP i have (which are a good bit less than you have)... i don't know whether one is terribly different from the other mana-wise over time

if i was only casting lifetap after lifetap, you would be correct (even when people say "tap tank", i think they rarely mean exclusively lifetapping)... but with DoT casting times being basically the same as our taps these days, it just as easy to cast one as the other (i.e. open up with tap over time, cast another dot, get summoned, lifetap, cast a dot, etc.)

[Jebasiz]

You seriously let your pet out agro you and take dmg? That or you have no clue what pet tanking is or when it's even possible.

My pet is a tool too, normally a next to worthless one. If I'm kiting(read:not tap tanking or pet tanking) in 69/1 (the nest, the hive maybe even pofire) and that red con I pull resists darkness..I'll let my pet get agro before I try to darkness again, typically he dies..on the off chance he enrages and lives long enough for me to darkness the mob, I'll fd him and loh him..and he'll live for another few pulls(assuming fd doesn't fail him) until I get another resist. Other then that, he's simply 65-80ish dps..on that type of con.

[Mystiqat]

Ok, I understand your part now, thank you...Rijak

I seriously let my pet have agro when I want him too, as per my example when doing the Coldain Ring quest...I also stated I do NOT let my pet tank when I'm doing EXP, it wouldn't make it. The stuff my pet was tanking what green/light blue/blue...not serious exp mobs, quest mobs. I stated this. My pet lived, I seem to have a least a little clue when it is possible to pet tank. I have also sacrificed my pet when a snare was resisted, bone chips are cheap. I fail to see where you insulting my intelligence and/or knowlege means I should tap my way through 5+ mobs rather than let my pet help me.

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Rijak+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rijak)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>when i said "pet tanking", i meant standing back while my pet tanks... healing, dotting, fding, etc... all in hopes of keeping aggro on my pet and not me
when i said "tanking with pet", i meant the same thing but jumping into the fray as well myself... getting hit, wacking the mob with my big stick, casting dots, lifetapping[/b]
I don't distinguish between these two. I do the former only when there's a good reason not to kite, root rot or do the latter method. In both cases the pet takes damage (has agro) some of the time and thus they both include pet tanking to me.

A tank takes damage - the only way a pet isn't tanking, is if it's not getting hit. If it's not getting hit, armor is pointless. For Jeb, and Rijak, and Mystiqat and myself - NONE of us are buying armor when we're kiting.. so why are we even having the discussion?

Originally posted by Mystiqat+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mystiqat)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The quote mentions pet tanking vs tanking with your pet, unless this is some obscure semantic BS, I'm seeing the same thing said twice.[/b]
Clearly, I'm not alone in how I view this.

Originally posted by Jebasiz
pet tanking above level 50-ish is lame as shitI do what I must do to survive and emerge victorious. If the pet takes damage or holds agro, or never gets used at all, then so be it. Victory is never lame.

Originally posted by Jebasiz
You seriously let your pet out agro you and take dmg? That or you have no clue what pet tanking is or when it's even possible. (snip) the nest, the hive maybe even pofire
Did you kite at level 4? 12? 15? 20?

People talking about pet tanking aren't talking about doing it in the Hive. They're not talking about Ilsalin, Dreadspire, Time, Fire, Creator missions, Anguish, MPG, RSS, or any other zone where a necromancer will be kiting. They might be talking about Veksar, Befallen, Highpass, Marus Seru, Forgotten Halls, and so forth.

Originally posted by Me
Most necros will not bother with more than the "pet toys" set at the top, because it's rare to be pet-tanking. ~1000hp/~130AC/~10resists is next to nothing in modern content. Mobs that are fought at the high end will simply obliterate a pet in an eyeblink. (Necromancers don't tank in Vxed...)<!--QuoteBegin-Me@
New folks, in case it wasn't clear: Don't expect the summoned armor to make your pet into a tank capable of holding off the Creator. Pet tanking isn't reliable on the deep end of the pool.[/quote]<!--QuoteBegin-Me
After about level 61, it's probably best not to worry about armor/hp gear most times. If you're facing anything from upper-end PoP and higher, armor and hp gear won't matter, as the foes simply hit too hard. 1000hp gets your pet ONE extra hit in Vxed (he'll get pasted anyway) and probably 2 or three in Halls of Honor.[/quote]
Yeah, I thought I mentioned how necromancers facing level-appropriate content at your level don't pet tank at least once... But then...

Not all necromancers are level 70.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Nirruden+Nov 29 2005, 01:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Nirruden @ Nov 29 2005, 01:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't distinguish between these two. I do the former only when there's a good reason not to kite, root rot or do the latter method. In both cases the pet takes damage (has agro) some of the time and thus they both include pet tanking to me.[/b]
i guess i distinguish between the two because in one case the necro is trying to avoid personal aggro and, in the other case, you just don't care... my basic assumption is that it is quicker and easier to not have to worry about getting hit in the kind places you have mentioned

<!--QuoteBegin-Nirruden@Nov 29 2005, 01:23 PM
A tank takes damage - the only way a pet isn't tanking, is if it's not getting hit. If it's not getting hit, armor is pointless. For Jeb, and Rijak, and Mystiqat and myself - NONE of us are buying armor when we're kiting.. so why are we even having the discussion?[/quote]
i also don't buy armor or bother to get my pet an hp buff in veskar and similar spots... but it's definitely a matter of personal preference... i've never tried it any other way, so discussion is good to see alt. methods... myst's way might very well be better, or at least just as good :)

[Jebasiz]

They might be talking about Veksar, Befallen, Highpass, Marus Seru, Forgotten Halls, and so forth.


Heh..yeah, you can tap tank more time efficiently in Veksar then your pet can tank for you. IE you'll clear more camps, get more exp and loot with you tanking and dotting there, vice letting your pet tank. Chardok and Sebilis are the same.

Heh, a moss snake can kill our first pet. Did you not tank for your pet at all at level 4? I know I did, I had to..just like level 12.

Not all necromancers are level 70.

heh my last post..where you quoted me was pretty well directed at mystiqat. Who not only is level 70, but is wearing ep and time gear. I had that gear(that what was actually in the game), at level 65 without any aa's other then what PoP and previous expansions had available ..I KNOW mysti can tank better then her pet.

Stop taking what I type out of context. Obviously, if a level 20 necro reads this it's safe to assume he/she is not the intended audience of my previous post..or this one.

[Nirruden]

i guess i distinguish between the two because in one case the necro is trying to avoid personal aggro and, in the other case, you just don't care.The only difference is semantic, and how fast (or if) the necromancer gets into melee, in my mind. If the pet's taking damage, it's tanking. Now, the reasons may be varied and numerous...

i also don't buy armor or bother to get my pet an hp buff in veskar and similar spots...
I rarely go to Veksar, and most times when I do even I don't bother to get armor, and I have a 70 mage on a second computer five feet away that can summon it for free, as long as I bother to log her in. (I'm lazy, I admit it... :P) It's still not wrong to say that the pet armor would positively impact the tanking ability of my pet if he's going to tank.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Nirruden@Nov 29 2005, 01:47 PM
and I have a 70 mage on a second computer five feet away that can summon it for free, as long as I bother to log her in. (I'm lazy, I admit it... :P) It's still not wrong to say that the pet armor would positively impact the tanking ability of my pet if he's going to tank.
the truth comes out... you're protecting your mage bot's toy business! :P j/k

i'm sure you are correct though, armor does help obviously... and pet tanking is a place i've ventured way too infrequently to make a educated judgement on... i'm just in the argumentative mood today

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Rijak+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rijak)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>the truth comes out... you're protecting your mage bot's toy business![/b]
It's true! I'm planning to sell enough pet toys to addict the whole world, and those pesky necromancers keep getting in the way! BAH!

(I know you're kidding, but just so everyone knows my biases: it's my wife's mage... and she HATES summong toys, so I could care less about her business. It's still good form to donate to mages before you ask them to cast that many spells for your pet, just like folks donate to clerics and chanters for buffs.)

<!--QuoteBegin-Jeb
Heh..yeah, you can tap tank more time efficiently in Veksar then your pet can tank for you. IE you'll clear more camps, get more exp and loot with you tanking and dotting there, vice letting your pet tank. Chardok and Sebilis are the same.[/quote]
I'll have to test it - I haven't been back to Veksar in a long time, but I think it's untrue for me, at least for now. I just don't have your gear, or your AA. Most of my equipment falls in the 45-90hp range, with some MM pieces above that, and a DoN piece or two. For comparison's sake, I self buff to 3Khp and thought the Halloween mask was an awesome face upgrade.

I suspect that my focused pet's huge regen rate (while FD if needed) exceeds my mana regen rate enough to make a mixture of pet-tanking (with slow) and summon kiting more effective than trying to use my mana bar to power through camps as fast as possible in Veksar.

This should hold true (with greater reliance on my mana and taps) against things I can't slow, I bet. Later, when I'm all big and powerful, you can show me how the big kids do it, and I'll watch with rapt attention, I promise. In the meantime, I'll still pet tank to balance my mana usage over time.

Heh, a moss snake can kill our first pet.
Not mine. :lol: I'd give him a belt, and even moss snakes can't kick for 650 damage. UBA! UBA, I say! (Ahem.)

[Jebasiz]

Heh, when I first was killing trakanon solo at 65..I couldn't do it with my pet fighting all the time. I had to pet hold him so he could regen through the dot dmg and melee dmg he took when I fd'd before being punted/ss'd. That or he'd die. Anytime your pet is out agro'ing you..you're simply holding your own dmg back to significantly for it to be efficient for exp purposes, but it can work in a pinch...

It's funny you mention regen rates..if YOU sit down you regain mana back extremely quickly between fights.

What I used to do in dungeons, was either root rot or tap tank until the mob would just try to run away (while darknessed they don't go anywhere) around 20% life and then I'd sit down and med while my pet and residual dot dmg killed the mob(s). That way you can get 10-15% mana back while your pet isn't getting wasted, yet the mobs still die.

I'll spend more mana if it makes me more efficient over time heh. Waiting around at more the 30% mana because your pet kills slow is just poor mana/time management.

[Mystiqat]

i can't think of any situation L1-L70 where pet tanking has an advantage over tanking with your pet (at early levels) or kiting (at later levels)... so how many hp your pet has is mostly irrelavant
Ok, my first post in this big mess was trying to address this, the any situation part. I just finished my 9th Coldain ring last night, I did 4 of the "head" fights, one right after the other. The example that popped into my mind right away was the the Peffin fight. For those that haven't done it or don't remember, I'll describe the fight set up a little. Giant Fort in EW, Peffin is fought at the fire, surrounded by 6 or 7 giants and all of them are perma-rooted. They were all light blue con to me and summoned. I parked my pet with "guard" had it attack a giant, then I put it on hold. My reason being this, I wanted the pet to have agro. I couldn't keep stacking dots while being summoned into this mass of giants, that would all pound me at once. One on one with any of them would have been fine, but 6ish mobs pounding on me at once does not improve my spell casting abilities nor would I have mana to tap them all down. I ended up getting summoned anyway, but I at least stacked a few dots first. I also didn't leave my pet out of range the whole time, I let it come back in and fight some. I did similar for many of the other fights, it was easier to let my pet have agro while I stacked dots on multiple mobs.
None of this has any bearing on equiping pets though, I didn't, I rarely do.

[Rijak]

perma-rooted mobs might be a good exception... i've toyed with the idea of trying this on a mob like the IV, but never actually done in practice

[Nirruden]

Waiting around at more the 30% mana because your pet kills slow is just poor mana/time management.
Who said anything about waiting around? If I can pull, I do.

It's funny you mention regen rates..if YOU sit down you regain mana back extremely quickly between fights.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.

My pet will also regen health between fights, and I believe he will do so notably faster than my meditating mana bar if I put him into FD mode, as I said. Even if not, his low health won't stop me from making the next pull and tanking it myself or kiting it, if I have the mana to do so.

Anytime your pet is out agro'ing you.. In other words - right after I FD? It's not a question of "holding back" damage. I know well how to put agro where I want it. Sometimes that's my pet (FD), sometimes it's me (Get into melee range, or turn pet taunt off and hurt mob), and sometimes it's making the mob run in terror. (Though, not the last one so much any more. (sigh))

[Duke Roger]

Pet tanking should be a perfectly viable method, in appropriate content, ie. slowing undead mobs in Veksar at 61 using Legacy of Zek.

[Mallakith]

Hell i remember fear kiting all the way to 53!

Level 1 pet vs the bear in neriak... bear didnt even slow down as it ate him lol happy days :)

I think the problem occurs that since the introduction of the procy mage weapons and hp armour pets are a lot more durable than they used to be... (plus temp line helps a lot).

These days its possible to buff your pet up in PoK run somewhere and pet tank quite well (altho I would wonder about the efficiency). When I was levelling myself that wasnt an option. You summoned the pet in the zone you were hunting and thats what you had.

Times have changed maybe strats have too....