You are all idiots for not using the Jesters

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Quezquotyl@Jun 29 2005, 07:29 AM
There is a nice range item in MPG.. I believe.

On FV you can get for <10K.. so I bet they rot a bit on Blues

Nah, Guild Tribute. ;)
I *demand* guild tribute pet focus!

And Veteran Rewards! I wanna Guild Tribute Jester!

[Xelgadis]

The jester is the reason I maintain we need Aneuk lich models... can't tribute him.

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Felicite+Jun 29 2005, 05:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Felicite @ Jun 29 2005, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Quezquotyl@Jun 29 2005, 07:29 AM
There is a nice range item in MPG.. I believe.

On FV you can get for <10K.. so I bet they rot a bit on Blues

Nah, Guild Tribute. ;)
I *demand* guild tribute pet focus!

And Veteran Rewards! I wanna Guild Tribute Jester! [/b][/quote]

I dunno... though you could not tribute nodrop items.

And jesters are cool... I really fail to see why some folks hate them with such undiluted venom.

I kinda like it when the jester completely refills the cleric or chanter's mana (Im usually fm all the time unless twitching) which means I don't have to twitch as much.

Cig

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Xelgadis@Jun 29 2005, 05:31 PM
The jester is the reason I maintain we need Aneuk lich models... can't tribute him.
I dunno... in lich form never had a jester change me... and if it changed me if I didnt notice lich had faded I cast lich and Im back to normal.

Some people get worked up terribly over the most petty things it seems.

Ah well...

Cig

[richardrahll]

I dunno... in lich form never had a jester change me... and if it changed me if I didnt notice lich had faded I cast lich and Im back to normal.
It bothers some people to get turned into mobs. and If i could filter his constant chatter, or just turn it off, i'd sure do that, and if you're on some kinda dungeon crawl, it can be bad to be turned into a giant. Was in a group where the Jester was constantly making the Ogre SK huge and the shaman was constantly shrinking him. It got old. Most of the jester stuff is not harmful, just annoying after awhile.

I dunno... though you could not tribute nodrop items.
Yes you can turn in no drop items for tribute. I've done it. All no drop really means is that you can't give it to another player. In game they've changed the text to 'no trade', which conveys the intent of it more accurately, in my opinion.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by richardrahll@Jun 30 2005, 06:49 PM
Most of the jester stuff is not harmful, just annoying after awhile.
If you are counting on the jester to say fill your cleric's mana pool to win the encounter you're probably trying something beyond your means.

If you're in a situation where you need to pay attention at key points of a raid, and the jester turns a pc into a mob it can really distract people. It also makes estimating enemy forces difficult when half the raid looks like random mobs, to say nothing of large models and grown pc's obscuring vision.

The benefits on relaxed play may make dealing with the drawbacks acceptable, but you do it on a raid where I have any say and you'll be asked to zone to lose it and return if close enough or get a tl to bind as my desire to win the encounter is greater than my desire that you enjoy whatever your concept of fun may be.

[CigamHelspawn]

Well, I for one think far too many people take things way too seriously and forget that first and foremost this is supposed to be a game and the first idea of a game is to have fun.

If the only way you can have fun with a game is to 'win' then I really feel sorry for you because you miss the point... and I would say those you play with have their fun limited by playing with someone who must always 'win' to consider the game enjoyable to them.

That is why I don't bother with 'uber groups' or 'uber guilds'... they are primarily populated by that type of person.

So if you say you have more fun without the jesters and you admit some have more fun with the jesters (and like I said any necro with lich line can undo an unwanted illusion) then you are demanding that your having fun must always have primacy over someone else having fun.

Seems kinda selfish to me.

And if a jester around will kill your chances of success I posit that your raid force needs better training or that THEY are going after too tough a target if everything has to go off in precision to the infinite degree to succeed.

Most raids I have been on are so clearly overkill they are boring as sin. Half the folks could be afk and on autofollow and there would still be zero risk.

Yet even then a jester pops up and several folks outright lose their minds.

It is, to me, pathetic.

That's my 2 cents on it.

Cig

[Jebasiz]

Most raids I have been on are so clearly overkill they are boring as sin. Half the folks could be afk and on autofollow and there would still be zero risk.


That's what happens when you raid 2-3year old content (aka PoP). Most of tier 1 is groupable or close. To me..taking 50 people there is "pathetic". I will agree to one thing though, it's boring.. Take 54 people to Vishimitar or even Kessdona(although this is trivial). Been to Tacvi lately(probably not).

Well, I for one think far too many people take things way too seriously and forget that first and foremost this is supposed to be a game and the first idea of a game is to have fun.


You're the one that got pissed off when someone said the mob you posted wasn't worth the effort. Ironically, the thread on him(that you posted from allakhazam's) agreed with the other posters here.

EQ is a game and in all games you have different personalities playing, some are laid back and there to simply enjoy whatever comes their way. Other people like to compete and be the best they can be. Others want to have fun and still see everything the game has to offer. It's not pathetic, diversity is what makes the world interesting..if the 300-500k people who played EQ didn't give a damn about progression, or "winning" the game..the game would of died long ago.

Not to mention the fact that casual players(those with a brain) know that what today's uber guild is doing today, will be available for them to do after an expansion/level cap increase or tons of new AA and spells. All those compensate for gear and the ability to spend an atrocious amount of time failing the same content over and over again to eventually beat it and move on. That's right, when content is new and there are no guides, or even pictures (forget about guides with pictures) people fail on content. It's true! I've done, and I've done it for years. EQ can be challenging..often times people not paying attention make it very challenging, but some encounters(granted they are few and far between) are very challenging reguardless of who's with you.

That is why I don't bother with 'uber groups' or 'uber guilds'... they are primarily populated by that type of person.


Perhaps due to your attitude, they don't bother with you.(Just a shot in the dark)

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jun 30 2005, 11:21 PM
That is why I don't bother with 'uber groups' or 'uber guilds'... they are primarily populated by that type of person.


Perhaps due to your attitude, they don't bother with you.(Just a shot in the dark)
Were you using the Doom 3 Duct Tape mod when you made that shot? ;)

----------------------------------------

Overall reason I hate jesters... I could care less about the illusions (beetle-me in yxtta was $$). It's the resizing that is really irritating (primarily the shrinking) when line of sight is an issue. Granted, on my necro that's hardly an issue- simply relich. On my sk, however, it can make things more annoying than it has to be... I usually ask my gf to DE illusion my DE sk (:P) at that point. <_<

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by CigamHelspawn@Jun 30 2005, 10:25 PM
So if you say you have more fun without the jesters and you admit some have more fun with the jesters (and like I said any necro with lich line can undo an unwanted illusion) then you are demanding that your having fun must always have primacy over someone else having fun.

Seems kinda selfish to me.
Succeeding at the raid goal is more important than people having fun with jesters, or any intermediary fun period; yes I'll stand by that one without hesitation. Good raids actually require work, and the 'fun' many experience is the accomplishment of beating the encounter, with perhaps many many failures preceding the win as they learn methods to succeed. Anything that negatively impacts the possibility of a raid win should be avoided whenever possible, and not popping a jester is such simple way to avoid yet another set of potential problems. I do not want to have hours of my time wasted because somebody decides to have a little fun and contributes to a raid failing, because that would significantly interfere with everybody's 'fun'.


Is needing your fun with jesters when it can significantly interfere with a raid a bit selfish?

[Xelgadis]

My guild prohibits the use of jesters on raids... solves that problem easy (especially since we primarily raid instanced zones anymore).

[Zeller TP]

Originally posted by Xelgadis@Jul 1 2005, 03:49 PM
(especially since we primarily raid instanced zones anymore)
Lol - does that mean that offenders get removed from the mission and a no-choice zone out?

I like it.

[Xelgadis]

That's the general idea. We haven't had an opportunity to see it enforced yet tho.

[Schaeffer]

Bastard Jesters and they're illusions., especially in OoW. Kept turning me into a murk. The way the screen shook, I felt like I was going to have a seizure, thank goodness for lich illusion!

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 1 2005, 04:21 AM
Well, I for one think far too many people take things way too seriously and forget that first and foremost this is supposed to be a game and the first idea of a game is to have fun.


You're the one that got pissed off when someone said the mob you posted wasn't worth the effort. Ironically, the thread on him(that you posted from allakhazam's) agreed with the other posters here.


That is why I don't bother with 'uber groups' or 'uber guilds'... they are primarily populated by that type of person.


Perhaps due to your attitude, they don't bother with you.(Just a shot in the dark)
1) I did not get 'pissed' at all.

I merely pointed out that the poster you mentioned missed my point entirely.

2) 'my attitude' regarding uber guilds has nothing to do with them not bothering with me. I don't bother with them due to THEIR attitude.

Maybe if you ceased shooting in the dark you might actually hit something.

Your snide bs has not disproven the legitimacy of anything I said in the post od mine to which you replied.

Have a nice day.

<chuckle>

Cig

[Jebasiz]

As a side note, when jester illusions wear off, you're left in lich w/o the associated illusion. IE being in dark possesion and looking like an iksar(in my case).

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Xislaben+Jul 1 2005, 02:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xislaben @ Jul 1 2005, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CigamHelspawn@Jun 30 2005, 10:25 PM
So if you say you have more fun without the jesters and you admit some have more fun with the jesters (and like I said any necro with lich line can undo an unwanted illusion) then you are demanding that your having fun must always have primacy over someone else having fun.

Seems kinda selfish to me.
Succeeding at the raid goal is more important than people having fun with jesters, or any intermediary fun period; yes I'll stand by that one without hesitation. Good raids actually require work, and the 'fun' many experience is the accomplishment of beating the encounter, with perhaps many many failures preceding the win as they learn methods to succeed. Anything that negatively impacts the possibility of a raid win should be avoided whenever possible, and not popping a jester is such simple way to avoid yet another set of potential problems. I do not want to have hours of my time wasted because somebody decides to have a little fun and contributes to a raid failing, because that would significantly interfere with everybody's 'fun'.


Is needing your fun with jesters when it can significantly interfere with a raid a bit selfish? [/b][/quote]
Point the jesterhaters miss is that in dozens and dozens of raidsI have been on where jesters were present not one failed due to the jesters.

Ironicallt two wipes occurred because of the incessant whinespam in raidsay from the jesterhaters because people missed important information due to it being buries in the whinespam.

So truthfully the evidence shows that the jesters should remain in the raids and is the whinespammers against jesters who should get booted from the raids.

Talk about the chicken little syndrome.

<chuckle>

My point is that for all the whining about how jesters 'significantly interfere' it has all been urban myth... since with lots of experience on my part I have seen the jester haters and their whinespam long on allegations and nonexistant on proof on the topic.


Cig

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 2 2005, 01:43 PM
As a side note, when jester illusions wear off, you're left in lich w/o the associated illusion. IE being in dark possesion and looking like an iksar(in my case).
And this s horrible... ummm... how?

8-)

Cig

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Xelgadis@Jul 1 2005, 10:49 PM
My guild prohibits the use of jesters on raids... solves that problem easy (especially since we primarily raid instanced zones anymore).
I find many guilds do.

My point is these rules are based on hysterical paranoia and not legitimate basis because when I ask them exactly how many raids they have had fail totally due solely to jesters I have yet to have one claim many if any... usually it is just a policy implemented to placate a small group of very vocal jesterhaters and little else.

It is like the laws i the real world about cell phone use while driving.

I can think of dozens of situations orders of magnitude more distracting to drivers than cell phone use that are NOT banned... doing makeup, eating, raucous kids etc etc etc.

So when are they gonna ban kids in the car without straightjackets and muzzles?

lol

Cig

[Jebasiz]

And this s horrible... ummm... how?

8-)

Cig



Sigh..I guess I need to state everything.

I'm not unpleased with this effect, infact I like it. What I don't like is trying to open my spell book and not being able to because I have some poison freaking bread on my cursor. Jesters do more harm then good on a raid..and we don't allow them either.

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by CigamHelspawn@Jul 2 2005, 08:56 AM
So when are they gonna ban kids in the car without straightjackets and muzzles?
Probably about the same time some poster here learns to keep their attitude in check.... Needle on the gauge is still pointing at 'never'. But that's just how I see things, YMMV. B)

-----------------------------

Anyone else getting the dreadful (or in some cases... delightful) suspicion that this thread is heading to the state it in was before half of it found it's way to The Inferno?

Oh, and for the record, not everyone in the "uber guilds" has an attitude, as you state. But, often times, even the nice people will make exceptions for people with attitudes such as yours, Cigam.

[Mallakith]

My guild bans jesters on raids mainly cos clerics kept being turned into shit and not realising they werent on their horses any more.. /shrug

lich doesnt drop under a jester illusion (not sure if this has been said before)

PERSONALLY on a raid i can do without the jesters.. they annoy me by spamming crap jokes and turning ppl into mobs etc.. last thing u need in uqua is your raid turning into ghosts as well!!!

In xp groups ill pop one cos its fun and for me xp groupage is where the fun part of the game is. On raids lets focus on the target and have a laugh in chat but not by going ooo i look like quarm!!!

hmmm illusion quarm... mebbe ill sneak pop one in time )

[Dhau]

Point the jesterhaters miss is that in dozens and dozens of raidsI have been on where jesters were present not one failed due to the jesters.

Ironicallt two wipes occurred because of the incessant whinespam in raidsay from the jesterhaters because people missed important information due to it being buries in the whinespam.

so, what you are trying to say is, those raid wipes occured BECAUSE of the jesters, the whiners were merely a byproduct!

Cigam, your attitude here is totally whack, your logic flawed, and your input useless. Perhaps thats why you are never in "uber guilds/groups?"

I mean, defending jesters? Thats like me defending how freaking awesome our new fear spells are and how much better fear kiting is than aggro. Anyone can take that standpoint, they are just a retard if they choose to do so.

Or better yet, its like me going to a WoW forum (i never played WoW) and start rambling BS about how awesome priests are. For the benefit of myself (and others), i'd rather stick to just reading forums than spamming crap in them. Only reason i post here is because i try to contribute to the necromancer community (ie dont waste your fucking time on getting summoners boon focus) because of first hand experience and knowledge i have. i didn't get to lvl 70 , 300aa, and 6500hp unbuff by sucking ass. Take that as a clue. And dont even try to respond back, you just sound like more a retard. Go raid Dain Frostreaver with 50 of your buddies and spam jester to your hearts content, just keep your un-uber opinions to yourself

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 2 2005, 06:11 PM
And this s horrible... ummm... how?

8-)

Cig



Sigh..I guess I need to state everything.

I'm not unpleased with this effect, infact I like it. What I don't like is trying to open my spell book and not being able to because I have some poison freaking bread on my cursor. Jesters do more harm then good on a raid..and we don't allow them either.
Hmmmm a simple click and the bread is gone.

I sometimes find the bread useful, like against mobs that mezz for example.

Sometimes the bread regens too. Neither significantly, but the poison bread at least has the anti-mezz use.

I guess it is all in being openminded enough to see the good in thiungs instead of only seeing the bad in things.

Ah well.

Cig

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Xelgadis+Jul 2 2005, 07:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xelgadis @ Jul 2 2005, 07:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CigamHelspawn@Jul 2 2005, 08:56 AM
So when are they gonna ban kids in the car without straightjackets and muzzles?
Probably about the same time some poster here learns to keep their attitude in check.... Needle on the gauge is still pointing at 'never'. But that's just how I see things, YMMV. B)

-----------------------------

Anyone else getting the dreadful (or in some cases... delightful) suspicion that this thread is heading to the state it in was before half of it found it's way to The Inferno?

Oh, and for the record, not everyone in the "uber guilds" has an attitude, as you state. But, often times, even the nice people will make exceptions for people with attitudes such as yours, Cigam. [/b][/quote]
Seems to me, Xelgadis, it is you who are the one exuding 'attitude'.

Maybe you need to be sent to detention to actually write and comprehend your own sig graphic a few hundred times.

lmao

It is, however, duly noted how you completely miussed the point of the reference.

Not surprising in the least, however, I assure you.

<chuckle>

As for flameage, Xelgadis, a basic perusal of the thread will show all such coming from or provoked by you or your ilk.

And I have come to my conclusion about the attitudes of ubers in their uber guilds over a period of 6 or more years general experience with quite a large cross section of them... funny, they seem quite often to come across just like you do... closedminded, selfrighteous, pompously full of themselves and in a general sense mutually sycophantic.

It is amusing, however, to find someone trying to chide me on attitude and decorum who has their sig file place unnecessary profanity at the end of each of their posts.

How unbecoming indeed! 8-)

So exactly what 'attitude such as yours. Cigam' am I supposed to be putting forth, Xelgadis, since you seem intent on personalizing this? (I have generally spoken in general terms, not personally specific on the whole)

And you didn't speak to the enormous numbers of raids you personally have seen fail either, did you?

Likely your guild had some paranoid windbags (yourself maybe) who as soon as the first day they saw anyone actually having some FUN in the game with the jesters immediately made up a dozen urban myth like 'dangers' and used that to ban them.

Can't have folks having fun in a game now can we?

I still stand by my statement... I have not seen or heard of a single raid that failed just because of jesters... or that any of the issues presented by the jesterhater crowd cannot be easily overcome with just what I would consider a basic level of competent skill in playing.

It is a tempest in an imaginary teapot IOW.

If you wish to prove my position incorrect you are invited to try... but derision and pomposity alone (apparently the tactic of the hypocrite Xelgadis over there) will get you nowhere near that goal.

<chuckle>

Cig

[Xelgadis]

Cigam...

This thread, and your attitude are out of hand again, personally I think the whole thing should go to the Inferno now. You honestly have no clue, none whatsoever, and I grow weary of putting up with your excessive retardedness. I was civil with you once, and you squandered the opportunity for me to remain that way with you.

Please, Cigam, do us all a favor and take this advice:

http://tartarus.alnet.org/pics/stop-posting.jpg

Originally posted by CigamRetardboy
It is, however, duly noted how you completely miussed the point of the reference.
Rest assured, I saw your point of reference, and thought it was as retarded as you are.

And you didn't speak to the enormous numbers of raids you personally have seen fail either, did you?
No, I see no need, and I doubt you did either... If you bothered to do something like that, you're more retarded than I gave you credit for.

In any case, I'm finished dealing with you. Just a hint for the future tho: try pulling your head out of your ass (use a log chain if you have to) and looking at all sides of an issue before you so aptly open your mouth. Why is society so fucked up anymore? because of retards like you.

Oh, and if you think I'm wrong? Ask around here, query the various members for their opinions, just don't go off on them when you're disappointed at what they have to say.

Ultimately, however, do us all a favor- get the fuck out, and don't return.

[Jebasiz]

I mean, defending jesters? Thats like me defending how freaking awesome our new fear spells are and how much better fear kiting is than aggro. Anyone can take that standpoint, they are just a retard if they choose to do so.



The 10 mobs I tried fearing in KT were all immune...The beastiary said some were level 65! I guess my luck sucks..or our fear sucks(maybe both).

It is amusing, however, to find someone trying to chide me on attitude and decorum who has their sig file place unnecessary profanity at the end of each of their posts.

He removed it once, but it was brought back by "popular demand" IE most of us liked it, and asked him to. A simple search should show you that.

As to why I am not in uber groups I have stated as much quite clearly... I would not want to be. I have turned down invitations... I did a /w all <guildname>, saw many folks listed I would not associate with if you paid me large sums of real cash, and politely declined.

You're not in uber groups because you're not 70, you're 65 with 4 aa and 2500hps, "uber" groups fight not only things you can't pull, should you get agro you'd get your ass pounded into the ground. Good groups don't want to spend 30% of their time rezzing and buffing you. I don't care how good you think you are/play, it's a simple fact, you're not equipped anywhere near enough to do anything more then snare and lifetap mobs that are handed to you on a silver platter, in any zone beyond WoS or Rcod(and Rcod is debatable, even though it's completely trivial). I have no clue when you got level 65, but more-then-likely you took alot longer then the 2 days it took most of the people in "end-game guilds".

I personally loathe the word "uber". It classifies people merely due to the content of the game they experience and is a focal point for people who will either never see that content, or won't see it for years after it's released. "Omg I hate you, you have more free time (for one reason or another) then me, and actually play the game well/or enough to see the entire game you pay for, you bastards". Or my favorite "why the hell can't everyone be happy with mediocrity like me". (this applies to you, Cig).

Defending jesters does nothing more then show you lack raid experience. The lack of experience in any content that isn't excessively trivial is evidenced by the fact that you can be distracted by spam/jokes/illusions(or deal with excessive spam and old, tired, boring, completely devoid of humor "jokes") while you're raiding and supposed to be paying attention to what is going on.

Missing buff requests, or patch heal calls...or even fd/run away calls, can result in a complete whipe. When you fight content where one mis-click or failure to read an emote can sabotage the concentration and effort of 53 people over the course of 30 mins or more..you won't want jesters either. "I woulda kited the add, but I err..was a big fucking girplan, and got stuck on a wall. Sorry the add killed me, and the resulting add from my death(combined with the one I was supposed to kite) took out our 8 clerics in 10 rounds(total) and whiped the raid. It sure was funny though, it made me a fucking girplan!

Just guild remove now and buy home owner insurance..with a special payout option for fire damage..because one of those 53 other people is gonna come burn your house down..for wasting an hour of his/her time at 1am on a work night.

53 people x 30mins each = 1590mins, which is about 26.5 hours worth of player time online for your guild..without taking in the amount of time to buff/clear and med to start the encounter..but hey that's worth you being a chimera for 10mins.

As for your claims that my logic is flawed, in ever logic class I ever had BEFORE you can make that claim you have to PROVE it. Where is your proof? I must have missed it somewhere.

Or is it again that your definition of 'flawed logic' translates simply to disagrees with you? Surly seems to be the case, does it not?


More lessons and critiques about logic pls!

So you will excuse me if I do not take your pompous, closedminded, intolerant and clearly selfserving pap 'to heart'. You are not even a blip on the radar to me with illfounded and clearly hysterical pronouncements of yours like above.


Coming from someone that will waste 26 hours of effort by people for a chuckle from a Jester...and then defend it as being "worthwhile".

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Dhau@Jul 3 2005, 06:23 PM
Point the jesterhaters miss is that in dozens and dozens of raidsI have been on where jesters were present not one failed due to the jesters.

Ironicallt two wipes occurred because of the incessant whinespam in raidsay from the jesterhaters because people missed important information due to it being buries in the whinespam.

so, what you are trying to say is, those raid wipes occured BECAUSE of the jesters, the whiners were merely a byproduct!

Cigam, your attitude here is totally whack, your logic flawed, and your input useless. Perhaps thats why you are never in "uber guilds/groups?"

I mean, defending jesters? Thats like me defending how freaking awesome our new fear spells are and how much better fear kiting is than aggro. Anyone can take that standpoint, they are just a retard if they choose to do so.

Or better yet, its like me going to a WoW forum (i never played WoW) and start rambling BS about how awesome priests are. For the benefit of myself (and others), i'd rather stick to just reading forums than spamming crap in them. Only reason i post here is because i try to contribute to the necromancer community (ie dont waste your fucking time on getting summoners boon focus) because of first hand experience and knowledge i have. i didn't get to lvl 70 , 300aa, and 6500hp unbuff by sucking ass. Take that as a clue. And dont even try to respond back, you just sound like more a retard. Go raid Dain Frostreaver with 50 of your buddies and spam jester to your hearts content, just keep your un-uber opinions to yourself
Nope. What I am saying is the raids wiped because of the whinespammers. The topic had nothing to do with it any more than if they had been discussing raisins or no raisins in oatmeal cookies would have legitimately blamed the wipe on oatmeal cookies.

How truly desperate you jesterhaters must be to try and take this example and blame the jesters instead of properly placing the blame squarely where it belongs... right in the laps of jesterhaters such as yourself.

Typical.

<chuckle>

Apparently your opinion about my 'attitude' is entirely based solely on the point that you disagree with it. My, what a closedminded and intolerant attitude you have indeed.

As for your claims that my logic is flawed, in every logic class I ever had BEFORE you can make that claim you have to PROVE it. Where is your proof? I must have missed it somewhere.

Or is it again that your definition of 'flawed logic' translates simply to disagrees with you? Surely seems to be the case, does it not?

As to why I am not in uber guilds I have stated as much quite clearly... I would not want to be. I have turned down invitations... I did a /w all <guildname>, saw many folks listed I would not associate with if you paid me large sums of real cash, and politely declined. I have yet to group or raid with anyone who did not afterwards find my game play skills exceptional. And also have only found one or two who did not state that they enjoyed my company.

So you will excuse me if I do not take your pompous, closedminded, intolerant and clearly selfserving pap 'to heart'. You are not even a blip on the radar to me with illfounded and clearly hysterical pronouncements of yours like above.

Maybe thuggish mockery as a tactic might change the opinions of folks on a third grade playground, but such tactics have little effect upon me other than for me to point them out for what they are.

Let me know when you have practiced more mature methodologies of persuasion, ok?

As for your last two paragraphs of venomous ignorance and intolerance spew you just proved everthing I said above in this post 100% correct and accurate.

If you are an 'uber' (which by your rant I preseme is an accurate assessment) I will wear my 'un-uber' badge with extreme pride I assure you.

DPoC worthless? Because YOU say so?

Jesters only liked by retards is it?

Trying to compare my educated and experience based comments to you going on a WoW forum with no knowledge at all and spouting off?

My my my... you are so pricelessly full of yourself, aren't you? LMAO

How DARE any 'un-uber' challenge the grand pronouncements of an uber like you or your ilk, eh?

And for the record I have quite a bit of experience with all classes except bards (only experience there is from watching my daughter play hers so knowledge there isnt entirely absent, just not first hand).

Want to discuss priests? (clerics) I have one almpst 60 with all spells and epic 1.0.

<chuckle>


Cig

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 3 2005, 02:15 PM
The 10 mobs I tried fearing in KT were all immune...The beastiary said some were level 65! I guess my luck sucks..or our fear sucks(maybe both).
The new fears all suck. The range is 100 too heh, so can't even make a good range pulling tool out of them.

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Xelgadis+Jul 3 2005, 06:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xelgadis @ Jul 3 2005, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Cigam...

This thread, and your attitude are out of hand again, personally I think the whole thing should go to the Inferno now. You honestly have no clue, none whatsoever, and I grow weary of putting up with your excessive retardedness. I was civil with you once, and you squandered the opportunity for me to remain that way with you.

Please, Cigam, do us all a favor and take this advice:

http://tartarus.alnet.org/pics/stop-posting.jpg

<!--QuoteBegin-CigamRetardboy
It is, however, duly noted how you completely miussed the point of the reference.
Rest assured, I saw your point of reference, and thought it was as retarded as you are.

And you didn't speak to the enormous numbers of raids you personally have seen fail either, did you?
No, I see no need, and I doubt you did either... If you bothered to do something like that, you're more retarded than I gave you credit for.

In any case, I'm finished dealing with you. Just a hint for the future tho: try pulling your head out of your ass (use a log chain if you have to) and looking at all sides of an issue before you so aptly open your mouth. Why is society so fucked up anymore? because of retards like you.

Oh, and if you think I'm wrong? Ask around here, query the various members for their opinions, just don't go off on them when you're disappointed at what they have to say.

Ultimately, however, do us all a favor- get the fuck out, and don't return. [/b][/quote]
My what a fact based and legitimately thought out response. NOT.

LMAO

Oh Xelgadis you keep proving me right. About both you and your attitude.

Your response above is:

"I disagree with this person but cannot come up with a single legitimate counter to his points so I will just insult him, call him names, dig up from my sack of inflammatory and juvenile graphics and claim victory due to my generally offensiveness."

You, Xelgadis, are priceless in your lying hypocrisy and clear intellectual impotence.

You do your best to start a flame war and then try and blame your opponent for it.

Ah, haven't sensed a reek like that since I walked the halls of politics.

You see, Delgadis, you can call me all the names in the book, drag out whatever infantile attack graphics you like, it does not affect me one bit.

But it sure shows everyone else what you are about. Quite indeed it does.

And what do I care what your carefully curried clan of ubers thinks unless they can back their claims up a whole lot better than you seem able to. Likely those who 'think' (if you really must try and call it that) like you are a majority because you and your little clique have driven off most others. I have seen it before. Drive off most who disagree then take a vote of your fellow travellers remaining to 'see what is right'... as if right and wrong are decided by a popular vote of a clearly tainted voter pool. LMAO

If you think BS like this drives me off, Xelgadis, think again. If anything it will just get me to stick around even more if for no other reason than to drive you to drink. LMAO.

<chuckle>

Cig

[UsulDaNeriak]

http://hometown.aol.de/Neriaknecguild/sucks2.jpg

[chabeksis]

Cig,

Honestly for someone who seems to be pretty smart I think you are just trying to stir up trouble. You have declared that you have no intention of ever being uber. If you have never been on uber raids before how can you state whether a jester is a benefit or a hindrance to the raid? From a logical perspective you obviously have no basis for your conclusion.

If people who you choose not to associate with do not use their jester AA in situations where you are not present, why do you care? The only conclusion that I can come up with is that you want to argue.

I realize that a lot of people like to argue, and you seem to be one of them, but when others detect that you are arguing just to get them riled up they might respond by being unpleasant. I do not think that calling you retarded is warranted. Mostly because people with mental or physical handicaps are born that way through no fault of their own, and a lot of those people demonstrate a remarkable amount of heroism and courage in overcoming their limitations. You are just being boorish.

I understand your reticence in associating with an uber guild. There are certainly a lot of aspects about the uber guild stereotype that do not appeal to me. I can also understand why you choose to play the way you do, after all enjoyment is the key. Just please be aware that other people want to be uber and they play by different guidelines. There is no reason to criticize people for that, or to start fights about things that do not effect you, especially when you can't in good faith speak to the content that Jeb and Xelgadis see every day.

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 3 2005, 07:15 PM
I mean, defending jesters? Thats like me defending how freaking awesome our new fear spells are and how much better fear kiting is than aggro. Anyone can take that standpoint, they are just a retard if they choose to do so.



The 10 mobs I tried fearing in KT were all immune...The beastiary said some were level 65! I guess my luck sucks..or our fear sucks(maybe both).

It is amusing, however, to find someone trying to chide me on attitude and decorum who has their sig file place unnecessary profanity at the end of each of their posts.

He removed it once, but it was brought back by "popular demand" IE most of us liked it, and asked him to. A simple search should show you that.

As to why I am not in uber groups I have stated as much quite clearly... I would not want to be. I have turned down invitations... I did a /w all <guildname>, saw many folks listed I would not associate with if you paid me large sums of real cash, and politely declined.

You're not in uber groups because you're not 70, you're 65 with 4 aa and 2500hps, "uber" groups fight not only things you can't pull, should you get agro you'd get your ass pounded into the ground. Good groups don't want to spend 30% of their time rezzing and buffing you. I don't care how good you think you are/play, it's a simple fact, you're not equipped anywhere near enough to do anything more then snare and lifetap mobs that are handed to you on a silver platter, in any zone beyond WoS or Rcod(and Rcod is debatable, even though it's completely trivial). I have no clue when you got level 65, but more-then-likely you took alot longer then the 2 days it took most of the people in "end-game guilds".

I personally loathe the word "uber". It classifies people merely due to the content of the game they experience and is a focal point for people who will either never see that content, or won't see it for years after it's released. "Omg I hate you, you have more free time (for one reason or another) then me, and actually play the game well/or enough to see the entire game you pay for, you bastards". Or my favorite "why the hell can't everyone be happy with mediocrity like me". (this applies to you, Cig).

Defending jesters does nothing more then show you lack raid experience. The lack of experience in any content that isn't excessively trivial is evidenced by the fact that you can be distracted by spam/jokes/illusions(or deal with excessive spam and old, tired, boring, completely devoid of humor "jokes") while you're raiding and supposed to be paying attention to what is going on.

Missing buff requests, or patch heal calls...or even fd/run away calls, can result in a complete whipe. When you fight content where one mis-click or failure to read an emote can sabotage the concentration and effort of 53 people over the course of 30 mins or more..you won't want jesters either. "I woulda kited the add, but I err..was a big fucking girplan, and got stuck on a wall. Sorry the add killed me, and the resulting add from my death(combined with the one I was supposed to kite) took out our 8 clerics in 10 rounds(total) and whiped the raid. It sure was funny though, it made me a fucking girplan!

Just guild remove now and buy home owner insurance..with a special payout option for fire damage..because one of those 53 other people is gonna come burn your house down..for wasting an hour of his/her time at 1am on a work night.

53 people x 30mins each = 1590mins, which is about 26.5 hours worth of player time online for your guild..without taking in the amount of time to buff/clear and med to start the encounter..but hey that's worth you being a chimera for 10mins.

As for your claims that my logic is flawed, in ever logic class I ever had BEFORE you can make that claim you have to PROVE it. Where is your proof? I must have missed it somewhere.

Or is it again that your definition of 'flawed logic' translates simply to disagrees with you? Surly seems to be the case, does it not?


More lessons and critiques about logic pls!

So you will excuse me if I do not take your pompous, closedminded, intolerant and clearly selfserving pap 'to heart'. You are not even a blip on the radar to me with illfounded and clearly hysterical pronouncements of yours like above.


Coming from someone that will waste 26 hours of effort by people for a chuckle from a Jester...and then defend it as being "worthwhile".
Oho!

So unless one is 70 one is worthless? My what an attitude. You fit your hear thru doors smaller than dirigible hangars? Im surprised ig you can. LMAO

They get to lvl 65 in 2 days, eh? I might assume such since most have no clue how to play their class. Either they were ebayed or they were PLed so fast that they dont have a clue what the class is about or how to effectively play it... they just run along with them that PLed them and do what they are told, no doubt.

Cigam has been 65 almost a month now... a year ago he was 56. I have quite a large number of toons I play... 27 total but I mainly stick to 20 or so.

Several over 60, 2 are 65. Several more in the 50s and more in the 40s and such.

Unlike those of the uber mindset my goal is not to see how fast I can get to 70. It is to learn what the toon is capable of, what the class is capable of, to move along at a pace that allows me to not miss things and to enjoy myself in the process.

I know... a cardinal sin mindset yo the uberminded miscreant.

As for equipment when I have a need for better I am more than able to get better. I, unlike most ubers, do not suffer the psychological affliction of 'loot envy' that seems so pronounced in you. I am not a tank, as a necro, yet on raids am buffed to 5-6k hps.

And how did fears get into it? Whine whine whine! geez give it a rest! If you really think necros are just wussbags then stop playing one and make a different class if you think the class is worthless, ok?

Interestingly almost every other class thinks necros should be mercilessly whacked a thousand times with the nerf bat. Guess you can't please everyone, can you?

And the term 'uber' is not about where they are in the game. It is an ATTITUDE... one that exudes an aura (usually undeserved) that they are better than everyone else. Their actual level matters little. Even at lvl 10 you can see who will likely be an uber when they advance. They are the ones who value items over skill... they are the ones in a mad dash to lvl 70 then in a mad dash to 1000aas. To them the goal is everything, winning is evertything.. ignoring the path to the goal which the wise person knows well is by far more important. They are the ones who, when proven wrong on the facts, demand to 'duel' to see 'who was right' as if the fact that they (usually a lvl 70 uberfest of equipment) can take out a lvl 20 toon who happens to be played by someone who clearly knows what they are talking about than the uber clearly does means squat. It is the attitude of the ignorant, the closedminded, the intolerant and the bully.

Is it any wonder those it rightfully applies to 'personally loathe' the term because in one word it sums up all that is distasteful, disgusting, unpalatable and wrong with the attitude they swagger around with.

I know homophobic bigots hate that term too... as do racists, sexists and religious fanatics. But their dislike of and complaints about the accurately defined and applied descriptive terms in no way reduces the validity of the terms.

It just reduces the credibility of such that are so accurately described.

If you really think the disgust folks have for ubers like you is because of areas you go to in the game you are desperately deluding yourself.

It is your attitude, not where you have been or what you can do.

I know a great many players who have seen every inch of the game several times over. They have the best items and the best skills.

Are they ubers? Nope.

Because that is not what being /an uber' is.

They do not lord it over anyone, they do not feel they are better than anyone else. They are friendly, kind and helpful to those of lower level. They are the ones who, upon hearing you are going into a dangerous area as part of a quest or whatever offer assistance - not to just show off how uber they are, but out of a sincere caring and concern and just to help... for no reward other than seeing you get what you were after safely.

That is the type of player I try and emulate. I have helped a great many, and intend to help a great many more. Much of my time online is helping folks in game or even outside game (be it looking up info for someone, all the way up to comforting someone who had to have their boyfriend hauled off in cuffs because he destroyed her apartment in a rage). I also work for myself on over 20 toons.

Sure, if I had focussed myopically with all the time and plat I have put into all my toons a single toon would likely be 70 with 2k aas and the best itemd money or looting could acquire... but I would have quit the game long before that out of boredom. I am ADHD so my tastes and incleric or the druid or the terests change often. Sometimes I feel like playing the necro, sometimes the mage, sometimes the monk or the warrior or the rogue or the druid or whatever. Sometimes I just want to wander around seeing what there is to see. Sometimes just do tradeskills. Sometimes just log in to chat with my friends.

Im in no great hurry. Wasn't in a rush to 65 but it came along twice so far... not in a rush to 70, it will come in time as well.

Is it any surprise to me that ubers find my mindset and attitude unfathomable?

Not in the slightest. Just demonstrates their flaw.. that they cannot comprehend anything different than themselves.

For all their boasts of ability they are quite limited indeed. Sad, but they do make it difficult to sympathize with due to the gross offensiveness they perpetuate in themselves.

Mediocrity? Moi? Clearly this person has no idea what is important in life or in games. A pity... but they deserve the ignorance they so desperately wrap themselves within...

Ah well....

<chuckle>

And when someone rants and raves that someone should buy fire insurance because some deranged nincompoop (like himself? after all, he thought of it didn't he?) is gonna run up to your home because of a wipe in a game and burn it down you have to wonder seriously about the sanity of such a person and whether in game or not you should wish to associate with such.

LMAO!

And it is duly noted you noticed my pointing out the illegitimency of your flawed logic crack but again did nothing to show me in error regarding my statement or position in any way.

Coming from a clearly addled and violently unstable sociopath who seems to think it is proper behavior to burn someone's house down because of a failed raid (did they take a machete to the family dog of some fellow player who missed a catch or struck out in little league one has to wonder) I find this amusing, if disturbing, in the extreme.

<chuckle>

Cig

[CigamHelspawn]

Originally posted by chabeksis@Jul 3 2005, 08:36 PM
Cig,

Honestly for someone who seems to be pretty smart I think you are just trying to stir up trouble. You have declared that you have no intention of ever being uber. If you have never been on uber raids before how can you state whether a jester is a benefit or a hindrance to the raid? From a logical perspective you obviously have no basis for your conclusion.

If people who you choose not to associate with do not use their jester AA in situations where you are not present, why do you care? The only conclusion that I can come up with is that you want to argue.

I realize that a lot of people like to argue, and you seem to be one of them, but when others detect that you are arguing just to get them riled up they might respond by being unpleasant. I do not think that calling you retarded is warranted. Mostly because people with mental or physical handicaps are born that way through no fault of their own, and a lot of those people demonstrate a remarkable amount of heroism and courage in overcoming their limitations. You are just being boorish.

I understand your reticence in associating with an uber guild. There are certainly a lot of aspects about the uber guild stereotype that do not appeal to me. I can also understand why you choose to play the way you do, after all enjoyment is the key. Just please be aware that other people want to be uber and they play by different guidelines. There is no reason to criticize people for that, or to start fights about things that do not effect you, especially when you can't in good faith speak to the content that Jeb and Xelgadis see every day.
I stated I have no intention of being an uber. That much is true.

I do have goals of being competent in whichever class I am playing.

I am near EP flagged on three toons... Cig just got KT access recently. Have killed RZ and other mobs I found more difficult (like Bonecracker... geez what a pain!)

I have never said I will not eventually be lvl 70 on several toons (in fact I plan eventually to ve 70+ on all of them) with hundreds of aas on each.

I am just not in a rush to get there. THAT is not the goal of the game for me and likely a majority of all players. The main goal for me is to enjoy the game... which I do or I would not be paying for three accts now would I be? I am not a masochist so no I would not keep paying for something I did not enjoy. (then again a masochist, being a masochist, might do so for their own version of pleasure I guess lol).

I do not equate high level with uber. I defined uber, as most who use the term as a form of descriptive epithet as I do, tend to define it.

Thank you for noticing my intelligence, it is always nice when someone takes the time to note it. I can do no less than take the time to appreciate and thank you for it.

As for stirring up trouble, things were going fine until someone with profanity in their sig file and a couple of his fellow travellers decided to ignore the topic and instead simply hurl ad homina around, making ludicrous unfounded claims and making unproven pronouncements as they swaggers around in their glorified uberness against someone whose only two 'crimes' were:

1) to have a position they disagreed with, and

2) to demonstrate their lack of ability to properly support their own positions or disprove those they disagreed with in any way other than the laughable practices of saying they are ubers so therefore they are right and to flame those they disagree with yet lack the wit or wherewithal (or actually correct position in the argument) to prevail in a proper debate on the issue.

Which crime is more significant an offense to them seems undecided currently. Time will tell, I'm sure.

<chuckle>

Why I care regarding wholesale conformity of guilds banning use of jesters in raids when there is no legitimate basis for such bans past the hysterical shrieks of analretentive jesterhaters who have not changed their tune once since 5 minutes after jesters went live should be obvious.

Do I really need to go into detail about people should be able to have fun in a game without being clamped down on by those who clearly see the game as a personal extension of themselves alone?

If there was a good reason, by all means.

But in asking for a good reason I have heard nothing but hysterical chicken little "the sky is falling!" hypotheticals each and every one of which can be easily dealt with by application of basic competency in skills.

It is like entering into a gestapo bootcamp and being told to do it a certain way, clearly unjustifiably, "just because we say so".

I have never swallowed that line of reasoning. Not from my parents. Not from the government. Not from my employer. Not from those I associate with IRL. And I am not going to start just because a few tin plated martinet wannabes demand it.

As for wanting to argue, against such mindless campaigns, how can an intelligent person not wish to argue against such?

As for getting the likes of Xelgadis riled up, I put it to you that he was amongst the first to launch into personal attacks in lieu of anything even remotely akin to a legitimate response. Then in raging hypocrisy he then declares the thread a flamefest and tries to blame that on anyone but himself, the chief one to blame for such) and then gets it moved over here.

If my legitimate presentations of valid argument can cause the likes of him to reach for their heart meds or cause them to grind their teeth to nubs or have them losing sleep I will consider:

A) They do it to themselves, it is not me since I am merely making legitimate points, and

B ) that I am doing the universe a favor both by pointing out such wingnuts for what they are and for causing them some personal turmoil in the process.

As for me I find their raving antics quite amusing.

As for being boorish I think Xalgadis and crew qualify, not I. ( I merely presented my opinion and properly defended it.)

to wit:


Definition
boor [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
a person who is rude and does not consider other people's feelings

boorish [Show phonetics]
adjective
I found him rather boorish and aggressive.

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

It is quite clear that I am the one defending... it is Xelgadis and crew who are being rude and not considering anyone else's feelings but their own. It is clear that to them no one has a right to any position that differs from their own, facts be damned.

<chuckle>

I have no problem with people playing to be uber... it is when they swagger it around claiming they are superior because of it and that their unfounded, baseless and unproven pronouncements outweight legitimate, logical and well reasoned opinions put out that they just disagree with that I take issue... especially when a nitwit with profanity in his sig and who seems to thin ad homina derision and mocking outweigh logic and fact based reason tries to chide me about being 'offensive'... that kinda sums it up right there, now doesn't it?

<chuckle>

The content they see is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is a group of 6s going on a raid against Dvinn or a group of high levels against Quarm in time or into Anguish... skill will out.

And no one has shown me legitimate reason to ban jesters and beyond being fun I have pointed out many cases where they can be helpful (such as fully restoring mana, the poison bread against mezzing mobs and so on) and as for illusions or sizes I thought all selfrespecting ubers had an AoN so they can click off unwanted illusions or size changes at will. Or, or course, just get a chanter to illusion you to a preferrable illusion. or get a wood elf illusion hat or a DE mask from the SH casino. As for the spam if you dont like it turn it off in options. As for bread or drink if you dont want it destroy or drop it. Not all that tough. As for mounts in a great many raids, inside, you cant use them anyway. But see above about dealing with unwanted illusions.

But why do they seem to think they have a right to minimize my or anyone elses enjoyment just so they can be lazy or marginally competent?

Maybe you see my point, maybe you don't.

It is what it is.

Cig

[chabeksis]

Cig,

Again my point is that there is not any logical basis for preference. Preference is born from experience and personal taste. So when other people with their own taste experience content different from the content you experience they might come up with a different conclusion then you. Either way it does not really matter at all, especially when neither one of us are associating with the people who share a different opinion than yours. In matters of taste there is no disagreement.

Also I am having a hard time grasping why you care if the uber guilds have a no jester policy. Personally I could care less what consenting adults do with their time as long as it is not hurting me. If there are a large contingent of ubers who are yearning against the opressive yoke of the no jester rule (lol) then they are free to leave or start their own guild. Again the reason why no one else should care is because it is a video game and it does not effect me or you in the slightest bit.

Certainly decorum ought to be both valued and sought after, and I know you are more than smart enough to see how you are provoking people. I know for a fact that both Xelgadis and Jeb are far from how you are portraying them. Both are not only helpful on the board in general, but have gone out of their way to give a non uber like myself scores of advice.

I am done with thread just know that I think respect and maturity are usually exemplified on this board, and it is everyone's responsibility to comport themselves in a manner consistent with what Brenlo envisioned when he started this board.

[Jebasiz]

What in the fuck do you know about my attitude? You *think* you know alot...but all you do is talk out your ass, and criticize how guilds you'll never be in operate. Both stances are ignorant as all fucking hell.

When this board first started it was a hand full of experienced necromancers(like myself) writing guides and answering questions for everyone else. Over 2 years later this is one of TWO successfull sites for this community. Obviously it's because Keystone and I were 2 arrogant fucks that only cared about...erm, our post count? That's not it. Wait wait wait..it's to show everyone how fucking smart we are...NO.

It was to freaking help people develop into knowledgable necromancers that can enjoy the game...An informative database, where constructive posts are written in response to intelligent questions. Instead we have you here, making accusations and summizing about the attitudes of people who HELP SHAPE THIS GAME. Believe it or not..the necromancers who frequent this board, and eqnecro shape our class.

I don't know where your fucking clueless and combative ass gets off telling people in some of the best guilds in all of eq their policies are wrong..it might carry some weight if maybe there was something evidenced by your character that you've killed something after Grummus(I've tanked him..for guilds of lesser progression then my own), but until you do something current..the stance you take and accusations you make about raiding and rules set forth to make a large group of people successfull at raiding carry ZERO weight.

I could offer people investment advice...or make fun of rules in water polo, and be about as qualified as you are here.

The best thing you can do is A) Shut up and learn from people here, B) leave and not come back. You can very easily go lower the IQ's of another messageboard..just like you do here, with each insanely stupid post.

Inc 3 page reply from a completely stupid, arrogant fuck.

[Xelgadis]

Cig, just a suggestion... attempt to make your invalid points with a post length of less than 80 pages please (thought my mouse wheel was going to burn up :P). The fact that I find your ludicrous replies funny as all hell is about the only thing that remotely keeps me reading them. The last couple posts however... fuck that... reading shit that long and pointless would bring back memories of my Econ classes in college.

Do any of us here really give a shit what you have to say? No, sorry to break it to you, honey. Does the fact that you have 27 characters make you some sort of self-proclaimed expert on all things EQ, and the policies of end-game guilds? Once again, no. If you can't be constructive in your interactions with others, shut up. One outburst is fine, two is pushing it, you've stepped far beyond the bounds of being reasonable, and your reputation here is ass as a result.

The time has long passed for you to attempt to make a valid point, without resorting to being an asshat. Your brief history here has discredited anything that you have said, and might say in the future. Your best course of action, given this, is to pack up and leave. Realize that people will not always agree with what you have to say, and after the shit that's spewed out of your ass in this thread... you'd be hard pressed to find someone who remotely cares about anything that you have to say.

While you have been a source of great entertainment, you've started to become dry, so just leave.

----------------------------------------

Wow, I made my point without making my post 80 pages long. Perhaps you should follow this example. I feel you won't tho, you hate me now... excuse me while I go into the corner and /cry for a while :rolleyes:. Then I can pout while you make a few 80 page posts ripping apart everyone who's posted since your last visit... Then we can continue the circle again and again (goodie!), til you learn to simply shut up and leave. If not, well... we can simply get the clown makeup...

Notice I said to leave several times in this post? Maybe it's a subtle hint... I dunno.

[FCseven]

Cig--Thank you for hijacking a thread on an issue you know nothing about in attempt to draw attention to your illogical views.Do yourself a favor and stfu before you make yourself look like more of an idiot.Stupid ass attention whore.

[Schaeffer]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v168/apdmikey/PWN%20pics/STFU.jpg

Thank You

That is all

[Azrioth]

:lol: Go Jeba! RUNNING RIOT!

[Aryse Andenter]

Originally posted by FCseven@Jul 4 2005, 02:49 AM
Cig--Thank you for hijacking a thread on an issue you know nothing about in attempt to draw attention to your illogical views.Do yourself a favor and stfu before you make yourself look like more of an idiot.Stupid ass attention whore.
Beautiful B)

[Schaeffer]

Cig's real problem is he "hates the Playa not the game"...

[UsulDaNeriak]

Calm Down, Cig!

We have accepted your application for the 2005 award.

--- The Jury ---

http://hometown.aol.de/Neriaknecguild/assclown.jpg

[Jebasiz]

/envy @ usul's webspace. I wish I could host as much....

[Dhau]

Cig's real problem is he "hates the Playa not the game"...

rofl

cigam, man, you need to get laid, badly.

not to mention, you realize you are like, trash talking one of the top necros serverwide? if he says something, just accept it as truth and stfu.

everyone hates you, in fact, im going to make a poll too.

and for the record, DPoC from that bloodfields event is still retarded.

[Mallakith]

Sorry cig just read your ramblings more carefully in an attempt to find something to defend but ive had to come to the only conclusion possible:

Click here (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare.swf)

'nuff said

[Keeleys]

I popped a jester on a creator mission the other day. Cuz, well, the casters had all died and I wanted to finish in time for work. He refilled mana on (of course) the ranger first. Refilled the cleric and shaman too, though the cleric was slightly annoyed cuz she got turned into a sentinel and couldn't ride her horse.

Other than that...wow what an obscenely useless bunch of posts.

[Jebasiz]

That's just it though..you don't know what it will do. If you want beneficial veteran aa's use steadfast servant. That's reliable and predictable. You don't raid successfully creating more unknowns that people have to account for. This game is simple 90% of the time..when it gets involved, the LAST thing you do is add something like a jester.

It could grow you(or make you a big form(IE hulcror)), big deal you say...well it can cause LoS issues, obstruct views, make it hard to target around you, and if you need to kite adds, and you get stuck in a wall..well, you're dead.

Reliable, predictable, beneficial "assistance" is always welcomed...Having no clue what he's gonna do for who..is just something else you have to account for, and nothing you can plan on happening(IE it's not only useless, it's a hinderance).

Jesters are fine..I've done many COA "aug runs" where everyone brings out a jester..it's fun everyone gets turned into all sorts of mobs, grown, shrunk..they tell jokes and make bread pop up on my cursor...It's fine. I don't want them on OMM, AMV, Hanvar, Keldovan, Jelvan or Ture. I don't want them in Tacvi, or inktu'ta..or even uqua(even tho we don't do the last 2 anymore).

[Keeleys]

Oh, I certainly wasn't suggesting they be used in difficult places. I think the creator mission is about as trivial as you can get in current content. Generally we pop them AFTER raids are done and we're just screwing around - because as cool as mana or health refill can be on raids, I'd rather not introduce the other issues they potentially provide.

On my necro, I pop it sometimes when soloing. Generally alongside the double xp AA in hopes that it'll refill my mana and allow me to burn down more mobs faster.

I don't hate jesters - as seen by the fact that I use them when it seems productive or appropriate - but there is a time and a place, and top end raids are not it.

[daephyx]

God I hate those damn Jesters. 50 fucking stacks of bread on my cursor.

[GnekroeGnomicon]

Thought I would add a quick thing about jesters...

I was happily popping my jester in hopes of a full mana bar from time to time while kiting in HoH - and for several jesters nothing horrible happened and all seemed right in the world...

Then right while kiting the jester decides hey you need to be closer to the ground -- *shrink*, and hey you need some scales -- *poof* I turn into a fish... as I flop on the ground slower at walk speed I get pummeled by guardians (fd'd at 4% woot).

Not sure if the benefits outweigh the risk of a sudden "tiny fish" cast.

[Poii]

Refresh my memory, plz. Where are there "fish" in HoH? To my knowledge, the jester only uses illusions that pertain to the current zone.

[GnekroeGnomicon]

hmmm... dunno looked like a fish, in my haste to get fd off I could have mistaken it. Might've been a wrulon youngling shrunk kind of looks like a fish. Dunno I could've been high on gnomish spirits!

[BlackHeart]

I think some of you folks take yourselves WAY to seriously.

To Cig: I see your point, and hope you enjoy your jesters, but I disagree with it, and will continue to NOT use them. Except in crowded bazaar rooms of course! It is starting to look like you don't really have a valid point but you have found a sore spot and are trying to rub salt into it. That is a bit like the little kid who tears wings off of flys. While you do seem at least semi-intelligent in your posts, intelligence does not equal wisdom.

To all you others: Ummm. Some of you scare me.

If you disagree with someone, that's fine. But, I don't care who you are, how far you have gotten in the game, or how much uber equipment you have, or how long or how many posts you have on this or any other forum... you really need to step back and calm down a bit. None of that stuff makes you smart or wise, or makes your opinions hold more merit than anyone elses no matter how much you can virtually stomp your feet and throw virtual temper tantrums. They are just opinions. Not law. They are not automatically correct just because you say so.

I don't care if you raid x10 times a week and have all the latest and greatest equipment with the latest and greatest augs in every slot, it does not in ANY WAY prove that you have more knowledge than anyone else who plays the game. The only thing it means is that you have larger chunks of free time which luckily for you coincides with a large group of other peoples free time so that all of you can go do "UBER" things together. How uber would you be if you could only play from 2am to 9am? Not many raid opportunities in that timeslot unless you can speak Japenese or German or some other foreign language.

However, I have wandered off the point, the whole jester question is really kind of silly. The answer is simple for both Cig and his many many enemies and I fail to see any reason why it has taken 4 pages of posts to come to this obvious conclusion:

Jesters...
If you like them, use them. If you don't, then don't.

[Azrioth]

People who play the game more have experienced more and know more. It's not that complicated.

I recognize and respect that.

Jesters - if it's okay to use them, use them. If it's not, don't.

[Schaeffer]

It was dead for a whole week...


Blackheart you bastard!

[Felicite]

Motion to lock all Inferno Posts that have not been active for 12 hours.

Do I have a second?

*removes tongue from cheek*

[Schaeffer]

I'd motion for 48 hours in all seriousnes, but I know you're joking :(

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Jul 22 2005, 02:37 PM
I'd motion for 48 hours
Second!

Call the Roll!

*is the most Nazi-esk of Mods at heart*

[Warspite]

Can't we just let BlackHeart off with a warning, and maybe a good tongue lashing?

[Azrioth]

:rolleyes:

[BlackHeart]

People who play the game more have experienced more and know more. It's not that complicated.


I agree. But playing more long 6 hour raid sessions does not grant any more knowledge or understanding of the game than playing 3 or more 2 hour non-raid sessions. Time is time.

It's the only real gaping flaw in the game design. The only way you can get the huge rewards (raid uber gear) is to be able to sit in front of your computer for long sessions. A guy who puts in more combined time with several smaller sessions cannot hope to earn the same equipment. Every other part of the game rewards him equally. He will earn just as much XP (probably more) , his tradeskills will be just as high or higher, but his equipment will be grossly inferior.

It was dead for a whole week...


Blackheart you bastard!

Yup... I know ;)

Can't we just let BlackHeart off with a warning, and maybe a good tongue lashing?

ummmm... uhhhhhh.... that would be punishment? :)

[Azrioth]

Um, people who raid more know more about raiding...

[Felicite]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 22 2005, 02:51 PM
It's the only real gaping flaw in the game design. The only way you can get the huge rewards (raid uber gear) is to be able to sit in front of your computer for long sessions. A guy who puts in more combined time with several smaller sessions cannot hope to earn the same equipment. Every other part of the game rewards him equally. He will earn just as much XP (probably more) , his tradeskills will be just as high or higher, but his equipment will be grossly inferior.
Jebasiz really illustrated this in a post on another thread. He makes the (completely valid) point that a modern raider can assume 40-55% damage foci on relavent spells. I am using mostly 20%. Even if I had the same spells.. I am never going to hit those DPS levels.

And the only places these things drop are Tacviyxxtaqa - the Ocean Realm of the Elite Slavers in Gates, or Anguish, or from the new level 90 Dragons.

And that's fine.. but wouldn't be cool if I could buy not just a Muram's Anger Aug in DoN (the easy to get focus, ironically) but a current DoN Fire Damage focus one! Sure.. charge me 2000 pts.. make me do Creators for a month.. but give me a way to get it.

I am in that boat.. 2-3 hours a night.. and the three Anguish Guilds on FV raid at 4pm Pacific time. Yeah.. like that will ever happen for me. If I could just get the company to move to Florida.. hmmmm.

[Jebasiz]

He will earn just as much XP (probably more) , his tradeskills will be just as high or higher, but his equipment will be grossly inferior.


Not to beat a dead horse, and believe me this horse died (painfully) along time ago.

People who play in a group or solo setting will know the content that they encounter daily just as well, if not better then the person who is raiding every night for the most part..

The flip-side is..they'll only know what they read about for raid content or group content that they can't take part in due to lacking the newer/newest gear. Where as the people raiding can do just about anything they want, when not raiding.

Doing and reading about something yields entirely different levels of understanding, that's why experience is so important for people in game or at work.

In general terms, a person who has been raiding for a long time will be more knowledgable about the game. Solely due to seeing ALL facets of ALL the content in the game over an extended period of time.

[Felicite]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 22 2005, 02:51 PM
Can't we just let BlackHeart off with a warning, and maybe a good tongue lashing?

ummmm... uhhhhhh.... that would be punishment? :)
Wartspie has a tongue like sandpaper!

I would rather have a Jester lick me (see.. on topic).

[BlackHeart]

The flip-side is..they'll only know what they read about for raid content or group content that they can't take part in due to lacking the newer/newest gear. Where as the people raiding can do just about anything they want, when not raiding.

Doing and reading about something yields entirely different levels of understanding, that's why experience is so important for people in game or at work.

In general terms, a person who has been raiding for a long time will be more knowledgable about the game. Solely due to seeing ALL facets of ALL the content in the game over an extended period of time.



In theory that may be correct. However, a lot of raiders do very little else but raid after getting into an active raiding guild. It takes up almost all of their EQ time so they really don't have a lot of time for "slumming". And even when they do slum, they group with other over-powered raiders so it's not like they get a true concept of what the encounters are like for us poor commoners.

Pure numbers involved kinda prove that theory false though. How many uber-raiders actually post useful information here or on other forums compared to non-raiders? Non-raid useful information? Or are they just too busy to visit forums as well? Maybe we need a poll?

Of course there are those who play 12+ hours a day and do both, and play alts or play with non-raiding friends and broaden their knowledge quite a bit. I cannot even fathom the time involved in that. My butt starts to hurt after a couple hours in the computer chair. Gotta go do something else for awhile.

SOE finaly realized they were alienating a big part of the playerbase and have tried to narrow the gap a bit between casuals and ubers with the last couple of expansions. But, I still havent seen any of the awesome focus's or any armor with 200+ hit points on it, so the gap is still there.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 25 2005, 11:58 AM
In theory that may be correct. However, a lot of raiders do very little else but raid after getting into an active raiding guild. It takes up almost all of their EQ time so they really don't have a lot of time for "slumming". And even when they do slum, they group with other over-powered raiders so it's not like they get a true concept of what the encounters are like for us poor commoners.
every week or two on a slow night i like to go visiting a zone i haven't been to, or been to much before, and just explore it (usually solo, 'cause it's much safer that way)... that's how you really get to know stuff

but researching a zone or encounter is huge too... unless you are the actual raid leader (or puller), you miss a lot of the details about the encounter even if you are right there

[BlackHeart]

every week or two on a slow night i like to go visiting a zone i haven't been to, or been to much before, and just explore it (usually solo, 'cause it's much safer that way)... that's how you really get to know stuff


Heh. Me too. Some places in the game I have rarely if ever even visited. But there are a few like Kedge keep, lower guk, Seb, Runnyeye, Permafrost, Dalnir, Keasora and even cazic that I know so well that I almost instantly know if even a single mob is out of place.

Most of these places, Seb especially, I know little nooks and crannys where I can log off or go afk safely without worry of wandering agro. Several lazy Saturday mornings and after noons I have spent in Traks lair, going afk or logging off every couple hours or so.

These places are considered a waste of time to most folks, but I still enjoy them. Maybe that's part of the reason I can't comprehend the uber raid mentality. To me, the game, is not as much fun if you rush through it only focusing on the next goal. It's not a race, and I just can't play it like it is one.

[Jebasiz]

How many uber-raiders actually post useful information here or on other forums compared to non-raiders? Non-raid useful information? Or are they just too busy to visit forums as well? Maybe we need a poll?


Heh, Xelgadis is in the top ranked raiding guild in ALL of EQ and posts here. My guild doesn't exactly suck either(Vishimitar will die this week..leaving us only OMM standing in current content, and tbh we've slacked HARD on both) and I believe we both post here quite a bit for all levels of gameplay.

As far as having to play 10-12hours a day to have a "casual" perspective..that view is very flawed as well. My guild doesn't raid on Friday, we also don't raid on holidays(long weekends), and on Saturday and Sunday we raid..but not until the evening. That leaves alot of time to "slum".

Overpowered:

You have the luxury of getting attuneable items in the bazaar, WoS drops..additional levels and new spells before experiencing somewhat older content. All that more then levels the "playing field" when raiders did it in "elemental gear". A WELL geared necro was around 5khps unbuffed in EP's...now that's commonplace for anyone(at level 70). NC and WoS are roughly on par with PoP in difficulty, sure the named hit a little harder(but not much)...but it's quite close to Elemental planes in how hard mobs hit. If you want more of a correlation, PoFire and WoS each have seperations(walls/castles) signifying the content is about to get harder.

I don't know where you get your information on which you form your opinion of the raiding community...but it's that same community you dislike that regularly stocks the bazaar so you can gear yourself. We also DEBUG the game. Atleast some members of the raiding community backflag alts or just attend open raids as well..and if you don't think their experience makes a difference...

[BlackHeart]

A WELL geared necro was around 5khps unbuffed in EP's...now that's commonplace for anyone(at level 70).

Possible yes. Commonplace? Not at all. Four necros in my guild over level 65. I have the only one with over 4k hit points.


but it's that same community you dislike that regularly stocks the bazaar so you can gear yourself.

That's odd, I can't remember buying even one single 200+hp piece of raid gear from bazaar. And Not one 40% or better focus item either. Not even once. I CAN remember doing a butt-load of LDoNs and recently some DoNs for my equipment though. Admittedly, I have SEEN a lot of slightly better gear than some of mine for sale in bazaar, but at astromnomical prices. But still not much gear that I can't match on my own, or at least come close doing DoNs or even LDoNs.


We also DEBUG the game.

Bull pookie. Completly False. You DEBUG raiding content. Content that YOU want to do. Content that most of us casuals will never see anyway. And DEBUGGING is not the reason that you play the raiding content, it's just a by-product. Just like the rest of us "Debug" LDoNs and stuff like the new Unrest missions. I highly doubt that any uber-guild leader has ever held a guild meeting to say, "Hey guys, SOE really needs our help with this new expansion. Lets go check it out, even if we get absolutely nothing for our efforts it will all be worthwhile for the overall good of the EQ community." Want proof? Just look at how many ubers quit the game or at least whined about quitting when GoD turned out to be so buggy.


Atleast some members of the raiding community backflag alts or just attend open raids as well..and if you don't think their experience makes a difference...

That's nice. But it's still RAID content. It still involves people who RAID. People who can spend more than 2 hours at the computer at one sitting. Still the goal is to get your alts and other people to be able to get into zones so they can go on RAIDS.


I don't know where you get your information on which you form your opinion of the raiding community

It's not rocket science. Read your last last post and note the condescending attitude. I know you probably don't mean to be condescending but you are. And, you are not even THAT bad compared to some others I have discussed this with. At least you aren't frothing at the mouth yet and calling me names for being so ungrateful to you and your ilk. I admit that there indeed A FEW ubers like yourself who contribute to this board and others, and I thank you for that. But look around. How many others are there who contribute compared to those who raid?

EQ is a little like real life in some aspects. There are a lot of old people around who are full of wisdom and knowledge and have had real life experiences that we can all learn from. There are also some younger people who are sharp and have figured things out pretty early in life. Then, there are the old fools who have been around for decades and still can hardly tell their butt from a hole in the ground. i.e. my oldest brother. He's 58 years old, been married SIX FREAKING times and is now working on marriage #7. Holy crap!!!

I've been in EQ since the beginning. My first toon was level 50 months before the cap was raised to 60. My first guild raided Vox and Naggy and the planes whenever possible and when we couldn't do any of those we would go take over practically every camp in lower guk or naggys lair, or declare war on the city guards of some city, or camp jboots in Najena. We were the first guild, at least on my server, to learn that the rogue in Rivervale (Name escapes me atm) could pretty much wipe out an entire guild. We were one of the first to kill Trakanon, and were actually the first to actually see him and get our butts handed to us by him on our server. None of that matters even a single bit now. None of that makes me smarter or wiser or smell any better than anyone else who clicks "Yes" on the EULA screen.

[Veratu]

I personally have yet to meet a person in a high-end raiding guild that didn't know more about the game than I (and I'm no slouch if I do say so myself!).

BlackHeart, you have to understand that in order to become the "Ubers" that they are (God, I've grown to hate that word!), they had to come up through all or most of the content that everyone else does. In fact the posts that stated the minimum requirements most of these guilds have for people to join them demands that they do more than their fair share of day to day grinding we all do, and to do that they need to explore zones and find out what offers the best experience, gear, and return for their investment of play time.

When new content higher level content comes out it is usually these guilds and players that flood the new zones and explore the new content. I personally have no problem using TMO and the other "Raiding guilds" of Fennin ro as cannon fodder to map out my zones for me! ;) But if you read the earlier guides to these new zones and their quests, they are almost always written by people in these guilds. Given the expansion release table, most of these guilds have time not only to beat the content, but they farm the hell out of it to gear their players just like you will when upgrades make it possible for you to do so. So I maintain that these guilds not only know the content first.... they know it better.

The only difference I see between Jeb's "Ilk" as you put it and myself (a casual player) is that they strive harder to meet and beat new content as soon as possible. It shouldn't be difficult for someone who enjoys taking lazy Saturdays to poke around Old Sebilis to fathom that some other people might get more enjoyment out of tackling more challenging content that will require not only that they know their own class, but that they work well with a myriad of other classes to survive an encounter.

I know there are some things in game that I will never get a chance to own, even some zones that I may never see, but just as I expect SOE to provide content that is challenging for a player of my playing style, I wouldn't have them deny the more agressive players of content and rewards equal to that content. If you want a 200+ hp drop, or a 40% focus drop, you have to raid for it atm. I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I'm glad these items don't "grow on trees."

I don't think Jeb was being condescending in his posts, rather he was answering your charge that Raiding guild members don't contribute useful information or know as much about day to day play. You basically insinuated that they lacked any meaningful knowledge for "Real players" because they live in a fantasy raiding world that many of us never get to.

Forgive me for saying so, but it seems as though you have a chip on your shoulder or an axe to grind. As for me, I'll take a good look at any of the little gems these guys and gals are willing to share.

Veratu.

[Dranul]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 26 2005, 03:07 PM
It's not rocket science. Read your last last post and note the condescending attitude. I know you probably don't mean to be condescending but you are.
You know, I can almost hear you spit the word "uber" when you say it in your posts. I don't like posting on the Inferno; hell, I don't like posting on the boards because I usually don't have much information to give that others can't give in better detail. But this uber vs casual argument pisses me off to no end.

I'm sorry, but leveling to 70, getting 800 AAs, and working your ass off for flags and keys gives you at least some understanding of how the game works and how to play your class. I'm not saying that it gives you a better understanding than the person who goes to old world zones and explores, but it's simply not possible to go through raid content without learning a trick or two. Your ass gets dumped by the guild if you don't learn a few tricks.

And this bull shit argument that all that seperates an "uber" from a "casual" is the ability to sit in one spot for hours on end...most lower level PoP content is raidable in a two or three hours. It's intense, it feels like six hours if you've never done it before, but you can do it. What really seperates raiders from non-raiders is simple: the desire to raid.

And the whining and bitching that you can't buy 40% foci and 200 hp items in the Bazaar. Why the flying fuck do you think such items drop from raid content? Because they are needed to get from one raid mob to the next. You don't need 11k buffed hp if all you're doing is a few exp groups in WOS. I can aggro kite in WoS naked if I want and still beat the snot out of the mobs, though I'll have a lot more downtime. Try surviving the AEs in Fire, let alone in Anguish or Gates, with no gear and you'll understand why "ubers" get "blessed" with these items.

If they put 40% foci or 200 hp augs or whatever the hell else casual players want on DON vendors, even if it's for 1,000,000 crystals, what's the point of raiding? Why bother developing content for people that enjoy the feeling of seeing that bad ass mob hit 0%? If whatever reward I got for sweating and bleeding out those encounters is now atainable by soloing Creator missions, no matter how many times it takes, why am I bothering with the stress of a raid?

What it comes down to is "casual" players like yourself, Blackheart, seeing the fun links in /ooc in PoK, and wanting that but knowing you can't have it because of whatever reason. You feel something akin to penis envy, but that's not something you want to deal with or face, so you twist the coin around and say that it's the "ubers" that are arrogant and condescending and are the ones waving their penises around.

I don't think of myself as "casaul" or "uber". I'm nearly Time flagged (Hardly "uber" any more.), but I still use my Demi Lich Skullcap because it felt good soloing that. I try not to log on during the week days so I can study and hang out with friends, with the exception for one of the two raids my guild has each week and falls on a Wednesday.

This is probably the first time anyone on these boards have seen me post something negative, and it will be the last. I'll go back to my quiet corner and read the helpful posts from Jebasiz, Xelgadis, and Felicite. Oh, look, two of those names are those supposed "to good for casuals" ubers.

[Zeller TP]

Read your last last post and note the condescending attitude.Read the dripping hatred and prejudice in yours.

FYI, this was Blackheart's line back on necro.eqclasses too. Whenever the raider vs. casual argument came up, he was the one fanning the flames, telling all the "ubers" that they didn't know shit and that casual players like him, who bot 3 toons to do an LDoN, play the game the way it should be played. He wants EQ remade to fit his image of fun, with raids once a month if at all. Vox and Naggy are, to him, ideal raid content, probably because they are the last content he raided.

[Jebasiz]

That's odd, I can't remember buying even one single 200+hp piece of raid gear from bazaar. And Not one 40% or better focus item either.

Heh, and you think those should be droppable? Risk vs reward, it take ALOT of effort to raid to get those loots you're complaining about not having available to you. It's true that ALOT of raiders have the luxury of looking up strats on the website(I'm in a guild that doesn't have that luxury, since we get to it before people post strats) but even those that do..still have to execute those strats.

Read your last last post and note the condescending attitude.
My tone is no more condescending then your own.

Bull pookie. Completly False. You DEBUG raiding content. Content that YOU want to do. Content that most of us casuals will never see anyway. And DEBUGGING is not the reason that you play the raiding content, it's just a by-product. Just like the rest of us "Debug"

Heh, guess you missed the guides I've written. I sure as shit don't do that for myself..(if you're wondering) I do it for people who don't have the time to sit there and figure it out..or for people who might not think about soloing something that can easily be done, that or help people do what they're already doing more efficiently. Since I've always recieved positive feedback..maybe just maybe my experience and knowledge about the game is helping people. You have NO IDEA about how much feedback I submit, along with the rest of the raiding community..and it's not just raid content.

That's nice. But it's still RAID content. It still involves people who RAID.

P/U raids aren't necessarily for people who RAID. I'd hardly call anything pre-RZTWL in PoP "raid" content anymore. Yes it takes a "raid" of people to do it, but once mobs harder and further in progression are killed with 10 PEOPLE, the "RAID" tag needs to go. Calling Grummus "raid content" is like calling Trakanon "raid content". I haven't solo'd grummus(although I have tanked him for a casual/family guild, of friends of mine..so they can have the flag) but trakanon, lost soul can come damn close to soloing..but hey he used to take 4 groups too!

It's not rocket science.

You obviously don't work for NASA bcs it eludes you.

Possible yes. Commonplace? Not at all. Four necros in my guild over level 65. I have the only one with over 4k hit points.


That's you and your guild..it's obvious you put more effort into crying on MB's then you do your character in game. I know, I know..you post from work, but you can't play EQ there.... It's still not my fault that SOE tagged all the raid loot no trade. The attuneable loot from epic raids isn't terrible, maybe you need to farm your ass off, and buy some.

As far as 2, 3hour sessions being the same as 1, 6 hour session try this:
I went 3 months waiting for my robe to drop in Potime..yes raiding 7 times a week, for 3 months..without a single upgrade, if you farmed 35hours a week for 3months you'd have a nice single piece of loot for the same amount of time/effort just as I did(you'd also garner a TON more exp).

you are not even THAT bad compared to some others I have discussed this with.

Thx! :rolleyes:


I admit that there indeed A FEW ubers like yourself who contribute to this board and others, and I thank you for that. But look around. How many others are there who contribute compared to those who raid?



God I hate the word "uber" and that classification. I don't mind being identified as a "raiding" community..but uber is an attitude that I don't think I have. I really don't think I have an attitude where I am better then anyone else. Well check that, child pornographer, sex offenders, people who beat women, thieves, rappers, gangsta's..I'm better then you, heh. As far as people who play the game, people who KNOW me, know I'm just as happy playing around with casual people(who play well, shitty players annoy me at any level) in BoT, Tactics, WoS..if someone asks me..I'm very likely to kite in NC with them. AT 6:30pm though..I'm off to kill the biggest things me and my guild can find, I enjoy that CONTENT..but spending time with good people, is enjoyable everywhere.

As far as why people who raid don't post alot... MOST of them cite that messageboard become bitchfests and they have no inclination to help people who the next day will just group them with the rest of "ubers" or "elitests" that don't do enough for the casual guy/girl.

I wonder why they feel that way..heh.

Another reason is: as you said, groupable content doesn't really require a whole lot of discussion for people in current raid gear. There's no reason to discuss strats for Tipt when your tanks are all in full time gear(the day that GoD launched) and have max aa's..a strat isn't needed, a steamroller is.

Yet_another_reason_0912: Guilds get "touchy" when you discuss current content on the internet. Sometimes there's a fine line that would piss some people off if you were to "tell to much". Sometimes reading strats doesn't necessarily make other people happy either, they like figuring things out for themselves.

Reguardless, there are alot of magelo's around here that are dripping in raid gear. Eqnecro used to be even moreso, what exactly do you want?

(A high end discussion in raid content and strategy simply isn't going to happen here, and I'm betting anywhere else..that happens on internal guild messageboards. If you want to read some..I can probably dig up some archives that are several years old that won't piss anyone off.)

You get guides, smart feedback from people who know what they're talking about..and the majority of it comes from people who play the game as you do. A raiding necro giving a non-raiding necro advice, is going to give you wrong advice. The growth path for a raiding and non-raiding toon vary greatly.

I'm the first to admit(and defer) that I don't know how to map aa's for a casual player..I don't really even know how I'd gear them. I know where'd I hunt, but I don't know if it'd be efficient for others to hunt there. I also know Felicite(and otheres here) will know all that. I don't know how to do the skull cap quest, and I don't remember where I hunted when I was level 25..although if I had to guess I'd say Lake of Ill Omen or Frontier Mountains..neither would be suggested today by people who have leveled a toon recently.

All you do with comments like
The only difference I see between Jeb's "Ilk" as you put it and myself (a casual player) is that they strive harder to meet and beat new content as soon as possible.

Is make people think really hard next time you ask a question..and then people probably decide not to answer it at all.

This thread is way to long, and if I keep posting here I'll log on to late and not be able to get my alt some tacvi gear.

[Rijak]

eq's a big game... you can still enjoy the old game if you choose to... i was in a guild for six months with my bard alt that had gear and leveling restrictions from L1-L52... we "raided" all sorts of stuff from dalnir to tofs to naggy... it was fun, 'cause it was a challenge... a raid's not a raid 'till you wipe at least once :P ... the same can be said for a group... and +40/40 gear is just as cool in the mid-40s as +200/200 in the 70s... especially if you work for it

it's part of the reason why i kept my necro at L62 and then L65 for a while and didn't go nuts getting oow upgrades i could have... it kept the stuff i was doing at the time with friends (luclin) fun... but if i had the time to do the higher-end game, you can bet i would have moved a lot faster, and rolled on the upgrades i could get

the fun is in the challenge, which is why i'm personally glad that nothing too good drops too easily, or there'd be no challenges left

[BlackHeart]

<snip>... playing more long 6 hour raid sessions does not grant any more knowledge or understanding of the game than playing 3 or more 2 hour non-raid sessions. Time is time.

I just find it funny that this one comment started such a flame war.

It is my opinion that a raider knows raiding. I just don't see how his strategies or advice could be any help to the casual player. That is all I have been trying to say, obviously not very well. You as much agreed with that
when you said ...


People who play in a group or solo setting will know the content that they encounter daily just as well, if not better then the person who is raiding every night for the most part..


.. and ..


A raiding necro giving a non-raiding necro advice, is going to give you wrong advice. The growth path for a raiding and non-raiding toon vary greatly.


But somehow people miscontrue and re-arrange the truth of what I said into, "BlackHeart hates raiders". I don't hate raiders. I just don't think they contribute much of anything to the average player's enjoyment of the game.

All I meant to say can be summed up in this simple RL example.

Who do you think would have an better advice about living in a small cramped 1 BR apartment with no AC in a bad neighborhood? Joe Blow who makes $7 an hour at MacDonalds and proably LIVES in an area like that or Donald Trump who might have been driven through such an area once or twice in his limo? Which of those two would have the type of Knowledge and experience that an average person would need?

Now, If you want advice on how or where to spend $1200 on dinner, then Trump is the man to see.

Jeb, none of my comments were meant to be at you personally, but at raiders in general. I merely said "You" in my comments because "You guys" sounds a little hickified. I realize you are an exception to the rule. I just don't think you realize how rare you actually are. So get your panties unbunched and try to carry on a normal conversation instead of trying to pwn me. And you were being condenscending. I was not. Beligerant, maybe. Arrogant, of course. But not condenscending.

Yet another example...

That's you and your guild..it's obvious you put more effort into crying on MB's then you do your character in game

If I were a betting man I would wager that I have a lot more playing time than 90% of the people who post here. And crying would be if I were asking for something for nothing. I haven't done that. Not even once. Yet, when we ask for equal reward for equal effort your raiding friends CRY, "FOUL!! NO Fair!"

You said that you played 35 hours a week for 3 months to get your Time robe. I am willing to do that. That's a total of almost 420 hours played. To get an uber item. But, you see, I could do that, I could play two 2-hour sessions on weekdays and Sundays, probably three or four 2-hour sessions on Saturdays for a total of about 30 hours a week. At that rate, I could put in the time in about three and a half to four months, realistically more like 5 months. But, because of the way EQ is structured, I would still be exactly 0.00% closer to getting that item. Meanwhile, a raider on a lucky streak could get 2 or 3 such items in that time period.


wouldn't be cool if I could buy not just a Muram's Anger Aug in DoN (the easy to get focus, ironically) but a current DoN Fire Damage focus one! Sure.. charge me 2000 pts.. make me do Creators for a month.. but give me a way to get it.

I second that motion. Best be careful tho Felicite, according to some of these peoples warped sense of fairplay you are asking for something for nothing!

I will say it one more time, and I will try to type really really slow so some of you can understand it: Ready? Here it is: The only difference between you raiders and us casuals is the amount of time we can spend in the game IN ONE SITTING. If you spend 10x the time playing then grats to you and you deserve 10x the loot. But you don't.

****

Veratu, Zellar TP, and Dranul, I don't quite know how to respond to the drivel you posted except to say that I think you guys should seriously consider a career in politics. With your obvious talents in re-arranging the truth to suit yourselves and your impressive talents at inventing facts and spouting them as gospel, you should really go far in that field. Seriously, I would probably vote for you.

[Jebasiz]

If I were a betting man I would wager that I have a lot more playing time than 90% of the people who post here. And crying would be if I were asking for something for nothing. I haven't done that. Not even once. Yet, when we ask for equal reward for equal effort your raiding friends CRY, "FOUL!! NO Fair!"


Heh..you asked for 200hp/mana items to be in bazaar..or something to that effect.

The reason why SOE won't do that is..here it is, and this time I'll type real slow:

The content you experience is not balanced for that level of gearing. You would quit eq in 3 months if you were raid geared and not raiding, simply because the game would be to easy. That's the reason why.

If I get hit on a raid, it's for 1200-2500(by trash)..around 5k by bosses. If you get hit by a named it's for 1100 in WoS. Your 5k hps offers you greater survivability then what the raiding necro is capable of acquiring.

Exping with raid gear is boring. It's boring as hell..it fucking sucks. It's also a necessary evil to raid well, so I do it and don't bitch. There's noway in hell that I'd exp if I couldn't raid consistently 5-6 times a week. I'd go play wow an hour or 2 a day and be done with gaming. In order to not trivialize your gaming experience, the gear available to people who don't raid is ALWAYS going to be a year or two(or slightly more) behind what raid mobs offer.

Asking for the same reward for killing the same EXP mobs over and over as people get for killing indepth raid encounters, that takes the coordinated effort of 54 of the best geared people in the game is a joke. YOU DON'T DESERVE IT. (since you say it's implied, now it's stated) You don't have the coordination(or haven't bothered to take the time and effort to coordinate raids), you don't have to fail killing exp mobs for WEEKS to see it downed once, you don't have to wait 5 days for it to respawn, you don't have to develope a strat..You have to cast darkness, sic a pet and not get hit.

The guy shoveling shit isn't paid the same as the guy building a house..big shock.

THIS is not rocket science, and thank god for that..cuz I'm sure I'd be fucked if it were.

[Zeller TP]

Veratu, Zellar TP, and Dranul, I don't quite know how to respond to the drivel you postedExactly what part of what I posted is untrue? On the old board: Did you not join in every casual vs. raider thread and express hatred for "ubers"?
Did you not say that you liked to 3-box LDoNs? (A practice I could care less about, except that you seem to think this activity is a better representation of how the game should be played than any raid)
Did you not say that raids should be a once-per-month affair?
Did you not claim that Vox and Naggy, in the original game, were examples of good raid content (because raids on them were infrequent)?
The only difference between then and now is that you sense an audience that is not quite so willing to slurp up your "uber"-hating BS.

[Dranul]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 26 2005, 09:04 PM
Veratu, Zellar TP, and Dranul, I don't quite know how to respond to the drivel you posted except to say that I think you guys should seriously consider a career in politics. With your obvious talents in re-arranging the truth to suit yourselves and your impressive talents at inventing facts and spouting them as gospel, you should really go far in that field. Seriously, I would probably vote for you.
You're right, I should go into politics. There's a lot of bigoted chickenshits like yourself that need someone to call bullshit on their bad ideas and concepts.

[Veratu]

BlackHeart,

Please show me where I "re-arranged" you're thoughts or Ideas in your 07-25 post on this subject "feel free to quote any part of my 07-26 response".

1) You said Jebs post was condecending... even if he didn't mean for it to be. (note you later tried to dodge the guilt of this proclamation by saying when using the word "You" you were refering to "raiders in general" reread the post.. this was clearly not the case) You did refer to Raiders as Jeb's "Ilk" though which seems pretty inflamitory to me.

2) you also implied in response to Jeb saying that it was Raiders who filled the bazaar with all those nice Attunable items by saying You don't remember ever seeing 200hp items or 40% focus items in the bazaar. Then you tried to imply (again in a later post that some of us were some how at odds with Felicite, who proposed a method of trying make a task available for non raiders to "work their ass off in non raid environments to achieve said rewards.

3) And you're assessment of Raiders versus casual players is skewed at best! Jeb once posted what his schedule was like in response to someone who implied that he too could be uber if he "didn't have a life". I know people who spend a lot more time on eq than he did (maybe not counting his crazy robe camping experience :blink: ) but they are no were near at the level of game he's at. These people use their play time to socialize.... sometimes I think when they say socialize they mean /cyber, do quests, solo, rp (not so much these days :( ) ... and some just aren't as motivated or have as much direction as the raiders of whom you speak.

4) you're analogy was clever, but rather than trump vs a McDonald's employee I would say consider a Nascar driver VS a daily commuter... sure you'd ask the commuter which roads to take to avoid traffic, when rush hour is, and what spots are good to stop and eat at, but if you want driving instruction on driving techniques like breaking, cornering, and recovering control of your vehicle, I'll take Dale JR thank you! Teh answer here is both have lots to contribute from different perspectives and both HAVE been valuable contributors to this board!

Looking back at your posts sir, I'd say if anyone has the propensity for twisting or "re-arranging someones words it you.... but don't bother running for office you'll find no support here!

Veratu

[Unclean]

The content you experience is not balanced for that level of gearing. You would quit eq in 3 months if you were raid geared and not raiding, simply because the game would be to easy. That's the reason why.

I was going to side with the return-on-time-investment argument, but Jeb makes a good point. I guess I would retire under those circumstances, and I know many people who fit that pattern. Soloing trakanon probably would get boring quick. If I could solo trak with bazaar gear, now that would be a challenge.

Guess that's why I'm still playing when most of my friends are retired. I play content that's challenging for my play style, limited play time and goals in the game. I don't need 10k hps unbuffed to crawl through plane of hate and have a good time.

I just find it funny that this one comment started such a flame war.

Not surprising at all, really. People try to defend their play style when there's nothing to defend. If you have fun, then your play style is the correct one. And if your ROI isn't satisfactory for the time you spend, then there's no reason to even play.

Luckily Sony has thrown casual players like me a few bones with DoN, instanced zones, new missions, etc. Otherwise I'd just be playing Visual Studio instead of EQ ;)

[Dranul]

Amen, Unclean, amen. It's a game that we all play to have fun. The only reason why I got so worked up is that I'm so sick of hearing how raiders are so arrogant and are such assholes and don't have any real skill. I'm not a casual or a raider. I'm a player that has fun with a few raids here and there.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 26 2005, 04:55 PM
THIS is not rocket science, and thank god for that..cuz I'm sure I'd be fucked if it were.
rocket science (http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~broholm/l16/node5.html)

[BlackHeart]

The content you experience is not balanced for that level of gearing. You would quit eq in 3 months if you were raid geared and not raiding, simply because the game would be to easy. That's the reason why.

Probably true, But that's not the point. The point is that the gear is TOTALY unavailable. Lets be honest, 98% of casuals would NEVER do the work to get any of that raid gear even if it was available. If it takes 400+ hours to get one piece, even if they could do the work in 30 minute chunks it would just never happen for most people.

If I get hit on a raid, it's for 1200-2500(by trash)..around 5k by bosses. If you get hit by a named it's for 1100 in WoS. Your 5k hps offers you greater survivability then what the raiding necro is capable of acquiring.

Alas!! A small tidbit of actual useful information! And I 100% agree with you that you do indeed need all that stuff to deal with raid targets! There is also a small hole in that line of thinking. On a raid you will likely have 50 or so other people for the mob to choose to hit, in a group there are only 6.

But then you trashed that whole thread of reasoning and tainted it with the following...


Exping with raid gear is boring. It's boring as hell

So its a curse now?* Oh Damn the EQ gods for cursing me with uber equipment!* Let's be totaly honest.* If it was really THAT boring to XP in raid gear then why not just take it off?

It has been previously suggested by me and a few others that there is a very simple solution to this problem.* A solution that would solve both YOUR problem of being bored "Exping with raid gear" and all of us evil jealous casuals not getting a chance at all the uber equipment that only you deserve.* It is this:* RAid-Only tagged gear.* Gear that will have that +250 hit points and +5 mana regin and +50 to all stats when the toon is in a raid zone and in a raid.* It could even be on a timer if need be.* But when not raiding it converts back to its non-superman form of only +125 hit points and +2 mana regin and +10 to all stats or thereabouts.* Still uber, but on a scale that the rest of us have to deal with. I'm not saying that this is the best solution, but it is an idea.

Everytime this was suggested the idea on other forums was ridiculed and mocked with comments like, "We earned out raid gear we deserve to have +250hp stuff"

I'm curious how You yourself would respond to that particular solution.* Please don't wimp out with some lame excuse like, "It would be too hard for SOE to code"* Blah.* Look what they have done with level restrict items.* The same COULD be done with raid gear.*


**********

Veratu,

Nice try but you just did it again in your first paragraph.* Try reading what I post, then commenting on what I actually say, Not on what you think is the secret hidden message.* Or what you believe I am thinking.* There is no secret hidden message, and you are not phychic.* I'm not that devious, or that deep.

***********

Zellar TP,

In answers to your questions...

1- No, of course not.* Who possibly could?* Who has that kind of time?*
2- Yes. And that is wrong exactly how?* Are you jealous that I CAN do it and you cant?* I'm not the only one who does.* I can even do Hard LDoNs now and DoN missions.* Does that make you even more jealous?* I have about 8 or 9 guildmates ready and willing to tag along with me on these LDoNs and Don Missions and can have a full group now anytime I want with my 3-box team and NOBODY CARES, even tho I am an EVIL 3-boxer because they know it will be a win, how does that stick in your craw?* And what does ANY of that have to do with subject at hand? which is: the generation gap of raid gear vs casual gear
3- No.* I said that once-per month raids were THE ORGINAL DESIGN of the game.* Raiding become so popular, or early raiders whined so much for "MORE CONTENT!"* that SOE or Sony changed it.* Just look up reviews from 1998 and 1999 when they were hyping the game before it opened.* Raids were not supposed to be the focus of the game.* They were supposed to be special events.* They were supposed to be like Christmas.* I guess they still are.* It's just Christmas everyday for some folks.
4- I said that Vox and Naggy were examples of the original game raid design and idea.* The "Vision" has changed since then.* In my opinion it has changed for the worse.* I don't think raids are a bad thing.* They are great.* I just think the powers that be mussed it up somewhere along the line.* It is the only real grossly unbalanced thing left in the game.* Except maybe the ugliness of halfling druids vs all other races and classes.


***********

Dranul,

The only reason why I got so worked up is that I'm so sick of hearing how raiders are so arrogant and are such assholes and don't have any real skill

You see this is a perfect example of over-reaction. Nobody said anything of the sort. I did say (and so did Jeb btw are you mad at him too?) , more or less something like this: that if you want raid strategies a raider is the person to ask. If you want info on the best way to solo Trakanon in bazaar gear, then a raider is NOT the person to ask, but a casual who might have actually TRIED to solo Trakanon in bazaar gear would be a better choice.

Raiders are not neccessarily any smarter or wiser than casuals. This is the statement that really pissed people off somehow. Including you I guess.

And arrogant? I freely admit I am more arrogant than most people I know. I even say so in an earlier post. But, see I don't care if people think I'm arrogant. But, I also don't care if they think I'm pretty or smell nice.

***********

And still, NOT ONE OF YOU has an answer for my only real complaint. The only difference in the gear raiders can have and the gear that casuals can have is the time spent in game IN ONE SITTING. You go off on tangents about how I must hate raiders and how stupid I am but not ONE has dealt with coming up with any kind of solution. You CRY "FOUL!!" and "NO FAIR!" but I have seen no acceptable, or ANY, answer to this. You won't answer the question, or try to solve the problem you just deny that there is a problem.

Most of the problem is not so much with raiders, but with the game design and the hoops they (soe, Sony, whomever) jumped thru to give raiders something to do. The "vision" changed somewhere before PoP era because someone in charge listened to the whines of "More raid content! More raid content!" and created this raiders/casuals generation gap. They reacted to what they thought was a problem before thinking about it. They've been trying to patch the holes with bubble gum and duct tape ever since and it just isn't working. What is the solution?

[Saetanis]

I like chicken.

- Saetanis

[Felicite]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 27 2005, 10:00 AM
And still, NOT ONE OF YOU has an answer for my only real complaint. The only difference in the gear raiders can have and the gear that casuals can have is the time spent in game IN ONE SITTING.
I play EQ 4-6 hours in a sitting.. sadly almost daily. The only guilds raiding seriously on my server raid at 4pm or 5:30pm Pacific Time. I have a job. Ergo, I don't raid.

I know.. I should start a raiding guild. :rolleyes:

It aint just the time. It's your time and buncha other people's time all at once.

I always win too! http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/emot-highfive.gif

[Zeller TP]

1- No, of course not. Who possibly could? Who has that kind of time?
Sadly, this can't be proved. But I very seriously doubt that you ever missed the opportunity to contribute to an "uber"-hating thread. I certainly read plenty where you did. And supporting evidence for that is here, where you've taken up the drumbeat once again.

You've changed your tune a bit, probably from being owned so badly by the raiders back on the old board. Or maybe because you don't have the "uber"-hating support here that you used to have there.

Your spiel used to be: "ubers" ruined the game because they made the devs screw over casuals like me. Fuck all "ubers". I hate "ubers". Now it's just "I want 'uber' loot too" (although there's still a little bit of "fuck you ubers who don't think I deserve it"). And you're calling me jealous?

Along that line, as I said, I could care less about your 3-box activities. But I do find it hugely ironic that you have a vision of how the game should be played that includes very infrequent raids (evidenced again by your own words here:

Raiding become so popular, or early raiders whined so much for "MORE CONTENT!" that SOE or Sony changed it. Just look up reviews from 1998 and 1999 when they were hyping the game before it opened. Raids were not supposed to be the focus of the game. They were supposed to be special events. They were supposed to be like Christmas. I guess they still are. It's just Christmas everyday for some folks.

The "Vision" has changed since then. In my opinion it has changed for the worse. I don't think raids are a bad thing. They are great. I just think the powers that be mussed it up somewhere along the line. It is the only real grossly unbalanced thing left in the game

) and yet you obviously think that someone playing EQ on 3 computers at once is more in-line with how the game should be played (because that is how you play).

[BlackHeart]

It aint just the time. It's your time and buncha other people's time all at once

True. I guess I could start a "We raid at 6am Saturday mornings only guild"

Zellar TP,

Sadly, this can't be proved.

Yes, it is kinda hard to prove fiction and fairytales.

You're like one of those zealot religion haters that pulls little tidbit verses out of the Bible like, "Jesus wept" and goes screaming on the rooftops, "Jesus was a crybaby! I have written proof!"

You have once again proved that an active imagination and selective memory can be used to make any point you want to make so long as you are willing to distort facts and invent history. I could care less who tried to own me on the old boards, because I could care less about those boards anymore. Porn, and discussions of who sucks the most is not what I look for in a message board about EQ. Nor do I care if they think that they accomplished the job because all I ever got as answer to this problem there was the same type of thing I'm getting here from the likes of you.

No answers to the problems or solutions just excuses and denial that there is a problem and personal attacks and personal insults because I dared to point out that there might be one. So, until you can be civil and discuss the topic like an adult instead of a little temper-tantrum throwing child, I will for a very brief moment pull myself down to your level and try not to drag my knuckles on the ground and tell you to please feel free to kiss my entire ass.


Along that line, as I said, I could care less about your 3-box activities

hmmmm.. Then why do you keep bringing it up? Over and over and over and over ... and over


and yet you obviously think that someone playing EQ on 3 computers at once is more in-line with how the game should be played (because that is how you play).

See? There it is again. Twice in the same post. Still can't figure out if it doesn't matter why you keep bringing it up. And while you're at it explain why you feel it is so evil and wrong to do. I'm sure THAT explanation will be at the very least somewhat entertaining.

[Zeller TP]

I've invented no history here. On the old boards you've done everything I said you have. You've even reiterated it here. YOU, and YOU alone turned this thread from Jesters to Uber vs. Casual with this little gem
I don't care if you raid x10 times a week and have all the latest and greatest equipment with the latest and greatest augs in every slot, it does not in ANY WAY prove that you have more knowledge than anyone else who plays the game. The only thing it means is that you have larger chunks of free time which luckily for you coincides with a large group of other peoples free time so that all of you can go do "UBER" things together. How uber would you be if you could only play from 2am to 9am? Not many raid opportunities in that timeslot unless you can speak Japenese or German or some other foreign language., clearly exposing your obsession, your bias, and your hatred of people who've beaten things you'll never see, using strategies that are far beyond your awesome 3-boxing skills. And yet you want their loot - for what? In return for 3-boxing a hard LDoN that they could probably solo?

The more you blather on, the more disgusted I am with you. And I'll admit, it now makes me happy to watch you seethe in rage over the loot you'll never get. Keep it up SoE, because I want to see him whine some more.

[Veratu]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 26 2005, 03:07 PM

That's odd, I can't remember buying even one single 200+hp piece of raid gear from bazaar. And Not one 40% or better focus item either. Not even once. I CAN remember doing a butt-load of LDoNs and recently some DoNs for my equipment though. Admittedly, I have SEEN a lot of slightly better gear than some of mine for sale in bazaar, but at astromnomical prices. But still not much gear that I can't match on my own, or at least come close doing DoNs or even LDoNs.



.


I don't know where you get your information on which you form your opinion of the raiding community

It's not rocket science. Read your last last post and note the condescending attitude. I know you probably don't mean to be condescending but you are. And, you are not even THAT bad compared to some others I have discussed this with. At least you aren't frothing at the mouth yet and calling me names for being so ungrateful to you and your ilk. I admit that there indeed A FEW ubers like yourself who contribute to this board and others, and I thank you for that. But look around. How many others are there who contribute compared to those who raid?





I agree BlackHeart, what you posted has not hidden meaning it's as plain as day. If I am translating the ideas you are trying to convey wrong, the problem lies in your communication skills and not in some diabolical plot orchestrated by "yours truly".

And actually the FIRST Paragraph of my post invited you to quote where I had twisted your words in my 7-26 response to your 7-25 post.

As amusing as it is to watch you back pedal and try to skate around the big hole you've dug it's really not worth spending anymore of my time defending my character from insults flung by an angry little man with a big axe to grind. Feel free to flame me all you want, I'm done with you.

Veratu out!

[Jebasiz]

Alright I've tried be to be civil...but you're just to fucking stupid for that to work.
So here we go, point/counter-point(loosely identifying that jealousy-ridden bullshit you e-shit on my screen as points).

QUOTE

The content you experience is not balanced for that level of gearing. You would quit eq in 3 months if you were raid geared and not raiding, simply because the game would be to easy. That's the reason why.



Probably true, But that's not the point. The point is that the gear is TOTALY unavailable. Lets be honest, 98% of casuals would NEVER do the work to get any of that raid gear even if it was available. If it takes 400+ hours to get one piece, even if they could do the work in 30 minute chunks it would just never happen for most people.


It's going to be totally unavailable..and I said why earlier Not only would it making the game boring as hell for people not raiding, it'd eliminate the need to raid to progress through content in the game. SOE doesn't want people Doing 1000DoN's and have their first raid ever vs OMM(it'd be one fast freaking raid too)...progression would simple be to fast(upto the first mob that isn't pure melee), and not even their "crack(smoking) staff can churn out content fast enough to support that type of advancement.

Not to mention you wouldn't have the coordination, skill, experience, and knowledge of the raiding environment in EQ to do a fucking thing to challenge you. Nor would you have sufficient access to zone to challenge yourself. In the RARE case you did..you and your DON geared buddies (all 50 of them) would die/whipe on inc.




QUOTE

If I get hit on a raid, it's for 1200-2500(by trash)..around 5k by bosses. If you get hit by a named it's for 1100 in WoS. Your 5k hps offers you greater survivability then what the raiding necro is capable of acquiring.



Alas!! A small tidbit of actual useful information! And I 100% agree with you that you do indeed need all that stuff to deal with raid targets! There is also a small hole in that line of thinking. On a raid you will likely have 50 or so other people for the mob to choose to hit, in a group there are only 6.


YES! and unfortunetly for you, raids can't have weak links..they cause whipes. Back in the days of PoP with 72 person raids you could afford to loose a group or 2, with 54 people and ever broadening content, combined with ass kicking adds upon any death while engaged(in the entire zone). A death doesn't mean you simply loose a tank, dps or healing..it means you have an add that hits for 1400 with a clear agro list that just spawned and is about to rape your clerics(spawning more adds). On easy content it means the rampage tank died and you simply need another.

The result of this is...EVERYONE needs gear, and you can't control who has agro when all the time. I won't even mention the AE that do 4k dmg and 1k mana drain..and then dumb down to 1kdmg and 1k mana per tick(DOT).

So MR.Jealous..er Genius it would seem that a mob doesn't have 50 different people to hit, more often then not, they hit everyone at once.

Honestly the only thing your doing on this thread is showing everyone how ignorant to raiding environments you are, that and you're pissed off that your E-peen isn't quite as large as you'd like it to be.

Next regurgitatation!

QUOTE

Exping with raid gear is boring. It's boring as hell



So its a curse now? Oh Damn the EQ gods for cursing me with uber equipment! Let's be totaly honest. If it was really THAT boring to XP in raid gear then why not just take it off?

It has been previously suggested by me and a few others that there is a very simple solution to this problem. A solution that would solve both YOUR problem of being bored "Exping with raid gear" and all of us evil jealous casuals not getting a chance at all the uber equipment that only you deserve. It is this: RAid-Only tagged gear. Gear that will have that +250 hit points and +5 mana regin and +50 to all stats when the toon is in a raid zone and in a raid. It could even be on a timer if need be. But when not raiding it converts back to its non-superman form of only +125 hit points and +2 mana regin and +10 to all stats or thereabouts. Still uber, but on a scale that the rest of us have to deal with. I'm not saying that this is the best solution, but it is an idea.

Everytime this was suggested the idea on other forums was ridiculed and mocked with comments like, "We earned out raid gear we deserve to have +250hp stuff"

I'm curious how You yourself would respond to that particular solution. Please don't wimp out with some lame excuse like, "It would be too hard for SOE to code" Blah. Look what they have done with level restrict items. The same COULD be done with raid gear.



Why not take it off? Because I spent 80% of my time on EQ raiding, and 20% exping. I don't have the time to "take it off" and get where I want to be. Heh, you don't get all your classes applicable aa as a member of a raid guild, when you make exping take 2-3x longer then it has to.

OK along with RAID ONLY gear, I want you IRL to have WORK only cloths, cars, money, and a house that is close enought to work to be convenient. On the weekends..your Jaguar turns into a Pinto. You're house a Studio appartment.

PLease just STFU. Raiders earn their loot, and deserve the advantages of it in a non-raid setting.

The only thing your proposal would do is..have groups of 7 (technically a raid) in rss and the nest exping...the gear would more then make up for the "raid exp penalty"

You're finally doing Hard LDON's...congratulations! I was trio'ing them pre-gates. DoN's I solo. Zeller can to. I doubt he's jealous of your 3 characters who combined are more limited then his one. I mean who wouldn't....

IN SUMMARY: You're a jealous fucking idiot. GO AWAY.

[Azrioth]

I've always been as shitty in terms of gear an content as it gets, I mean, I never got past Luclin content...

However, I agree with Jeb (and the others) - Black, you look (and may indeed be) unintelligent, jealous, and foolish. Every time you write more in "defense" or whatever you end up making your own self look worse.

It's not hard for others to "own" you when you do it to yourself.

Flamewar please! Not enough of those nowadays.

/stretches anime style and gets ready...

[Unclean]

Here's a whole new angle for you guys.

Using Jeb as an example, the street value of his necro is probably about $500-$700. I'm sure he's put 1000's of hours into it. Now let's say I make $50 an hour. That means I can buy an uber necro from playerauctions.com for about 10 hours worth of work and have the same gear as somebody who put 1,000+ hours into the game.

Now, let's say I really want that uber gear. Wouldn't it be more time efficient just to buy a toon that already has everything I want? I didn't buy the house that didn't have air conditioning, what's the difference? All the sudden now here I am, a casual player, with the best gear in the game, for a fraction of the investment.

With that line of reasoning, how could anybody be jealous of somebody's gear knowing that when you put a dollar value on the time spent for that gear, the person buying the account gets an astronomical return on investment compared to the person who sat in raids for months?

[Jebasiz]

With that line of reasoning, how could anybody be jealous of somebody's gear knowing that when you put a dollar value on the time spent for that gear, the person buying the account gets an astronomical return on investment compared to the person who sat in raids for months?

I enjoy raiding. It's really something I wouldn't put in monetary terms..but you can't buy a "sense of accomplishment" or fond memories.

Unfortunetly for some..you can't buy commonsense either(not you unclean)..which is where the breakdown in understanding simple game mechanics is coming into play here.

Wanting items/gear simply because it's in the game and wanting items that are on par with the content you experience consistently..isn't a hard concept for most people.

I'm sure he's put 1000's of hours into it.

451 days. Something like 10840 hours..give or take.

[BlackHeart]

LoL.. It's simply amazing how much drivel some of you can write when you put your mind to it.

Heaven forbid anyone dare to stand up and say something about the SANCTIFY of raiding and uber-loot. Gets everyone up in arms and ready to lynch people.

That is exactly what you all sound like. "Damn that BlackHeart. he done went and questioned our authority and he been sleepin with white women too! Somebody get a rope! We gonna hang us a casual"

Veratu, you still haven't learned to read without that magic crystal ball of yours.

Jeb, you really disapoint me. Really. Seriously. I expected better from you.

I've tried to open a discussion about something in the game that is broken and you all scream and whine like little fat girls that have gotten their candy taken away. Or worse, has been asked to share it! OH the horror!!!!

Reading all this crap has given me and head-ache and made me really pity some of your parents. But it has also made me decide to do one of two things...

I shall never again dare to even question the Sainthood of all those who raid. I shall henceforth prostrate myself before your noble presence and take anything you say as THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO RAIDERS because it is obvious you are All-knowing and can never be tainted by greed or guided by anything but truth and honor and justice. I have seen the light! I now realize that none of you actually raid for the loot but only for the wisdom and knowledge that you can obtain and pass down to us lowly vermin that are casual players. We should all be eternally grateful for the small beadcrumbs of EQ knowledge you pass to us for it's obvious that we could never hope to do much more than log on without your spiritual guidance. I should chop off my fingers for their sin of typing these words that have offended you. I will give away all of my armor and plat in the game because I probably don't deserve to have that either and will from this day forward only kill rats and skellys in the Euradite newbie area with nothing but a rusty dagger. I will delete all my spells from my spellbook and only use those free ones given to me by the necro guildmaster. I will speak only when spoken to, and will then only answer in brief one-word answers. I shall never again question the fact that computer-chair butt sores are the only true path of learning in EQ. I shall REPENT!!!!

or ...

I'll just roll my eyes and tell all of you to please get over yourselves.

[Dranul]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 28 2005, 04:22 AM
Jeb, you really disapoint me. Really. Seriously. I expected better from you.
How will Jeb sleep at night knowing that he has failed to gain you undying love and affection?

Oh, and I guess to answer your "one complaint" and, taking you at face value and believing you for a fraction of a second, I'll answer your questsion. Forgive me, oh please forgive me, for I am not worthy if I am wrong, but your question is "Isn't the only difference between casuals and raiders the amount of time they can sit at their computer in one sitting?"

No, it isn't. It's also the desire to raid and to win and the willingness to put forth that committment. I just got off of a six hour Rathe Council attempt. Our second try. We failed. But we'll do it again, and we'll keep doing it till we succeed. Why? Because we want to win. It's not about the phat lewtz. For some, it is, but not for the majority of raiders.

People raid because they like raiding. Getting loot is just the nice after-dinner mint, compared to seeing new content and working out strategies. It takes a slightly insane person to be able to enjoy encounters that make them pull out their hair. Like I said before, the encounters they raid are just as difficult as ToV was back in the day, due to the comparative numbers. Mobs that quad for 4k are tough even if you're 20k buffed. Think of it this way: It's not just a time investment, it's a stress investment. It's not stressful three-boxing LDoNs or soloing DoNs. It's stressful getting 50+ people to coordinate and work together for a single task. And failing until you finally get it right.

You, as a player that does not raid, will never see a 200 hp item until the raid content is dropping 500 hps items. Why? Jeb put forth a lot of good reasons. If you don't find that satisfying, then ask a dev. That's how the game works. Be happy with what you are willing to committ to and strive for. If you want these items so bad, juggle your schedule to be able to raid and get them.

And as for my overreaction. You're right, I said harsh thing, used language I usually refrain from. But a part of me really enjoyed calling you out and what you're actually saying, and that is, "Raiders are just no-life wankers that can spend more time on their ass than I can." You call yourself arrogant, as if that defuses the stigma that is arrogance. I'll tell you what I've told a lot of people, and that is that arrogance is nothing to be prideful about. Just because you freely admit to being an asshole, doesn't mean you don't stink when you talk.

You're telling us to get over our bad selves, when it's you that needs a reality check. You've called Jeb condescending, but not arrogant. You've called yourself arrogant, but not condescending.

You've even said, to Jeb, after calling him condescending, "But that's ok, you can't help it." That fatalistic approach proves that you should just stop arguing and accept Fate. You will never have raid quality loot, without raiding.

Oh, and saying, "But that's ok, you can't help it" is akin to saying, "Damn, dem niggers are dumb. But that's ok, they can't help it." Everything about that statement is inflammatory. You've used phrases like "Jeb and his ilk". I haven't heard the world "ilk" used unless it was describing demons and their allies in fantasy novels. Everything about your attitude screams that you hate raiders and have an incredibly poor opinion of them.

Don't think I love Jeb, either. I think he's a semi-decent guy, from the little I've seen of his personality. But I respect his opinions and the information he gives out, because he seen more, done more, and been around longer than me. I don't know him from Tom, Dick, or Harry, but I know he's the person to go to for a small niche of information; a niche I'm very interested in and several other people on these boards are interested in.

And that brings me to my last point. You see these toons onlines, a small portion of their behavior and mind, and extropolate. You have to remember that you aren't alone on the internet, my friend, and you also have to remember that you might strike a nerve. It was your "You can't help it" comment that struck my nerve, made me post on a rant forum for the first time in my entire internet career. It's that same self-righteous attitude I see in people that are so low and bigoted and set in their ways that they hardly deserve human contact.

But that's ok. You can't help it, right? Or maybe you can, but you just enjoy pushing people's buttons too much.

In summary, because I doubt you'll read the entire post:
You're wrong about raiders. It's not just a factor of time.
Arrogance isn't a blessing, and admitting arrogance doesn't get off the hook for being so.
Nothing you have said has been a civil complaint with no ulterior motive. You're looking for a fight and you want to play the innocent casual role.


Finally, be of some use to this community or leave. Making bad suggestions on how to nerf raiding is not a contribution. It's like saying, "Those are some nice shoes, but you can only wear them if you shot yourself in the foot. I think that makes it fair to me, because I can't work for as many hours as you can."

[Jebasiz]

I've tried to open a discussion about something in the game that is broken

It's broken in YOUR MIND. It's merely balanced in the view of rational people.

Damn that BlackHeart. he done went and questioned our authority and he been sleepin with white women too!

Heh, sleeping with or lying in a bed next to? Don't forget blackheart..your penis is broke because you can't get raid lewts! That's what your posts lead me to believe anyway.

Jeb, you really disapoint me. Really. Seriously. I expected better from you.

Thanks chump. We all have our patience theshold, you're beyond mine. I'm also not here for you...

Reading all this crap has given me and head-ache and made me really pity some of your parents

Fuck off

I shall never again dare to even question the Sainthood of all those who raid.

Because you don't get anywhere. Here and eqnecro, you are seen for what you are. You're views on the game will never be supported by anyone that can see five feet in front of their face. You just don't get..it's sad really, and this argument is tired so I'll be brief(and the fact that I've said it before).

NO matter how many exp mobs you kill you will never encounter the challenge and /or difficulty you'll find at a raid. Get some raid experience, get your ass out of DON/Ldon and see for yourself. I feel bad for you..you're in an argument and have NO IDEA what your talking about, and you're arguing with people who see both sides of what you're arguing about. That said..an intelligent person would not argue this point. Especially when he's been berrated before for much the same stance on the same argument.

You won't dare to question the sainthood...heh. It's not a sainthood, a fraternity, or even a club. It's a GUILD! A GUILD that raids. That organizational-type is repeated across all servers in EQ. On most servers several Guilds follow the same prototype of what it takes to become a successfull raid guild.

It's not just having 54 people to raid each night. It's recruiting, gearing, teaching and maintaining that same level of raiding efficiency for an extended period of time(years). People quit, retire, join other guilds, take breaks..come back, playtimes/participation percentages change. It's exhausting to recruit to maintain the required people to raid every night. Just this..this alone, never mind the time and effort of raiding itself, is grounds for "something extra" to be given to those people.

Factor in learning new encounters, time raiding without a single mob dying...it takes effort and dedication the casual player will never have to extend themselves to accomodate and defeat new content. You can't progress efficiently without a solid core of a guild, some roles on raids make certain people a requirement, not just the class, but specific people who do that job, and learn it through practice, for one single encouner..or even part of an encounter.

Raiding and grouping are two different games in eq. It's a different set of rules, and a different set of actions/reactions, and those are things you can't understand until you experience them.

[Brahman]

So its a curse now? Oh Damn the EQ gods for cursing me with uber equipment! Let's be totaly honest. If it was really THAT boring to XP in raid gear then why not just take it off?

Actually... sometimes we raid without gear on cause some of the lower raids (time) are so easy these days. so...

[Azrioth]

Holy fuck, how many times do you have to get slammed before you stfu, Blackheart?

At least Tauruse shuts up eventually...

You lost days ago.

[Jebasiz]

Damn Dranul doesn't like me..that sucks. :(

[Brahman]

Originally posted by Azrioth@Jul 28 2005, 04:16 AM
Holy fuck, how many times do you have to get slammed before you stfu, Blackheart?

At least Tauruse shuts up eventually...

You lost days ago.
you mean bushie, the turd blossum?

[Jebasiz]

Wonderfull company there...

[Azrioth]

Were you insulting me Jeb you n00b?

:o

[Azrioth]

:P Dranul who? Talk about not knowing who someone is...

But from his stance he's cool! Arrrr...

you mean bushie, the turd blossum?

Yeah. While he's been better of late he ranks top 10 stupidest people I've ever interected with, easy. (Sadly, that list is HUGE and for him to rank top ten is sad. He's maybe 7th or 9th.)

Fuck, it never ceases to amaze me how goddamnably stupid people are. I mean, seriously, what the fuck?

inc off topic rant - My mom is into "Sylvia Brown" - for those that did not know (like myself) she is apparently a "world reknowned psychic"... Frequently appearing on "Montel" who I guess is a black/brown guy with MS (for n00bs, multiple sclerosis - bad disease that will slowly but surely degenerate your brainses) who has a talk show (or something). It looks like he's almost as bad as Jenny Jones (may her show burn forever in TV hell, the mucilaginous piece of shit that it was...) - both shows have "teens with problems" type things, as I recall.

Ok, off topic #2 rant. WTF is up with those things? I'm always left wondering "where is daddy" because you have some asshat kid and his flustered fat southern mother who apparently can't control him or her. Stupid kids need to get owned... few things rile me more than seeing some 12 year old small child with an attitude. I mean, that practically begs "pwn me plz!"...

AGGGHh but before I go crazy here, Sylvia Brown.

What is this shit? I overheard her explain how, apparently, what's going on with the Bermuda Triangle is people are getting teleported to the Andromeda Galaxy. No shit, huh?

What pisses me off even more than the fact that these people exist, even more that people think they're for real, even more that enough people think they're for real that they make a living off this crap, is the fact that my own family appears to give this stuff credence. I know by now that this shouldn't bother me - my family being dumb, but being surrounded by this stuff pisses me off to an extent.

"Dad, what do you think?" I ask, hoping for a shake of the head and a smirk. But no, I am once again reminded that my father is wierd and whatnot - "I think Sylvia has a gift"

... Thanks dad. :blink:

And my little sisters are like, "you mean that's not real?"

AGhhhh...

[BlackHeart]

Ahhh.. A nugget !!

No, it isn't. It's also the desire to raid and to win and the willingness to put forth that committment

Good, intelligent thought out resposnse! Thank you! Just for this one piece of useful information I will ignore the rest of your personal insults and attacks.

But...(there is always a but) what about those who have the desire to raid and to win and the willingness to put forth that committment to try over and over and over? But just not the time, or not the time with likeminded friends? Those are still left out. I'm not saying that I do, but what about people liek Felicite? Do you question her commitment? There is a guy in my guild who has been camping the halfling mask for 5 months. Every night he logs on for an hour or maybe two, and kills a few mobs hoping for his mask only to be disapointed once again. Is he not committed? Honestly how can you question the commitment of ANY player who has has 70 level characters with hundreds of AAs? A lot of them may not have the commitment to raid, but how can any of us possibly know that for sure when because of time and friends constraints it is impossible for them?

And btw, You all need to calm down and scroll back to see who started this flame war. The first attack was not mine. I told you all when I came to these boards that I will not hestitate to jump on anyone who jumps me first.

Sorry, but if this ...

But playing more long 6 hour raid sessions does not grant any more knowledge or understanding of the game than playing 3 or more 2 hour non-raid sessions. Time is time.

...is a personal attack then you're very thin-skinned and just looking for a fight.

You can keep slinging insults and personal attacks and get it back in your face or you can dicuss the issue rationally.... your choice.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Felicite+Jul 27 2005, 12:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Felicite @ Jul 27 2005, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-BlackHeart@Jul 27 2005, 10:00 AM
And still, NOT ONE OF YOU has an answer for my only real complaint. The only difference in the gear raiders can have and the gear that casuals can have is the time spent in game IN ONE SITTING.
I play EQ 4-6 hours in a sitting.. sadly almost daily. The only guilds raiding seriously on my server raid at 4pm or 5:30pm Pacific Time. I have a job. Ergo, I don't raid.

I know.. I should start a raiding guild. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
/agree

it's not so much about how much you play as it is about when you play... i'd join a raiding guild myself, but i can't log reliably 'till 9-9:30 pm EST (ALL raiding guilds start around 6:30-7:30, maybe 8:30 on rare occasion)... and i refuse to play during the daytime on weekends (which all raiding guilds also do)

i do have various multi-guild organinzations i raid or raid lead with... people in similar time-slot situtations... but getting further than luclin or low-level PoP is tough with an ever-changing cast of participants (though i'm working on it)

[Brahman]

start a guild. non-manditory raiding guilds are becoming more and more popular and actually starting to do well these days. (friends of mine started one and they are now in txevu, TT to txevu in like 7 months time isn't bad for a non-manditory guild. more so if you consider that they have 5+ guilds "above" them leeching members)

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Brahman@Jul 28 2005, 12:24 PM
start a guild. non-manditory raiding guilds are becoming more and more popular and actually starting to do well these days. (friends of mine started one and they are now in txevu, TT to txevu in like 7 months time isn't bad for a non-manditory guild. more so if you consider that they have 5+ guilds "above" them leeching members)
i've considered that... the problem is people get attached to their tags... even if their family guild has 5-8 at most that log on regularly a night, they don't wanna give it up... i'd love making a new guild, but it'd cause all sorts of waves that would probably defeat the entire idea... too many egos

my initial solution was an association of guilds... basically open raids, but only drawing from guilds i knew had decent members and leadership... we did tier one PoP okay, but it was tough to keep interest up... especially when new faces would show up and win loot rolls (i always did /random 1000)

more recently, we've started a few new groupings with an attendence related loot system to give some incentive to attend regularly... so far it's going well... 40 or so players L60-L70... we'll see

[Warspite]

Then again, Az... you think you're a pirate. :P

Maybe you're a Psychic Pirate!

[Brahman]

you could always make the guild, and welcome other people to tag along.

people get comfy like that, and will end up leaving their guild.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Brahman@Jul 28 2005, 01:57 PM
you could always make the guild, and welcome other people to tag along.

people get comfy like that, and will end up leaving their guild.
Plan C http://home.comcast.net/~rijak/bandit.gif

[Brahman]

only offering up what i have seen work in the past on karana...

and karana had a HUGE portion of the population locked in failed family guilds.

[Zeller TP]

Originally posted by BlackHeart+Jul 28 2005, 05:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlackHeart @ Jul 28 2005, 05:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sorry, but if this ...
But playing more long 6 hour raid sessions does not grant any more knowledge or understanding of the game than playing 3 or more 2 hour non-raid sessions. Time is time.
...is a personal attack then you're very thin-skinned and just looking for a fight.[/b]
You fucking selective-clipping moronic toilet-guzzling piece of excrement. I already pointed out the start of this flame war, but here it is again. Notice the post date. Notice the term "UBER" used in a - How shall I say it? What was your term? Oh, yes - condescending tone. IMO, this is clearly bait. And you got what you asked for.
Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 22 2005, 01:25 PM
The only thing it means is that you have larger chunks of free time which luckily for you coincides with a large group of other peoples free time so that all of you can go do "UBER" things together. How uber would you be if you could only play from 2am to 9am?
Your repeated claims that the "thin-skinned" raiders jumped on the following innocuous comment, posted over an hour later, are not going to fly.
<!--QuoteBegin-BlackHeart@Jul 22 2005, 02:51 PM
But playing more long 6 hour raid sessions does not grant any more knowledge or understanding of the game than playing 3 or more 2 hour non-raid sessions.[/quote]

[Dranul]

Blackheart, who's your choreographer? You do an amazing job of dancing around the issues that we've all brought up.

Edit - Forgot to mention. Jeb, you're a good guy. Like I said, I really don't know ya, can't say much about ya, but you've been a great help to this community, and you were one of the first lizards I looked up to when I decided I wanted to raid.

[Jebasiz]

No Azrioth it was not you..you're good company imo.

But...(there is always a but) what about those who have the desire to raid and to win and the willingness to put forth that committment to try over and over and over? But just not the time, or not the time with likeminded friends? Those are still left out. I'm not saying that I do, but what about people liek Felicite?

Felicite is amazing. She's very knowledgable, very skilled, and yes very dedicated.
She's also a great in-game friend of mine.

Felicite's problem isn't how long she plays or her dedication or who skillfully she plays..it's when, and on what server. That's all.

Honestly how can you question the commitment of ANY player who has has 70 level characters with hundreds of AAs?

Exping, while tedious..doesn't really take much dedication or commitment...especially nowadays. Exp simply comes to fast. I can easily say that I've spent 10x more time raiding then I have exping...if not more.

i've considered that... the problem is people get attached to their tags... even if their family guild has 5-8 at most that log on regularly a night, they don't wanna give it up... i'd love making a new guild, but it'd cause all sorts of waves that would probably defeat the entire idea... too many egos

my initial solution was an association of guilds... basically open raids, but only drawing from guilds i knew had decent members and leadership... we did tier one PoP okay, but it was tough to keep interest up... especially when new faces would show up and win loot rolls (i always did /random 1000)

more recently, we've started a few new groupings with an attendence related loot system to give some incentive to attend regularly... so far it's going well... 40 or so players L60-L70... we'll see

Incorporate some epic 1.5 raids and people will probably remain interested longer.
Heh, the other suggestions are good too.

[BlackHeart]

Exping, while tedious..doesn't really take much dedication or commitment...especially nowadays. Exp simply comes to fast. I can easily say that I've spent 10x more time raiding then I have exping...if not more.


I see your point. But dunno if I agree 100%. With the new levels to 70 which a lot of casuals have not done. My guild has about 50 or so level 66 and 67, and not many at all past that. A lot of the places casuals go to XP, either by choice because they are familiar with it, or by neccessity because of their skill and equipment, do not yeild the greatest experience. That is starting to change some with the DoN zones so time will tell.

*****

Zellar TP,
Sorry, but you were and are wrong. Yet Again. It's becoming a habit with you tho isn't it? LOL... calling a group of people "UBER" is a flame? These "UBER" people who you claim are so thin-skinned now as to not be able to take that kind of insult are the very ones who invented the term. You are just precious!
<giggles non-stop>

*****

Dranul,
I dance around cow crap in the pasture too. These "issues" as you call them are not much different. Mostly they were just excuses. With a couple of exceptions, which I commented on.

... NEXT!!!!

[Dranul]

I think we're all done here.

[Zeller TP]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 28 2005, 02:43 PM
Zellar TP,
Sorry, but you were and are wrong. Yet Again. It's becoming a habit with you tho isn't it? LOL... calling a group of people "UBER" is a flame? These "UBER" people who you claim are so thin-skinned now as to not be able to take that kind of insult are the very ones who invented the term. You are just precious!Funny, I don't see anyone here calling themselves "uber". Nobody I know has bragged to me about being "uber". Whenever I see that word used, it is being used by jealous little maggots like yourself, and as an epithet. So, yeah, it is an insult. And, yeah, we all knew what you meant by it. And, yeah, that's why you've been so thoroughly pounded in this thread.

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Dranul@Jul 28 2005, 02:50 PM
I think we're all done here.
Two words: "Ten" "Pages"

[chabeksis]

I agree with Jeb, I hope raiders get everything they can from the game. My only complaint is that I am having a hell of a time finding any guild to join. I started playing EQ pretty late, after the ldon expansion came out, then I had to take a break because I was working full time while going to school. However I a now getting really close to 70, and I have been trying to join a raiding guild, and at least on Xegony none of the high end guilds are recruiting, and the one that is requires you to have all of your elemental flags. Pickup raids are almost nonexistent, so I am really stuck in limbo.

To me that is where EQ is broken. I understand why there needs to be 10k hp necros if you are raiding OMM, or other high end content. What frustrates me is how difficult it is proving to find a guild to raid with.

[BlackHeart]

Zellar TP, you confuse "being pounded" with "being attacked by a lynch mob"
But I survived. Obviously, your ego will not. But, you are welcome to keep trying.

For the record:
A search on google for "everquest uber" netted 246,000 hits
A search for "eq uber" netted 846,000 or so.

But, I'm positive that each and every one of those is some jealous casual who uses the term as a derogitory<sp> remark.

[Jebasiz]

http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/clownwithgun.jpg

Blackheart can't raid apparently bcs he's to busy appearing at children birthday parties. I must say though..the gun for 6year olds is a bit "overpowering". Although, it just might make you "uber" in that setting.

[Zeller TP]

I suggest a different search. Try searching this board for the word "uber". A little more relevant, won't you agree?

Oh, and I didn't call you a jealous casual. I called you a jealous maggot. Get your terminology straight.

[BlackHeart]

I suggest a different search. Try searching this board for the word "uber". A little more relevant, won't you agree?

Not at all. You claim that "UBERS" didn't invent the word. This board hasn't been around long enough to determine that. Allakahzams has. Everlore maybe. Eqvualt maybe. A couple of the old IGN server boards before they trashed them and merged them all into one board.

Urban Dictionary:
Term with literal meaning of "above" in German. Brought to the mainstream in the early 80's by hardcore American punk band, the Dead Kennedys when using the term in the anti-Californian government song "California Uber Alles", which is a take off the German motto of "Deustchland Uber Alles", which translates to "Germany above all." The term was picked up in their native California stomping grounds by the typical surfers and "punks" and extended from there to many teenagers, the majority of which use the term online.

The tag was used to describe the high-end equipment that raiders started finding in the early planes and high-level characters (level 50) who were decked out in the best equipment, or who were exceptional at their class.

So, yet once again, you are wrong. Are you going for some kind of record? You're really pretty good at it. I think I'll call Ripley's...

[Jebasiz]

Are you serious? You think you're proving a point, or even logical? This thread is several pages long, and you have not brought ONE valid point to light.

Everything you write is clouded by the lack of judgement, foresight, and intelligence that your average school age kid can command. The only thing you proved you can do is cut and paste, and log onto a messageboard. That and whine alot.

You're argument about raid loot was decimated, and you seemed to have dropped that(3days to late, but it seems to be dwindling)..and now you've focused your energy on the word uber, it's definition and derivation there of. It's German, and..it's older then EQ. There, done.

Reguardless of context, and how it was used in the past..and how other people use it currently. The application of it by you, is derorgatory in nature. It's like me calling you a "stupid fuck" Stupid and fuck are terms in which are both older then eq, and as long as people like you are around, they'll outlast EQ. Thank you for letting me apply two more words..they're english, and I like that since it's my native language.

Make a point, not something that only you percieve to be a point, or shut the fuck up. It's that simple..randoming spewing shit over the internet and trying to "shotgun" a vague meaning to "own" someone is something 12 year olds do. It takes no real message and eventually someone smarter then you, will find something you said(because you type so damn much) to be correct..it'll probably be insignificant, I'm fairly certain you won't know you made a "point" when you typed it, but it'll eventually be there. It falls under the same principle, of that whole "monkeys pounding on keyboards and eventually coming out with a bible"

Quit being a fucking monkey.

[Xelgadis]

I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't get involved in this argument, but for fuck's sake, 10 pages of this shit is long old.

To sum up what would have been a rather lengthy post from myself:

Blackheart, your vague attempts at making points that are being countered again and again, with undisputable fact, is becoming exhausting to read. Simply realize you're wrong and live with it, you don't need to have the final word in this argument.

Here is some literature you should consider picking up, I believe it would behoove you to read it:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1787/dummies1ze.jpg

[BlackHeart]

Sorry, but when people go off on tangents like Zellar TP did, I feel they need a history lesson. Sadly, for him it will likely do no good. He doesn't seem to be the type of person who can learn much of anything unless he is beaten over the head with it.

But it is amazing what little things can make you guys go into temper tantrums.

Jeb, denial that a problem exists, just because it is in your favor, does not make the problem go away.

I did make a point. In fact I made two major points. Several times. No one has disputed them. No one can. You just go off on tangents about how ungrateful I am not to worship the ground you walk on blah blah blah etc etc etc. and how stupid I must be to not see things your way. All of your insults, finger-pointing and flexing and temper tantrums cannnot change the facts. You come here and prostitute yourselves with excuses and crap and the only proof you offer is that it must be truth because you say so. I don't buy that. Not at all. No normal thinking sane person would.

But, for you with short attention spans I will repeat and sum up my points...

Point #1 - Just because a person raids does not neccessarily prove that they have more game knowledge than a person who does not raid. A raider may play 30 hours a week (six 5-hour sessions) while a casual may play 30 hours a week (nine 2-hour sessions, and four 3-hour sessions) and you still believe somehow by some kind of magic the raider will garner more knowledge of the game because of it. I admit, that the raider MAY be more knowledgeable, but odds are he is only more knowlegeable about RAIDING.

Point #2 - There exists a HUGE gap the the quality of equipment between what a casual can have, and what a raider can have. The ONLY reason that this gap exists is the amount of time a raider can spend online at ONE SITTING (during acceptable RAID hours) which on average seems to be 5 hours or so, and the amount of time a casual can spend online at one sitting, which judging by those casuals that I know is usually 2 hours or less.

Do I beleive raiders need and deserve the best equipment in the game? Sure they do. They have earned that. They have sacrificed countless long-hour sessions at the computer. They have suffered through an endless stack of BigMacs and Domino's pizzas, gallons upon gallons of Dr Pepper, Mountain Dew, and Diet Coke, and a few zillion ciggarettes while at the computer because they were raiding and couldn't leave. They have lost girlfriends, had their marriages fail, lost jobs, gained pounds, lost countless hours of sleep, lost real life friends, suffered probably hundreds of health problems, and sacrificed social lives. They may very well be the sole reason for rising stock prices for companies that sell stuff like Preperation-H, Anusol, No-doz, Vivarin, as well as several other Pharmaceutical supply companies.

But, do they deserve equipment so powerful that for the most part it makes the rest of the game trivial, or as Jeb put it, "Boring as hell"? No. Not at all. If THEY deserve it, then so does anyone else who puts in the time and effort. 300 hours played is 300 hours played is 300 hours played. How those 300 hours are divided up should not cause such a huge gap in the equipment you can earn. A gap, certainly. But not a Grand Canyon sized gap.

I've been playing RP games and games in this genre longer than some of you have been alive. (Since 1977). At any time, during any of these games that I played, if we as players discovered something unbalanced or broken we tried to fix it. Especially something as "Monty Haul" unbalanced as this equipment gap in EQ. But worry not. Your advantage is safe. Your self-appointed God status is not in jepordy. I don't think it's likely to be fixed in EQ, or any other pay-to-play game because the people who make the decisions are in it for money, and if people get mad and quit because they were "nerfed" then the company will lose money.

I repeat ... Denial that a problem exists, just because it is in your favor, does not make the problem go away.

I know that my views are not popular. So? These same views are shared by many many people. I'm just the guy with the biggest mouth and will speak up, and the guy who doesn't care enough about what others think about me or care what nasty names you call me. I am not awed by your cleverness or your mastery of foul language. So... do your worst. Try anyway. You are all amatuers anyway compared to my ex-wife.

[Zeller TP]

I consider you owned on the who-started-this-flame-and-is-uber-an-insult "tangent". Everyone here but you gets it. Even you get it, but are incapable of admitting it.

Next subject:

But, do they deserve equipment so powerful that for the most part it makes the rest of the game trivial, or as Jeb put it, "Boring as hell"? No. Not at all. If THEY deserve it, then so does anyone else who puts in the time and effort. 300 hours played is 300 hours played is 300 hours played. How those 300 hours are divided up should not cause such a huge gap in the equipment you can earn. A gap, certainly. But not a Grand Canyon sized gap.
From this argument, I suppose we can assume that someone who works 300 hours at a McDonald's cash register deserves roughly the same pay as the CEO of McDonald's?

Are you a communist, BlackHeart? Maybe you should start talking about the means of production and the bourgeoisie.

Oh, and BTW, do you really play as much as, for example, me? How many AA's do you have? I don't see a magelo.

[BlackHeart]

From this argument, I suppose we can assume that someone who works 300 hours at a McDonald's cash register deserves roughly the same pay as the CEO of McDonald's?


Please stop trying to pwn me. You suck at it. You're not clever enough. This example you used it pitiful at best. But, I will explain it to you a little in terms maybe even you can understand.

We'll use that cash register person who works those 300 hours. Let's say he makes $7.00 an hour. I have no clue what Macdonalds employees earn, likely you would be a better source for that kind of info.

If he works those 300 hours in 5 hour shifts, say from noon til 5pm each day, it will take him 60 days to to work those 300 hours and earn himself $2100 before Uncle Sam takes his cut.

If his buddy, who also earns $7.00 an hour at the cash register works from 8am-10am, then from 3pm-6pm, that is still 5 hours a day and it will still take him 60 days to work 300 hours and earn $2100 before taxes.

So, you propose that the person who can work 5 hours at one time should be rewarded with double or triple the pay? He will earn a little bit more money in the long run because of the expense of driving back and forth to work and the like, but not double or triple.

Try again.

** Edit ***
I honestly don't know if I play as much as you or not. My work schedule sucks so bad sometimes that I am lucky to get in 3 or 4 two-hour sessions a week. Other times I can get in as many as 12-15 according to how the weekend goes.

I stopped trying to keep up with magelos a long time ago. Too much time wasted. If you want an idea of where I stand I will tell you this much. My necro is level 69.99 atm has roughly 4500 unbuffed hps and 250 AA. My bard is 70, has almost 400 AAs, and about 6200 hit points with an AC over 1500. The mage doesn't count because he is new and I really don't like him all that much. Might switch to a ranger or BL... undecided at this point.

[Brahman]

So, you propose that the person who can work 5 hours at one time should be rewarded with double or triple the pay? He will earn a little bit more money in the long run because of the expense of driving back and forth to work and the like, but not double or triple.

yes, he would be making more, and would be more likly for a promotion up to managment. So, you ownt yourself here. A person that cann't work straight through is not very valuable in any possition.

further, as i mentioned already, non-manditory raiding guilds (that would work well for people that cann't raid 6 hours straight) are becoming more popular, and required attendance %'s are coming DOWN.

I'm doing pretty damn well and you can ask jeb about my attendance. It falls MUCH closer in line with your "casual" definition than the uber one.

[Aldmare]

Seriously, it seems the basis of your argument it because you can't attain gear that is 'uber' because you can't invest the time into it as raiders do. You want to be rewarded for your minimal efforts, with things that aren't feasable (sp?) to you right now? So with your analogy above, what I am gathering from it, you want to be rewarded not by committment to a guild or anything that requires hard work (which requires alot of hours). So it's kind of like you want to see something along the lines of "DING you've hit 200 days played, *piece of tacvi armor appears in inventory*" That is just silly, and as if DoN upgrades weren't easy enough to get which are damn near EP equivelent or better, MPG trials, RSS drops (which wield some items that are mostly better than p5 time items for minimal time investment). I am just trying to make a little sense of your issue you here. And I am not sure what the comment about 'i've been playing RPG's for x-years' has to do with the issue at hand, and im sure you werent some dev trying work out balance issues in Pong back in the day. You know there are games that reward you not based on time invested into it, such as Guild Wars, which you might want to check out, because obviously you're angry at the mechanics of EQ, and it won't change ever :blink:

[BlackHeart]

yes, he would be making more, and would be more likly for a promotion up to managment. So, you ownt yourself here. A person that cann't work straight through is not very valuable in that possition.


Likely he might just be up for promotion to management. But that will earn him maybe a buck or two as a raise. That will not double or triple his salary. And that wasn't the analagy was it? We were talking about 2 people who worked the same job for 300 hours. Not what might happen after a couple years on the job. He might also get fired because he refused to work a split shift like his co-worker.

Seriously, it seems the basis of your argument it because you can't attain gear that is 'uber' because you can't invest the time into it as raiders do.

Incorrect. I can invest the time. For the most part I, and many others can invest the same amount of time playing that a lot of raiders do. We just can't invest that time in huge chunks at once. Read above analagy. 300 hours = 300 hours.

I'm not angry at the mechanics of EQ. Just this one seriously broken thing. The rest of the bugs and broken quests and nonesense are trivial.

[Zeller TP]

This example you used it pitiful at best
Why, exactly? You're pretty good at dismissing arguments out of hand for no reason.

If he works those 300 hours in 5 hour shifts, say from noon til 5pm each day, it will take him 60 days to to work those 300 hours and earn himself $2100 before Uncle Sam takes his cut.

If his buddy, who also earns $7.00 an hour at the cash register works from 8am-10am, then from 3pm-6pm, that is still 5 hours a day and it will still take him 60 days to work 300 hours and earn $2100 before taxes.

You see, the problem with this reasoning is that raiders and non-raiders don't do the same thing. This is what you fail to understand. This is what you continually ignore with your selective cut-n-paste. This is why your argument, from the start, has no merit whatsoever. Seriously, what was the last mob that you raided? How does the gear available TODAY, from DoN points, compare to the gear that that mob drops?

My necro is level 69.99 atm has roughly 4500 unbuffed hps and 250 AA
AA's are, to some extent, a measure of the amount of time you put into the game while killing stuff. I'll ignore the AA of your other toons - you don't think, do you, that your necro deserves gear based on the time you put into your bard? Also, time put in while not killing stuff is irrelevant. I don't think even you would argue that someone who sits in PoK for 300 hours deserves the loot of someone who's raided for 300 hours.

So let's look at that AA. You've said over and over again that you put in as much time as a raider, and are therefore entitled to gear that is almost as good as a raider's. Last time I checked I had almost 900 AA. Most people in my guild have similar amounts of AA, if not more. And plenty of them have several alts. Now: how do you think we got it? From raiding? Consider how much more we MUST play than you in order to amass that much AA AFTER we raid for - What did you say? Oh, yes - 6 hours at a stretch.

[Brahman]

Likely he might just be up for promotion to management. But that will earn him maybe a buck or two as a raise. That will not double or triple his salary. And that wasn't the analagy was it? We were talking about 2 people who worked the same job for 300 hours. Not what might happen after a couple years on the job. He might also get fired because he refused to work a split shift like his co-worker.

no i think it IS a relavant point. and I think the 40 grand that the managers make a year is ALOT more than 7 bux an hour.

the hardcore straight 6 hours of play while lvling up is like the register work, joining a raiding guild is the promotion, while the guy who can only work small blocks of time is still working the register.

it is the SAME thing.

EDIT::: zellar makes a great point as well. I know raiders that have max raid LAA, max LAA, max AAs, maxed xp into lvl 70, AND has been that was for months. They STILL join xp groups to help their guildies.

[Unclean]

I just don't see how the game is broken. Less than perfect maybe, but not broken. As a casual player (8 hours a week), there's plenty of content to keep me occupied that's both challenging and fun.

As far as the raiders having more knowledge than me, well, in general everyone that's played a necro longer than me (about 1 year) should know more than me. That's why I'm here! But all knowledge is specialized. Your family doctor isn't performing brain surgery.

For example if we're talking about raiding, then I would defer to the raiders here. If we're talking about crawling through plane of hate / mischief / etc., then I would probably be the resident expert here, since that's where my specialty lies - old world dungeons.

Most of us have a bullshit-o-meter that tells us when somebody giving us advice is speaking outside of their realm of expertise. So anybody who's good at giving and taking advice on teh intraweb is going to follow bruce lee's credo and "take what is useful, discard what is not".

As far as who is deserving of the "uber" gear in EQ, well I'll let sony worry about that. I judge the game by my experience with it, and as long as I am personally fufilled, I'll continue to play. Whatever others get out of the game, well that's "their head" as friend used to say.

Are there people out there who think I'm lame because I'd rather crawl plane of mischief than be gimped into a raid where I could "advance" my toon? Fuck yeah, people call me lame all the time. Why should I care if somebody thinks I'm lame in a video game?

Bottom line: As a casual player, I don't feel that I have anything to prove in EQ.

I think one of the points blackheart was trying to make is that once in a while, ironically, somebody will spend 3 hours calling me lame, when their real life accomplishments = zero. Who here doesn't know a handful of people who seem to think that eq accomplishments = RL accomplishments? But I just don't think that's the case with the peeps arguing here. If any of these guys were barely-post-pubescent 300 pound losers living in their parent's basement, it would have come out by now.

Nope it just comes down to the raiders here making better arguments. Blackheart, if you look past all the condescending attitudes and petty insults (yourself included), you could see that these guys know their shit, are proud of what they've achieved, and make some very good points! Could some of their points have been made better, and with less attitude? Yep, but if you look hard enough, the gems of wisdom are there.

Just some random thoughts on this huge thread! 15 pages maybe?

[BlackHeart]

Why, exactly? You're pretty good at dismissing arguments out of hand for no reason
Please see cow pasture and cow crap analagy above.

You see, the problem with this reasoning is that raiders and non-raiders don't do the same thing.

I agree. That is the whole point. Casuals are not allowed to do what raiders do ONLY BECAUSE of the time constraint. While it's true that a lot of casuals would never do any of it anyway because a lot are not that dedicated, there are some that, given a chance to do it within their time limits of play, they would persue it.

I don't have a problem with people getting rewarded for doing things that are harder. It's why I started doing Hard LDoNs instead of the easier ones. It's why I do more DoNs now that anything else. It's why I go to Vxed for XP instead of PoN or PoD.

But I do have a problem with people being excluded from these harder more rewarding parts of the game simply because of those time restraints. I do have a problem with the HUGE HUGE gap in the level of equipment between those that have those huge chunks of time compared to those who don't.

no i think it IS a relavant point. and I think the 40 grand that the managers make a year is ALOT more than 7 bux an hour.

the hardcore straight 6 hours of play while lvling up is like the register work, joining a raiding guild is the promotion, while the guy who can only work small blocks of time is still working the register.

it is the SAME thing.


Wrong. Because that MacDonalds manager, once he gets his promotion will now have to put in twice as much time as he did before and he will have to know not only how to run the register, but how to cook the burgers, how to work the drive-thru and how to make a schedule and order supplies and hire and fire people. And that MacDonalds manager will not go from cash register flunkie right to manager. He will have several steps and promotions along the way to get to be a manager. He will have to learn and do practically every job in MacDonalds before he is even considered to be a manager candidate. THEN, and ONLY THEN will he make that $40k a year.

it is NOT the SAME thing. Not even close.

I will give you points for a good college try tho.. And bonus points for not resorting to temper tantrums and name calling like so many others here.

But then, I have to give a reduction because you agreed with Zellar, because you HAVE to know that even if I said my toons had 1000 AA's each he would have claimed more.

**Edit add on **

I just don't see how the game is broken

It's not. Just this one tiny thing is broken. It will never get fixed, SOE will never fix it. Can you imagine the whinefest that would cause? Just look at the rucus the mere suggestion started here.


you could see that these guys know their shit, are proud of what they've achieved, and make some very good points!

Absolutely agree. Some of them. Others have proven without a doubt that they don't their ass from a hole in the ground

Could some of their points have been made better, and with less attitude? Yep, but if you look hard enough, the gems of wisdom are there.

Agree again. But I have to admit that I lose interest really quick and just tend to skim posts that are filled with foul language and insults. So it is sometimes hard to spot that tiny gem of wisdom when it's covered with such huge piles of dung.

[Brahman]

Wrong. Because that MacDonalds manager, once he gets his promotion will now have to put in twice as much time as he did before and he will have to know not only how to run the register, but how to cook the burgers, how to work the drive-thru and how to make a schedule and order supplies and hire and fire people.

I know you don't realize it, but you just made my point 100%.

raiding necro's have to know lots of strats, above and beyond that of just a normal avg grouping necro. Some of the best grouping warriors i know, fuck up BAD when stepping up to MT for a major raiding guild. Decent grouping necro's are frequently not worth shit in a raid, ect, ect. There are many skills you have to learn before you get into the raiding guild as a full member, and then you wont be kept around long enough to become "reet" if you dont pick up those further skills. And... Do you really think all mc'donalds managers work 80+ hours a week for that 40k a year? sorry buddy, only the shitty ones do.

And that MacDonalds manager will not go from cash register flunkie right to manager. He will have several steps and promotions along the way to get to be a manager. He will have to learn and do practically every job in MacDonalds before he is even considered to be a manager candidate. THEN, and ONLY THEN will he make that $40k a year.


and the raiding necro wont go right from 4k hps to 10k hps either.


it is NOT the SAME thing. Not even close.

i'm fairly certain i just made the similarities even more clear, with just some further explination of your own arguments. So yeah, once again the SAME EXACT thing.

I will give you points for a good college try tho.. And bonus points for not resorting to temper tantrums and name calling like so many others here.

I miss flaming eachother man, but after reading you go on and on about this over the years, i thought i would take a real shot at trying to point out your flaws. Flaws that i have seen since I couldn't play more than 2 hours at a time, flaws that were there when i still had those same time constraints and still was holding the top DKP spot in a 12 hour a day raiding guild.

But then, I have to give a reduction because you agreed with Zellar, because you HAVE to know that even if I said my toons had 1000 AA's each he would have claimed more.

I disagree, because indeed everyone I know that has been raiding for a good chunk of time has 500+ AAs. Like I said, I know lots that are 100% maxed on character development (discounting a few more upgrades / augs) that are 90%+ attendance people. by 100% maxed I mean every key/flag in the game, BiC done up to were our guild is, LDoN aug maxed, maxed DoN progression for where my guild is in progression, maxed tradeskills, ect.

Now, in all honesty the ONLY thing that has kept me from being an officer in a hardcore raiding guild in the past was my 2 hours on 2 hours off 2 hours on, 30 min off, 2 more hours on raiding style. But that is the only glass ceiling I have hit due to my choppy play time. Fuck even I who HATES xping anymore have a pretty large chunk of my BiC done, 500+ AAs, and getting up there in tradeskills as well.

[Jebasiz]

I'm doing pretty damn well and you can ask jeb about my attendance. It falls MUCH closer in line with your "casual" definition than the uber one.


Ya brahman slacks!

EDIT::: zellar makes a great point as well. I know raiders that have max raid LAA, max LAA, max AAs, maxed xp into lvl 70, AND has been that was for months. They STILL join xp groups to help their guildies.

Not doing tradeskills, I may as well be maxed...and I still group. Just like winning my 15th(no joke) trial of fear last night..I didn't need the loot, exp, or cap extension on resists(it's maxed), but a guildmate needed it...so I went. Of course after being there 15 times prior to that, the trial was trivial as hell..and flawless(as would be expected).

Point #1 - Just because a person raids does not neccessarily prove that they have more game knowledge than a person who does not raid. A raider may play 30 hours a week (six 5-hour sessions) while a casual may play 30 hours a week (nine 2-hour sessions, and four 3-hour sessions) and you still believe somehow by some kind of magic the raider will garner more knowledge of the game because of it. I admit, that the raider MAY be more knowledgeable, but odds are he is only more knowlegeable about RAIDING.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/gw01749/stew27zq1.jpg

Stop being "that guy"

Chances are the "raider" is going to look things up, know every resist check of every spell he has, and that of any spell he/she has a chance to encounter. He's also gonna know exactly how hard mobs hit, agro ranges, assist ranges, which mobs are linked(if any), how they heal, how often they heal(if they heal), and how much it's for. They're also gonna know how many mob density and what and how he's going to pull each mob, mob set, room, and/or group of rooms. Chances are, he's going to go deeper in the zone, kill more of it and experience more of any zone then the casual gamer is going to be able to. Quit bullshiting yourself and attempting to bullshit everyone else. You won't experience more then a raid geared/exp'd character in any setting, if for nothing else...(neglecting the significant fact that your severely mentally fucking retarded)your gear won't allow you to. (Just to reinterate, you're fucking stupid)


Point #2 - There exists a HUGE gap the the quality of equipment between what a casual can have, and what a raider can have. The ONLY reason that this gap exists is the amount of time a raider can spend online at ONE SITTING (during acceptable RAID hours) which on average seems to be 5 hours or so, and the amount of time a casual can spend online at one sitting, which judging by those casuals that I know is usually 2 hours or less.


MOST casual players develop or find a way to experience alot of raid content on their own. They either join family guilds that also raid, or join family guilds that raid with other guilds. The other option..is joining or creating an open pick up raid organization.

Those that don't, really don't have any ground for an argument. Most people who want something bad enough find a way to attain it. Then again, you spend all your time bitching, and none of it improving your situation.

Do I beleive raiders need and deserve the best equipment in the game? Sure they do. They have earned that. They have sacrificed countless long-hour sessions at the computer. They have suffered through an endless stack of BigMacs and Domino's pizzas, gallons upon gallons of Dr Pepper, Mountain Dew, and Diet Coke, and a few zillion ciggarettes while at the computer because they were raiding and couldn't leave. They have lost girlfriends, had their marriages fail, lost jobs, gained pounds, lost countless hours of sleep, lost real life friends, suffered probably hundreds of health problems, and sacrificed social lives. They may very well be the sole reason for rising stock prices for companies that sell stuff like Preperation-H, Anusol, No-doz, Vivarin, as well as several other Pharmaceutical supply companies.


Ya and when you say "uber" it has no negative meaning! You're full of shit. This paragraph is a direct reflection of your jealousy. Have I lost girlfriends since playing eq..after 5 years, well duh..and it woulda happened anyway. Do I eat healthy? NO, and I didn't before EQ. I don't smoke. I don't like soda, or Mc'donalds.

The reason I started even playing EQ was..I injured my shoulder(torn rotator cuff, dislocated shoulder, nerve dmg, and a slight shoulder injury/break, due to massive blunt trauma omgz!) after passing the physical fitness test to goto San Diego to become a Navy Seal. I'm a former gym rat with 20% of my nerve cluster in my left shoulder dead. I lost 10 degrees of motion, and about 50% of the strength in my left shoulder and arm. You can't tell by looking at me..I'm not a freak, but I will never again benchpress 400lbs, or shoulder press 275lbs. I can live with all that, I did it to myself.. I excelled at college until my mother had a massive heart attack, and then I dropped out to be closer to her.(none of this has anything to do with EQ, sometimes life is hard..I'm not alcoholic(some people would be after that), I don't smoke..I'm not a womanizer, and I don't abuse to the women I do date..I have a good job(all things considered, and am fully independent) and alot of good friends.

The only thing I really sacrifice is, not going to movies on opening day, I used to enjoy that a lot, but I usually raid then and see the matinee the next day(saturday) which I've also come to enjoy, and it's about $2.50 less to see the movie, so yay for economy.

But, do they deserve equipment so powerful that for the most part it makes the rest of the game trivial, or as Jeb put it, "Boring as hell"? No. Not at all. If THEY deserve it, then so does anyone else who puts in the time and effort. 300 hours played is 300 hours played is 300 hours played. How those 300 hours are divided up should not cause such a huge gap in the equipment you can earn. A gap, certainly. But not a Grand Canyon sized gap.


If I tell an employer that I can only work 2 hours at a time, but can still work 8 hours a day, I won't even get hired. If someone is gonna pay/reward you for an effort, the person who can sustain that effort is always going to be rewarded better.

I've been playing RP games and games in this genre longer than some of you have been alive. (Since 1977).

Your immaturity and inability to see things as the way that EVERYONE else here is staggering for someone that's around 40years old. You'd really think someone with that much life experience wouldn't be so fucking clueless. You're right about one thing though, the raid loot to group loot "gap" isn't going to go away. They're not going to put anyone in "god mode"(and this is what you want, you want god mode for ldon, I guess those "high risk" missions are just to fucking difficult for you at level 70, with attuneable and no drop loot for wos, rcod, and mpg(alot of is in on par, or just ever so slightly less then potime)) for the content they choose to spend their time in.

It was funny, last night..since we killed vishimitar two days ago, we had no instanced content available to us. So the guildleader asked us what we wanted to do. Normally epic raids and the like(are lame as fell) cause quite a bit of unhappiness, and some even log off when they're called. I put a movie in the DvD player, and pop some popcorn and find other ways to divide my attention, since that content is so mind-numblingly boring. Anyway, we did some epic, and even went and killed some BiC mobs. People would rather do almost senseless raids(ALL the loot went to alts, one piece off cynosure..no alts wanted, so we willed a friend of mine into qvic and he looted), then go form groups and get experience. It's THAT boring, that people would rather raid ANYTHING, then go exp.

Soe is painfully aware of this. Note: Fires of heaven, Afterlife, Arch Overseers, much of triton, Legacy of steel, Blades of Wrath, Malus Imperium, Prophecy, Phantom Raiders, Cats In Hats, etc etc etc...All of the older guilds that were "perenial all-stars" of killing content first/soon after release have always had a disgusting amount of turnover...I mean Mc'Donalds has better employee retention then some of these guilds used to. Some of these guilds are completely gone(and it's a short list) People who raid, want to raid. Game developer websites list as one of the top reasons people play games online, is for the challenge. It's WAY ABOVE social interraction, or any number of "other reasons".

Exping for 300 hours in a group setting rewards you with exp..it's all in the name.
If you want items, it's not necessarily going to happen while you gain exp. You have to camp them, or raid for them.

FOR YEARS there was no raid function, one group got all the exp for like 80-90% of the raid. Once in a while, if the group with the best dps had a death or two, a wizard ran oom, a rogue was dragging a corpse or scouting you'd get exp..once. You were there for content, to kill things cooperatively with a large amount of people that were impossible to kill otherwise(how can you not see this distinction..whipe the jizz off your face/eyes and read with an intent to comprehend what's on your screen, that or stop choking on cock before reading Necrotalk).

If his buddy, who also earns $7.00 an hour at the cash register works from 8am-10am, then from 3pm-6pm, that is still 5 hours a day and it will still take him 60 days to work 300 hours and earn $2100 before taxes.


He'd be fired, no company could arrange scheduling to mirror his. "help wanted: shift monday-friday 10am-3pm(3hour unpaid break in work) 6pm-9pm daily" it's 8 hours a day, technically full time, but who the hell would do that? Not to mention, the person next to him working 8 hours straight is getting paid $15/hour.


I stopped trying to keep up with magelos a long time ago. Too much time wasted. If you want an idea of where I stand I will tell you this much. My necro is level 69.99 atm has roughly 4500 unbuffed hps and 250 AA. My bard is 70, has almost 400 AAs, and about 6200 hit points with an AC over 1500. The mage doesn't count because he is new and I really don't like him all that much. Might switch to a ranger or BL... undecided at this point.


Heh, 250 aa..my dad plays a beastlord, and largely has drops available to anyone, and is like 6500hps or so unbuffed. I've recently gotten him a few drops that aren't "groupable" but he has some ornate still, so I'm guess even his stats are attainable by people who don't have friends/family in raid guilds that are willing to help him. I looked at his gear, with the exception of his ornate boots, every single piece of his gear has atleast 90hps...most is around 115-120...except for the 3-4 pieces I got him which are 140-250hp.

When he groups, he's a very viable off-tank in most content(especially pre-mpg) and when soloing he's a machine..non-stop killing, matching most groups kill for kill. I don't see a weakness, in how casual people can gear themselves if they do it intelligently. You're focuses(and his) are never going to be equal to a current geared raider..you're hps(nor his) never are gonna be close, neither will mana. It will be very good for where you play, exp, and farm though. This may come as a shock, but..there is and always will be, a place for people in raid gear to exp and places for casual people to exp. The difference in exp is always large, although casual players definetly have us beat on breadth of viable content to play in. Right now there's 2-3 zones, and 2 missions zones that'd I'd even bother with for exp...quite a narrow playing field. If I had more time, I'd probably go to the more casual exp settings and play around there..where one missed heal or overpull/mez resist doesn't equate to half a group dying.

[Felicite]

I know you are, but what am I.

Sometime between now and page 20 I'm going to need a summary.. I forgot what we are fighting about.. :wacko:

Did I find this here? Seems sort of relevant.

http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/stab.gif

Gee.. why is the "devil" pink.. don't you think the devil should be blue?

http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/angel_devil.jpg

I wish I had found this when Goddess Gothique was visiting.. of course, maybe I found this on her boards.

http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/bear.gif

Here is one for all you working and family people out there.

http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/comic_history.gif

It was all so easy in the old days.

http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/crankybirtch.jpg

Warning: Incoming Parody.. I do not support or endorse these dead Nazis.

http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/d27d0aaf.png

I think Jeb needs a SIG base like this.

http://www.obsessionmatrix.com/rawr_pok.jpg

Out of energy.. and that's only one folder.. what was the question, again?

[Warspite]

Any relation to the Robert Graves classic iClaudius?

I really actually want an iRommel... I hear it comes with free MP3's of the Horst Wessel Lied and Deutschland Uber Alles....


Oops... I said "uber".... thus bringing this thread back on track... sort of a De-Derailment.

[Jebasiz]

haha, looks like the lizard shit a house.

page 11 anyone?

[Zeller TP]

Page 11 inc ...

Originally posted by BlackHeart+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlackHeart)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by Zeller+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zeller)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by BlackHeart
<!--QuoteBegin-Zeller@
From this argument, I suppose we can assume that someone who works 300 hours at a McDonald's cash register deserves roughly the same pay as the CEO of McDonald's?This example you used it pitiful at bestWhy, exactly? You're pretty good at dismissing arguments out of hand for no reason[/b]Please see cow pasture and cow crap analagy above.[/b][/quote]
Lol. Let's see how many more pointless insults you can come up with in lieu of a valid argument. There's 2 on this one point. I'll keep counting. And I'll keep adding the context back in as you delete it.

<!--QuoteBegin-BlackHeart
But then, I have to give a reduction because you agreed with Zellar, because you HAVE to know that even if I said my toons had 1000 AA's each he would have claimed more.[/quote]
Blackheart, your problem is that pretty soon the Magelo site is going to be back up. And then people will be able to find out exactly how many AA I had last time I updated (June sometime), and they're going to know by the "Authentic" logo on the Magelo that it can't be faked. And then, once again, they are going to know that you've just owned yourself.

[Unclean]

What about iRobot?

Or iChing?

[Azrioth]

Philosophical question. Why does black keep typing?

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Azrioth@Jul 29 2005, 02:40 PM
Philosophical question. Why does black keep typing?
Blackheart is a Bard.. they *can't* stop typing.

Stop Typing = Death

[BlackHeart]

Chances are the "raider" is going to look things up, know every resist check of every spell he has, and that of any spell he/she has a chance to encounter. He's also gonna know exactly how hard mobs hit, agro ranges, assist ranges, which mobs are linked(if any), how they heal, how often they heal(if they heal), and how much it's for. They're also gonna know how many mob density and what and how he's going to pull each mob, mob set, room, and/or group of rooms... <snip>


Blah blah blah ... So? Is a casual so dense that he doesn't even know how to type http://lucy.allakhazam.com? Or go to one of the dozens of other information sites? Or are you suggesting that they are just too lazy or ignorant?

Your immaturity and inability to see things as the way that EVERYONE else here...
That's hilarious coming from a guy who can't even carry on a civilized debate like an adult with someone who doesn't agree with him. Really Hilarious.

You call me stupid but you can't even fathom the concept of a split shift. Not every job is a 9-5 eight hour deal. Real life is not at all like high-school. My youngest daughter works at a Chinese resturant part time that makes her work 11am to 1:30pm and she has to work from 4pm to 7:30pm as well. That job has changed her hours several times since she has worked there. Always split shift tho. It sucks as far as jobs go, but the tips are decent and she can schedule classes around it most of the time because it's close to campus. And btw, there are several other people there that make the same wages but work straight 6 or 7 hour shifts.

You keep proving that you're not the brightest lightbulb in the lamp skippy. For you to call ANYONE else stupid is a joke. You keep grasping at these little things that you think are holes in my logic and running with them like you have found a prize in cracker jacks.

There is an old piece of advice that you should really heed: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

I know you or some other brainless twit with an IQ comparable to their shoe size will have something else smart to say about that, or try to turn it around, but oh well. Like I said before, what you or your cronies think doesn't matter much to me. I'm just killing some downtime anyway.

When and if you have something, ANYTHING, to say that is a valid point that can be proven by other means than, "BECAUSE I SAY SO" and discuss it like a rational thinking adult, without throwing little hissy fits, then I will listen. When your posts are filled with garbage it's just gonna be filtered out like all the rest of the trash.

**********************************
/off Topic
Sorry about your mom. Went through that same thing with mine a few years ago. I hope yours fairs better.
/Back On Topic and to being an arrogant low-life casual jerk again
**********************************


Blackheart, your problem is that pretty soon the Magelo site is going to be back up. And then people will be able to find out exactly how many AA I had last time I updated (June sometime), and they're going to know by the "Authentic" logo on the Magelo that it can't be faked. And then, once again, they are going to know that you've just owned yourself.

Not my problem at all, it's yours. I could care less if you have 2000 AA's. Doesn't change your IQ or your personality.

Philosophical question. Why does black keep typing?
Because if I have to suffer here at work then everyone has to suffer with me!

[Jebasiz]

There is an old piece of advice that you should really heed: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt."


Most ironic statement ever.

You keep grasping at these little things that you think are holes in my logic and running with them like you have found a prize in cracker jacks.


There's no room for logic in the crackerjack box...your toon's gear is in the way!
(even I can't believe I'm posting this)

"1,1 2,2 3,3, 4,4" Would be both: more intelligent and make more sense then the shit he's been typing.

edit:
I guess the other stuff I said is incovenient for his argument since he didn't "pick that stuff apart" too.

Honestly, I'll give you credit for one thing. You don't give up.

The items available to casual players are tuned(I think correctly) for the content that people who play casually are going to experience on a regular basis.

The raid loot available to raiders is consistent with what's needed to progress further in raid content.

It's not going to change, they won't put casual players in current raid gear. It's unbalancing in that setting/niche of the game. The "gap" is always going to be there.

What part of this is so hard to understand? It's not broken, it's not something that needs to be fixed..it's something that's calculated, redone, and recalculated.

When I was in PoTime on bertoxxulous. We were the only people with access on that server, and it was early on in progression to be there. We watched loot get moved from phase 2 to phase 5. We watched regen 7 get added to the barrier of freezing winds. We watched preservation of xegony get added to gloves of unseen. Then they even added some drops in phase 3(waaaaaay later) like the ossien of limitless time. At times they change loot, and upgrade underpowered items (for effort it takes to attain them). The first people into Anguish would kill a mini-named that hits for 3k and get a ruby..now it's a 90/90/90 aug.

Clearly these are "fixes". The loot table for groupable content is quite extensive and much better then it ever has been before..attuneable loot is very nice. The family guild orientated epic 1.5 quests have chests with items that are very respectable.(note:some of those epic quests are indeed harder then I feel they should be(wizard and mage inparticular), and I have numerous /feedbacks in on them. EVEN THOUGH, they were not the least bit challenging for my guild, but that's because I'm an "elitest prick!").

I still don't get the argument. You still have no basis for it. Please just let it go.
Classes are not balanced, loot for content (in large part) is.

[Zeller TP]

Originally posted by Jebasiz+Jul 29 2005, 02:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jebasiz @ Jul 29 2005, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by BlackHeart@Jul 29 2005, 02:55 PM
There is an old piece of advice that you should really heed: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
Most ironic statement ever.
[/b]

No, I think this one is:

<!--QuoteBegin-BlackHeart@Jul 29 2005, 02:55 PM
That's hilarious coming from a guy who can't even carry on a civilized debate like an adult with someone who doesn't agree with him. Really Hilarious.[/quote]

[Jebasiz]

Toss up!

[Unclean]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 29 2005, 10:34 PM
Toss up!
For the win!

[Xelgadis]

Seeing as it appears that this argument will continue for the next few hundred years...

Let's fast forward a few years and see what Mr. Spock has to say about Blackheart:

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1076/spock0fg.jpg

Granted, that's been established for quite a while now, but it's always fun to reiterate it.

The best course of action now, Blackheart, is to follow the advice of Arnold:

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/3818/arnold9nu.jpg

Do this now, and perhaps Spock's outlook on you will change. :rolleyes:

[Brahman]

Originally posted by Brahman@Jul 29 2005, 04:37 PM
Wrong. Because that MacDonalds manager, once he gets his promotion will now have to put in twice as much time as he did before and he will have to know not only how to run the register, but how to cook the burgers, how to work the drive-thru and how to make a schedule and order supplies and hire and fire people.

I know you don't realize it, but you just made my point 100%.

raiding necro's have to know lots of strats, above and beyond that of just a normal avg grouping necro. Some of the best grouping warriors i know, fuck up BAD when stepping up to MT for a major raiding guild. Decent grouping necro's are frequently not worth shit in a raid, ect, ect. There are many skills you have to learn before you get into the raiding guild as a full member, and then you wont be kept around long enough to become "reet" if you dont pick up those further skills. And... Do you really think all mc'donalds managers work 80+ hours a week for that 40k a year? sorry buddy, only the shitty ones do.

And that MacDonalds manager will not go from cash register flunkie right to manager. He will have several steps and promotions along the way to get to be a manager. He will have to learn and do practically every job in MacDonalds before he is even considered to be a manager candidate. THEN, and ONLY THEN will he make that $40k a year.


and the raiding necro wont go right from 4k hps to 10k hps either.


it is NOT the SAME thing. Not even close.

i'm fairly certain i just made the similarities even more clear, with just some further explination of your own arguments. So yeah, once again the SAME EXACT thing.

I will give you points for a good college try tho.. And bonus points for not resorting to temper tantrums and name calling like so many others here.

I miss flaming eachother man, but after reading you go on and on about this over the years, i thought i would take a real shot at trying to point out your flaws. Flaws that i have seen since I couldn't play more than 2 hours at a time, flaws that were there when i still had those same time constraints and still was holding the top DKP spot in a 12 hour a day raiding guild.

But then, I have to give a reduction because you agreed with Zellar, because you HAVE to know that even if I said my toons had 1000 AA's each he would have claimed more.

I disagree, because indeed everyone I know that has been raiding for a good chunk of time has 500+ AAs. Like I said, I know lots that are 100% maxed on character development (discounting a few more upgrades / augs) that are 90%+ attendance people. by 100% maxed I mean every key/flag in the game, BiC done up to were our guild is, LDoN aug maxed, maxed DoN progression for where my guild is in progression, maxed tradeskills, ect.

Now, in all honesty the ONLY thing that has kept me from being an officer in a hardcore raiding guild in the past was my 2 hours on 2 hours off 2 hours on, 30 min off, 2 more hours on raiding style. But that is the only glass ceiling I have hit due to my choppy play time. Fuck even I who HATES xping anymore have a pretty large chunk of my BiC done, 500+ AAs, and getting up there in tradeskills as well.
quoted, because you totally ignored it Blackheart, i do hope you will respond rather than blow it off.

[Jebasiz]

quoted, because you totally ignored it Blackheart, i do hope you will respond rather than blow it off.


Don't wait on that. He just skips over stuff that he'd rather not/can't address.

[Wreckum]

After all the discussion, I have to put one point in. I am in a decent guild, and we have been making good progress towards the end game. The problem is, most of the mobs we want to try are constantly being farmed, by the better guilds for who this content is now trivial (I refuse to use the U word lol).
Now, I agree that someone who invests more time and energy is more deserving of a reward better than someone who hasn't. I don't want something for nothing, but I would like the chance to get that something, and if the something is constantly being farmed, there goes that chance. That's my only gripe, but I can see the farmers point, too.(Farmers point being..an easy way to equip our new members)
Immediatly upon EQ2's release, (when the servers emptied out), I had a chance to join one of the top end guilds on our server. They were taking almost anyone that had apped, simply for numbers, and time flagging them quickly, (shortcutting them in) I chose instead to stay in my guild. I had seen some of the members the took, and I remeber how good this guild was before the server emptied. The newer members destroyed them. They went from being high-end and coordinated, to zerg. I want to be time flagged, and I will, eventually.(Yes, I know Time is no longer the "end game" lol) But I want to do it in normal progression, with friends and guildies I get along with, even knowing this will take a while.
And as for 200hp gear, there has been some very nice drops from the war going on, and that's actually rather easy to obtain, as long as you are quick lol

[Jebasiz]

Mob/spawn contention is as old as eq is(older if you played other online games). They alleviated a TON of it with instancing. Unfortunetly they didn't start doing that until plane of time. There are "other raids" that are on par with EP's and phase 1-3 time, like a few of the ikknz raids(drops upgrades to alot of time loot), ikknz group trials, drop raid level loot. Tirranun, the gimpest of the DoN dragons..is fairly easy and drops time level loot. Along with Emoush and Volkara. There's alot to keep you busy, and it happens to help with progression, so if/when you happen to find RZtWL, or TRC, Coirnav etc up..you don't fail and have to wait for another chance.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Veratu@Jul 26 2005, 12:06 PM
I personally have yet to meet a person in a high-end raiding guild that didn't know more about the game than I (and I'm no slouch if I do say so myself!).
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA....

OMG you need to come to Drinal / TM!

Some of the tards we got on there, ha ha ha, woo man, they kill me. I've seen time geared guild groups try and KS us on named in RCoD and wipe and then we'll make the scoop. I love it.


P.S. Wasn't questioning your knowledge of the game, just how lucky you are about not meeting high end tards. ;)

[BlackHeart]

Sorry guys and gals. Had to put in a long Friday night and most of Saturday at work.

WARNING.. This will likely be long and boring.


raiding necro's have to know lots of strats, above and beyond that of just a normal avg grouping necro. Some of the best grouping warriors i know, fuck up BAD when stepping up to MT for a major raiding guild.

Maybe I've just seen too many posts on various boards by self-proclaimed uber-raiders that talk about how they can be mostly afk or watch a movie during most raids. I know they probably exagerate and that it's not true for the really big targets but...


Decent grouping necro's are frequently not worth shit in a raid, ect, ect. There are many skills you have to learn before you get into the raiding guild as a full member, and then you wont be kept around long enough to become "reet" if you dont pick up those further skills.

It's a game. It's not brain surgery. I imagine most necro's who have gotten to level 70 with a few hundred AAs could probably learn the tricks of the raiding trade. Zellar did, so pretty much anyone that has fingers to pound on a keyboard probably could learn as well, even if those fingers drag on the ground most of the other time like his.


And... Do you really think all mc'donalds managers work 80+ hours a week for that 40k a year? sorry buddy, only the shitty ones do.

Any management position that you are put on salary for will automatically mean you put in a lot more hours. That's why they put you on salary so they can get you to work those hours. Maybe double is an exageration, but not too much of one. MacDonalds is no different. So any manager that wants to be a good one will put in the hours. Or he won't be a manager very long.


and the raiding necro wont go right from 4k hps to 10k hps either.

But the point is that he has a chance to get to 10k hps. Even if it's just a 5% chance it is still a chance. A casual has 0%. See, most of you think I and the other casuals want this crap handed to us. We don't. I wouldn't care if I had to put in 700 hours for every 300 hours that a raider has to put in. Just so long as it was remotely possible. I may never do any of it, but so long as the possibility was there I would be content.


I miss flaming eachother man, but after reading you go on and on about this over the years, i thought i would take a real shot at trying to point out your flaws. Flaws that i have seen since I couldn't play more than 2 hours at a time, flaws that were there when i still had those same time constraints and still was holding the top DKP spot in a 12 hour a day raiding guild.

If all that is true then you are truly a lucky guy. It's a miracle. Personally, with my schedule, I wouldn't even ask a raiding guild to work around the hours I can play, because I myself don't even know from day to day what they are going to be. I don't think it would be fair to other guildies.


I disagree, because indeed everyone I know that has been raiding for a good chunk of time has 500+ AAs.

If I would have concentrated 100% of my time on the bard don't you kinda think I might have more than just 400? (Actually only dinged #398 last night) The last year or so has been mostly catching the necro and mage up when not doing adventures. Not being able to advance the bard in equipment was why I started playing the necro, and the mage for that matter. So I COULD advance again by doing LDoNs and the like. Surely you don't think that I want to do them by myself? I HAD to do them by myself to get others in my guild interested. Now I'm doing the same thing with DoNs. Most times lately I have enough people interested in joining me that I don't even have to 3-box. That was my goal.

One thing that this entire conversation has taught me is that you are all dedicated and committed. (Except for Zellar. He just needs to BE committed.) I will admit that my opinion is based mostly on those uber-raiders I have encountered in game and may be tainted from those experiences. Thinking about this, and reading some of your posts, I am starting to think that maybe these uber-raiders I have encountered are not the best representation of the group.

Maybe these are just the turds and peckerheads? Maybe. It would be great if it were true. I honestly hope it is.

[Cap'n Azrioth's Parrot]

*squark*

[Rijak]

do you have a magelo blackheart?

[Jebasiz]

Decent grouping necro's are frequently not worth shit in a raid, ect, ect. There are many skills you have to learn before you get into the raiding guild as a full member, and then you wont be kept around long enough to become "reet" if you dont pick up those further skills.



It's a game. It's not brain surgery. I imagine most necro's who have gotten to level 70 with a few hundred AAs could probably learn the tricks of the raiding trade. Zellar did, so pretty much anyone that has fingers to pound on a keyboard probably could learn as well, even if those fingers drag on the ground most of the other time like his.


It's not really something you can argue, because YOU have not done it. We ALL know people of different classes(and our own) that raid at a higher level then those other people in their guild of the same class.
They're typically class leads, or senior in their class. Exceptions happen when newer people step in and just are exceptional from day one, but chances are...they've been raiding for a long time elsewhere.

I don't comment on things I don't have knowledge of, I'd suggest you adopt a similar policy.


raiding necro's have to know lots of strats, above and beyond that of just a normal avg grouping necro. Some of the best grouping warriors i know, fuck up BAD when stepping up to MT for a major raiding guild.

do you have a magelo blackheart? He said he couldn't be bothered maintaining a magelo.

Attend some raids, pick up or otherwise THEN discuss this if you feel the same way. That or STFU. It's that simple, educate yourself first hand..then comment.

Statements like this:


Maybe I've just seen too many posts on various boards by self-proclaimed uber-raiders that talk about how they can be mostly afk or watch a movie during most raids. I know they probably exagerate and that it's not true for the really big targets but...

Are largely due to the MT who has one job and only one job, keep agro on a single mob the entire fight, afk'ing instead of sitting there pounding taunt for 20-25mins during luclin and xegony. They were extremely long encounters. The way agro works now, tanks can't afford to so this anymore. The other members of the raid, can't add anything worthwhile to the raid while afk..atk'ing while afk will whipe a raid now...or atleast get you killed to enrage(if your raid leader finds out). It's not really common nowadays. In short, don't believe everything you hear, you'll be buying a timeshare in the middle of the everglades.

There's as many different people and attitudes in the raiding community as there are anywhere else. Demographics for large numbers of any culture would dictate that there would be..it's an accurate assessment in this case imo.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 31 2005, 09:11 PM
In short, don't believe everything you hear, you'll be buying a timeshare in the middle of the everglades.
I just got a really good deal on waterfront property there!

Wouldn't have been able to afford it, but I just saved a ton of money by switching my car insurance to Geico.

[Brahman]

If all that is true then you are truly a lucky guy. It's a miracle. Personally, with my schedule, I wouldn't even ask a raiding guild to work around the hours I can play, because I myself don't even know from day to day what they are going to be. I don't think it would be fair to other guildies.


it had nothing to do with luck.

I talked to people in EVERY guidl that raided AT ALL, and found out which ones had a flat out REQUIRED attendance of X%. which ones claimed that hard line but didn't back it up once you were a FM. Simply enough, no guild will boot you for being on and off on raids provided a few things...

1. You talk to the raid leader / guild leader / whoever before loggin off everytime

2. You make it clear you must do it for X reason

3. It doesn't become painfully obvious that you are cherry picking raids.

4. You still meet the min %. (and not all guild will boot you for this one)

now... obviously some guilds boot people that fall under the required %, others just have rules where you cann't get loot while under the required %. While i was in that guild I skated that line frequently. OFTEN times i would specifically plan it so i would miss the raids i wanted to be on, and make the raids that were less desirable that night so the guild leader would have NO doubts that indeed i was not cherry picking.

It kinda became the guild joke. litterally i would sit there and make a raid, miss a raid, make a raid miss a raid.

Even with that goign on. I got every flag from that guild myself. No one ever questioned me about my attendance. I had ALOT of fun. untill it folded cause no guild leader can hold 100% attendance ina 12 hour a day raiding guild for long before he snaps...

but thats anouther story !

point is, guilds don't like to advertise they will work around a good player with a bad schedule. because bad players with horrid schedules would take advantage. But you cann't bitch about it if you don't try. No matter how much people like to stress how every person in a raid is important, it really is rare that ONE toon will break a raid just by not being there.

In all my time like taht I can think of VERY few raids where that was the case. Once in NE my guild couldn't do something because it was a long fight and I wasn't on (aka twitch), and xegony which seriously the guild planned around my schedule. course... i was the key :D not that it mattered, as all the officers had my info.

[BlackHeart]

do you have a magelo blackheart?
Not a complete or recent one. Last time I updated was before any DoN equipment. Lately I have so little time to play I just jump online and run a quick adventure or something and log back off. Most of my posting on these and other forums is from work in between putting out fires. (Any IT person knows what I mean by this, they aren't REAL fires)


It's not really something you can argue, because YOU have not done it.

Sure I have. Just not recently. Things have changed, I know, but raiding is raiding. There's no super duper secret decoder ring or x-ray vision glasses that you have to buy to be able to do it. All you need is a little common sense, willingness to listen and learn, and decent skill at the game.

I don't comment on things I don't have knowledge of, I'd suggest you adopt a similar policy.

I'll remember that the next time you make declarations of what you think casuals need and don't need. And the next time you start slinging insults at me.


In short, don't believe everything you hear, you'll be buying a timeshare in the middle of the everglades.

I don't. Not for a minute. That's why I'm arguing with you.


Brahman,

That's all well and good for you, but I can't see it happening for me. My bard has had offers to try out for raiding guilds. I am, at worst, an above average puller with him. Maybe a little better than average considering I can do it all left handed now on a 2nd keyboard. It's just a personal thing. I don't think it would be fair for me to expect the guild and the players in it to work around my schedule. I don't think it would be fair for someone who has been to every raid to not get some upgrade that they have been there for to not get it because I decided to show my happy butt up for once. They would resent me and I would end up doing what I do now on those rare occaisons that my small guild does something raid-like now. I would pass on everything.

And, I don't want to have to feel guilty for not showing up to some guild raid when I don't feel like raiding and just want to hang out and do something brain-dead easy so I can relax. Or I just want to be alone. At best, even if I found that miracle guild that would work with me on all my attendance issues, I would be surprised if I would be willing to dedicate even 40% of my playing time to raiding with them.

If doing it like that works for you then that's great. It's just not my cup of tea.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Aug 1 2005, 08:54 AM
Not a complete or recent one. Last time I updated was before any DoN equipment. Lately I have so little time to play I just jump online and run a quick adventure or something and log back off. Most of my posting on these and other forums is from work in between putting out fires. (Any IT person knows what I mean by this, they aren't REAL fires)
i got ya... it just seems to me that these days you can approach time-geared without raiding... maybe not 10k hp... but as many have mentioned, that is rare even among hardcore raiders (look at eqrankings)

i buff up to around 5.5k hp/mana, and with some work could probably be topping 6k... i honestly don't want/need any more than that

i can do mpg, creator missions, lower tier PoP raids, DoN stuff like emoush, oow named like MSL... all with other non-raiding buddies... i have the feeling that if i was 10k/12k, i'd probably quit in a few weeks 'cause unless i'm raiding qvic/anguish, things would just be too easy

i'd say be careful what you wish for... the level a hard-working casual player can get to these days is just about right these days to keep the encounters they are likely to do challenging

[Unclean]

point is, guilds don't like to advertise they will work around a good player with a bad schedule. because bad players with horrid schedules would take advantage. But you cann't bitch about it if you don't try. No matter how much people like to stress how every person in a raid is important, it really is rare that ONE toon will break a raid just by not being there.

Employers don't advertise that either, for the same reasons. It's true, if you are good enough at what you do, people around you will make allowances.

i buff up to around 5.5k hp/mana, and with some work could probably be topping 6k... i honestly don't want/need any more than that

Amen, Rijak. I feel the same way. For the time I spend on the game, the gear I have seems totally adequate for what I do. Does that mean I don't try to improve my toon? Nope, but I have realistic expectations, and the freedom of nobody telling me when to log on, or how to spend my time in-game, more than makes up for it. To each their own.

[daephyx]

This game rewards progress. Kill your enemies and gain experience; accept quests and complete them for a reward etc. Why should a player unwilling or unable to take on the content that gives the high end equipment receive it? Learn to accept what is within your means and enjoy it, or find a way to progress into raid content.

[BlackHeart]

This game rewards progress. Kill your enemies and gain experience; accept quests and complete them for a reward etc. Why should a player unwilling or unable to take on the content that gives the high end equipment receive it? Learn to accept what is within your means and enjoy it, or find a way to progress into raid content.


I have accepted it. I still think it's broken but I know SOE will never fix it. Just because one has accepted something does not mean they have to LIKE it.

Just like many of you have to accept the fact that I am here on these boards kvetching about the whatever happens to be under my craw at the moment. Doesn't mean you have to like me.

[Azrioth]

I have accepted it. I still think it's broken but I know SOE will never fix it. Just because one has accepted something does not mean they have to LIKE it.

Just like many of you have to accept the fact that I am here on these boards kvetching about the whatever happens to be under my craw at the moment. Doesn't mean you have to like me.

No shit. That's all obvious except nothing is broken about raiders getting better gear.

Go play WoW.

[BlackHeart]

No shit. That's all obvious except nothing is broken about raiders getting better gear.


Nobody said they didn't deserve better gear. It's just a question of how much better. The gap is too big. It's broken.

[Dranul]

Alright. I'll bite, though I'm loathe to do it.

What would be a suitable gap between Teir 15 (Overlord Mata Muram, Vishi) raid drops and casual gear that could be attend with several months of plat farming/exp grouping?

Keep in mind the difference in difficulty of OMM and Bazu Bonesmasher in WoS.

[KB1]

There is roughly 4k hps/mana difference between the number 1 and number 526 (me) Necro according to eqrankings. I'm raiding GoD through Inkutua, and Omens through the RSS Royals and RCoD top two bosses. I still have a few slots with < 100 hps/mana on them. I am also 700 AA behind that person. Personally, I have zero problem with it, and ain't in the least bit jealous or do I feel overlooked. I soloed till I figured out the only way for me to improve was to join a raiding guild. YMMV. It is kind of disheartening to see me at number 526 though, figured I'd be in the top 400 at least sheesh.

[Brahman]

I feel ya man. I went from top 10 on morden to not even the top 25 on povar when they merged : /

oh...

and for the record so EVERYONE knows it... eqrankings is worth about dick because vents is a childish little bitch that bans people from it all the time over camp disputes. there are ALOT of toons missing from it on his own servers. (karana, morden rasp, povar)

EDIT::: for example not so long ago vent wiped on a named in RSS and anouther group came and killed it. He banned the entire group...

EDIT X 2::: he hax too.

[Jebasiz]

That and other people refuse to use it as well. If you have a site like that, for it to be worth anything...it has to have damn close to 100% participation and ZERO bias. EQrankings has/is neither.

[BlackHeart]

What would be a suitable gap between Teir 15 (Overlord Mata Muram, Vishi) raid drops and casual gear that could be attend with several months of plat farming/exp grouping?


That is the root of the problem. Somewhere along the line SOE developers stopped trying. Instead of trying to invent clever new ways, or even re-hash some of their old ways into new ideas, they took the easy way out. They started making new content with the "Tim the Toolman Taylor" philosophy. MORE POWER!!! More mob hitpoints, more damage done by mobs, more done by the raiding toons. So naturally they felt they had to reward raiders who faced 5000+ hitting mobs with items to make facing those mobs a bit easier. Sure, there are a lot of encounters that require some thinking, but you have all said it yourselves, trash mobs hitting for 1200+ and such is a bit over the top.

To answer your question ... a suitable gap would be one that would not make all other content trivial.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Aug 1 2005, 11:03 PM
No shit. That's all obvious except nothing is broken about raiders getting better gear.


Nobody said they didn't deserve better gear. It's just a question of how much better. The gap is too big. It's broken.
"how much better" is the whole point

the casual player does not need 10k hp (even in today's game)... the PoP raider doesn't even need that (caster, that is)... the GoD/OoW raider does

[Jebasiz]

To answer your question ... a suitable gap would be one that would not make all other content trivial.


The Shelby cobra was one of the fastest production cars of it's era. Right now, there's literally dozens of production cars that would smoke it, stock. Even beefed up, most mustangs 5.0's can beat it. It's still sexy but that's all.

It's alot like old content, it used to be the best...and most alluring(IMO) car available...now it's even more unavailable then back when they were being made, but even if you could get one, it'd be for nostalgia..not performance.

Just like cars get faster, perform better..content gets more complicated and hits harder.

It's VERY hard to find a grouping situation where it challenges 6 of the best geared people on their server..or even the top 100 geared people on their server...but that doesn't mean you nerf gear or raid content to match what's groupable. That'd be beyond stupid. The people in top guilds don't play the game to be challenged with 5 other toons while killing the same mobs over and over again, they play to be challenged by raid content.

Most raider MIGHT see the same raid boss of the current expansion 30-50 times. How many times will they or anyone else kill a pyrilean guardian? It's meant to be easy...and it is.

[Azrioth]

I'm sure this has all been said before, but I'm finally jumping into this topic again.

Eq is hard. Maybe, if you can't handle it, you should play WoW? I mean, if people manage to raid and be uber, what's stopping you? Your life, yes?

You want the same stuff without the same effort. Commit and you could be "uber" too. As is, you're not putting in the consecutive amount of time needed.

It's not broken if it doesn't work for you.

... why am I even writing this... :blink:

Oh, right. Post count +1 (which doesn't matter) and maybe Blackheart will finally get it (As if :D , and, even if he does, does it matter?)

I don't think he'll ever get it. Black, you've switched around like the slippery jealous whiner that you are. The pages upon pages of stuff in here shows that.

Hrm...

To paraphrase Heinlein:

"In your case, the trouble with your "right" to uber gear is that that it strongly resembles the "right" of someone to be a concert pianist - but who does not want to practice."

[Brahman]

inferno posts don't +1

[Draknil]

Nicely put Az.

My personal viewpoint is somewhere in the middle. You should be able to buy the stuff but it should be extremely expensive to get. Still have the same effort -reward ratio so to speak. Just so you dont have to rely on others so much, but still it's a social game so it works. If you want to be really good, make some friends and group and raid. Simple.

[Azrioth]

They don't? No wonder.

Lmao @ post counts though.

[Brahman]

how else could i have < 500 here?

[Jebasiz]

Heh, before about page 7..I thought with informative posts and stating reasons why things are the way they are..would lead to a different level of understanding of the game and it's mechanics for a few people. I've gotten several tells, confirming what I've wrote here..so it leads to me to believe that many people, raider and non-raider alike agree. To that end, simply..I'm done arguing with idiots. They simply attempt to bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. That and waste alot of your time.

Enjoy the flaming, I've said what I wanted on here along time ago.

[BlackHeart]

My personal viewpoint is somewhere in the middle. You should be able to buy the stuff but it should be extremely expensive to get. Still have the same effort -reward ratio so to speak.

Careful what you say! This is the same kind of sacreligious thing I have been saying all along. Pretty soon the elitist's will brand you with, "You just want to be uber without working for it"

I've gotten several tells, confirming what I've wrote here..so it leads to me to believe that many people, raider and non-raider alike agree.
How nice. And totally un-provable. It's what they call "heresay" in a courtroom.
Of course, we all know you wouldn't lie or exagerate about a thing like that, you are beyond reproach being uber and all.

Eq is hard. Maybe, if you can't handle it, you should play WoW?
Typical canned answer from someone with no real answer. It's akin to the beligerant parent who screams, "Because I say so!!" And for the record, I can handle it just fine. Some of you seem to not be able to accept the fact that someone might have a different opinion from the normal accepted way and keep pulling ideas out of your collective asses to try and prove me wrong.

"In your case, the trouble with your "right" to uber gear is that that it strongly resembles the "right" of someone to be a concert pianist - but who does not want to practice."
Wrong again bucko. Been taking lessons from Zellar? Bad example. A concert pianist can become one by practicing the piano in two or three 2 hour sessions a day just as easily as someone who practices for 4 or 5 hours straight.

It's VERY hard to find a grouping situation where it challenges 6 of the best geared people on their server..or even the top 100 geared people on their server
There is the million dollar question.... or leads to it. What if it wasn't? What if there WERE challenging encounters for a group of six people in the best gear? What if that was THE ONLY way to get the best gear? I know that many many claim that they don't raid for gear but for the challenge but we all know that's not true for a lot of them. What if the only way to advance your toon and get the uber gear and the uber status was to do it in a group of six, much like the pop trials were only more severe and less forgiving?

Would raiders still raid?

It's just a question. Don't start throwing stones.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Aug 3 2005, 08:35 AM
There is the million dollar question.... or leads to it. What if it wasn't? What if there WERE challenging encounters for a group of six people in the best gear? What if that was THE ONLY way to get the best gear? I know that many many claim that they don't raid for gear but for the challenge but we all know that's not true for a lot of them. What if the only way to advance your toon and get the uber gear and the uber status was to do it in a group of six, much like the pop trials were only more severe and less forgiving?

Would raiders still raid?

It's just a question. Don't start throwing stones.
that's where you keep missing the point... to get the best stuff a solely "grouping" player needs, it is a challenge that takes a good group... DoNs and other instanced zones... named in OoW... do a lot of these over many hours played and you will be an uber-equipped casual player ready to face any situation a single group can take... and some of these will still be very challenging... if you were completely anguish-geared, my bet is that they would probably not be

your argument may have had a bit of weight in the PoP-days, when the gap was huge, and grouping options at L65 with the best gear a casual could get were limited... you had to raid... it's not so anymore... you want a group challenge? work on GoD group trials, DoN progression... maybe even get four groups together and attempt emoush... i bet you could find a lot of interested casuals

what's the point of having raiding gear if you don't need it and it trivalizes the content you do play??? <_<

[BlackHeart]

That wasn't an argument.

That was a hypothetical question.

Just answer the question.

**Edit**

I'll make it more clear...

If raiding were still part of game, even up to the high-level content it is now, BUT the only way to get best of the uber gear is to do it in groups of 6, would raiders still raid?

[Rijak]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Aug 3 2005, 11:52 AM
I'll make it more clear...

If raiding were still part of game, even up to the high-level content it is now, BUT the only way to get best of the uber gear is to do it in groups of 6, would raiders still raid?
it depends on how you define "raiders"... if such a system exisited, most raiding guilds would probably consist on six people :P

i enjoy raiding for it's own sake... i've lead/participated in 4-12 a month for a good year plus and have a total of one raid piece i have ever won (my current neck piece)... so for me, yes... it's fun to work together with other people for the accomplishment alone... loot is way down the list in my book

i still enjoy leading phinny raids, and i can solo him if i want to

some people play for loot, some play for other things... for most it is a mix... but honestly, from all your posts it seems like to you the loot is the only thing that matters <_<

[BlackHeart]

some people play for loot, some play for other things... for most it is a mix...

EVERYONE who plays the game plays for loot in some fashion. Rare exception may be those who already have the best of everything but all they have to do is wait for another expansion. If they say different they are liars or sadly fooling themselves.

There is one simple reason this is so: If you don't get better loot, you can't take on harder targets, and then you can't get better loot to take on even harder targets.. etc etc.. over and over.

It's a viscious circle that never (SOE hopes) ends.

but honestly, from all your posts it seems like to you the loot is the only thing that matters

See above. It only matters because I've been told time and time again that I don't deserve it and I haven't earned it and that I should accept it because that's the way things are. Bull pokie.

I don't care if I have to kill 857 70th level enchanter frogs, 1,456 75th level giants, run from East Freeport to Qeynos and back without using PoK books 147 times and then say, "I love to be spanked" to a female dwarf paladin just to have a 1% chance... then that is still better than the 0% I have now.

No, I repeat for the umpity gazillionth time, I do NOT expect it to be just as easy for me to get any single piece of uber loot then it is for a full-time raider. Just possible. Remotely possible.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Aug 3 2005, 02:37 PM
EVERYONE who plays the game plays for loot in some fashion. Rare exception may be those who already have the best of everything but all they have to do is wait for another expansion. If they say different they are liars or sadly fooling themselves.
i don't... and i'm far from the best in everything :P

i've played casually for 2.5 years (20ish hours a week), and there are plenty of things for me to still do and raid that i haven't done before (i'm talking pre-elemental stuff)... i've gone for months without a single upgrade and it didn't phase me a bit

i asked for your magelo 'cause i figured you must be one of those players who has totally worn out the upgrades a casual player can get... if so, you might have a point... there's nothing wrong with focusing on upgrades... i do enjoy them when i get them, but it doesn't matter to me one bit how that upgrade compares to someone else's... as long as it improves my necro, i'm happy

but even then, the fun for me is doing stuff with other people ingame... loot is purely icing on the cake for me, whether you wanna except that or not (and i am far from the only one like that)... monday i helped some friends get epic drops in Fear, last night it was Sky... thursday i'm helping some get Emp Keys with my rogue... good people, good times, no loot or even xp for that matter, but i enjoy it http://home.comcast.net/~rijak/shrug.gif

[Unclean]

i enjoy raiding for it's own sake... i've lead/participated in 4-12 a month for a good year plus and have a total of one raid piece i have ever won (my current neck piece)... so for me, yes... it's fun to work together with other people for the accomplishment alone... loot is way down the list in my book

Sony didn't really think PoP through IMHO. That's about the time most of my friends retired. The casual players retired because they couldn't our wouldn't advance through raiding, and the raiders retired because there was nothing left to achieve. The game is much better balanced now.

Loot is way down the list in my book as well. Sure, I won't turn away gear upgrades, but it's not the focus of my play time. Not everyone plays for loot. For us, it's a good way to have hubby and wife time, along with our other hobbies.

[Azrioth]

Once again, I will try to explain.

It's not a canned answer, and it *is* a real answer.

Another example for you. You're playing soccer, but you want to use your hands, because, for whatever reason, you can't/won't use your feet. I suggest basketball.

No, it is not akin to a parent who screams, "Because I say so!" - You're not understanding what I'm telling you.

I accept the fact that you have a different opinion.

I am not pulling 'ideas' out of my ass to *try* and prove you wrong.

You're wrong. EQ should not change to make things easier or possible for you.

No, I was not wrong about a pianist. You want EQ to fit your needs. You are unwilling and/or incapable of exerting the effort needing to get you what you want.

Instead, you want the effort needed to change into something you can do. This does not mean EQ is broken.

You want EQ to change to meet your needs. It is not broken, however.

The whole point with a MMoRPG is to interact with other people. Hence, raids for best gear.

Maybe you'd like Morrowind?

[Mallakith]

omg i go away for a coupla days and you start a new argument without the malla...

Sooooo the gist (and i cant be arsed reading all 13 pages so i skimmed) Raiding players dont deserve better gear than casual players, if all gear was freely available would ppl raid and Jebs an arrogant fewl who doesnt know anything about the game :) ?

Lets start at the start:

You kill the hardest mob you deserve the best gear. That in my eyes is indisputable (even by blackheart). IS there such a disparity between gear? I picked up a quest cloak in NC with improved damage 5 and 100 odd hps mana just from kiting murkgliders for 4 levels, Tier 1 omens armour is equivalent to elemental and is all solo or 1 groupable. I dont think there is such a big gap if you are willing to work and find the gear.

2nd Point:

YES

People would still raid because this is a Fantasy Roleplay Game and through it most players at one time or another want to kill a dragon. Through this logic people would still raid to kill the big mobs but I WILL admit it would probably not be as frequent... however the gear isnt available so raiding guilds exist.

Last Point:

Really just to annoy Jeb :) Although Ive known him longer than you Blackheart and I know who Id prefer to start a discussion with.

In Conclusion:

If you want the top gear you have to work for it. I am in no way a "loot whore" I am in a raiding guild on Antonious Bayle and just managed to upgrade my Vorshar's Slippers of the Blight for Nolaen's Lifereaper Sandals (Qvic Shoes Blacky).

Let me give u a run down of the past month or so in Inktuta for Midwinter to try and demonstrate what ACTUALLY happens in raid guilds (its not all loot farming boy).

Week 1

Monday got through trash to kelekdrix wiped tried 2 - 3 times then logged
Friday through trash to Kelekdrix killed in 9 mins with roughly half the guild dying wiped on stonemites

Week 2
Monday Through Kelekdrix less deaths wiped on stonemites (I was last man standing (well lying down)
Friday Through Kelekdrix got the hang of her now stonemites close to wipe but completed 3 golems got into camp and aoe rampage wiped raid

Week 3
Monday cooking on calor now straight to stonemites with no problem golems down wiped on cursecallers
Friday wiped on curescallers

Week 4
Monday wiped on Curecallers
Friday Beat Cursecallers Wiped on Noqufiel

Week 5
Monday wiped on Cursecallers
Friday Beat Cursecallers ran out of time before engaging noqufiel.

Out of this time (6 hours roughly) there were on average 3 raid drops (and a shit load of ffa augments) Imagine how you would feel if your casual mob despawned just as you were about to engage it!

For a month we have worked together at this raid and are so close to completing it everyone in the guild is excited. THAT is why people raid to accomplish something that looks impossible.

My old guild killed Emperor Ssra sure we werent even close to being the first guild to do it but we WERE the first pure dark team guild to succeed that meant as much to us as im sure Vish meant to the first guild per server to get the kill.

Acheivement against the odds is what keeps ppl playing and it would soon get dull if everyone had full anguish gear.

Woo i like a good argument )

PS Unclean I would agree and disagree.. I think PoP was well thought out, what I DONT think SOE did was consider what to do with ppl who didnt progress "correctly". They seem to have managed to incorporate feedback into backflag "quests" now which eases some of the load on NEEDING flags. (I.E a time guild should no longer "require" all pop flags as it is fairly easy to flag apps in pase 3).

Personally the progressive nature of PoP was its strength (But I did shawl and ring quests so im a mug for that sort of stuff!)

[BlackHeart]

Maybe you'd like Morrowind?

Still, you have no ideas to fix what is broken. All you can say is, "Norrath, ... Love it or leave it."

I am not pulling 'ideas' out of my ass to *try* and prove you wrong.

*sigh* Obviously you wouldn't know it if you were by the following shining example...

Another example for you. You're playing soccer, but you want to use your hands, because, for whatever reason, you can't/won't use your feet. I suggest basketball.

Please try harder.
A better example would be that I'm playing soccer. I work hard while I'm playing. But, the team equipment manager won't give me a team jersey becaue I have asthma and can only play in 30 minute stints before I need a breather instead of an hour at a time. The team can't win without me (just like EQ cannot survive without casuals) But, only those players who can stay on the field for at least an hour get the jerseys. Does not matter if those players are good or bad, they get the jerseys.


Sooooo the gist (and i cant be arsed reading all 13 pages so i skimmed) Raiding players dont deserve better gear than casual players, if all gear was freely available would ppl raid and Jebs an arrogant fewl who doesnt know anything about the game

Wrong, wrong and wrong. Strike three. You're out. Next time... be arsed. Less chance of being an arse that way.


Woo i like a good argument )

Doesn't everyone? Too bad this one stopped being good a long time ago when all those with decent debate skills quit posting.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jul 30 2005, 07:58 AM
quoted, because you totally ignored it Blackheart, i do hope you will respond rather than blow it off.


Don't wait on that. He just skips over stuff that he'd rather not/can't address.
you're right jeb :P

[Zeller TP]

Originally posted by Rijak+Aug 4 2005, 06:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rijak @ Aug 4 2005, 06:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Jebasiz@Jul 30 2005, 07:58 AM
quoted, because you totally ignored it Blackheart, i do hope you will respond rather than blow it off.


Don't wait on that. He just skips over stuff that he'd rather not/can't address.
you're right jeb :P[/b][/quote]
Exactly. I had to admit this to myself several pages ago. If he can't argue a point, he skips it or deletes the context around it to obscure the meaning. I suggest you just stop posting.

[Brahman]

Please try harder.
A better example would be that I'm playing soccer. I work hard while I'm playing. But, the team equipment manager won't give me a team jersey becaue I have asthma and can only play in 30 minute stints before I need a breather instead of an hour at a time. The team can't win without me (just like EQ cannot survive without casuals) But, only those players who can stay on the field for at least an hour get the jerseys. Does not matter if those players are good or bad, they get the jerseys.


you are really tallented at making examples that totally destroy your argument.

ok, a "jersey" is FAR from the difference from a 4k necro and a 10k necro. a more acurate example is a local unpaid league, verses the pros.

you WILL NOT FIND a pro athlete that can not stay on the field due to an illness, if you do, he wont be there long enough to make the big bux (get the 10k hps).

[BlackHeart]

Exactly. I had to admit this to myself several pages ago. If he can't argue a point, he skips it or deletes the context around it to obscure the meaning. I suggest you just stop posting.

I am sorry to confuse you Zellar. But it is just so easy to do! What is obscure and out of context to you is simple logic to most rational thinking poeple with even half a brain. I can't answer every post or every hair-brained scheme you come up with. I do have to get some work done from time to time.

Remember my analogy of cow patties in a field? After awhile it gets a little silly to keep bending over just to fling them across the road. And it does very little good. There are always more cows that have to poop.

Now is that crystal clear enough for you or would like for me to somehow come up with a way to write it down for you with crayons on the internet and draw you some pretty pictures?

I shouldn't have to repeat myself. but I said,

If they say different they are liars or sadly fooling themselves


Giving him the benefit of the doubt, it Sounds to me like Rijak is the latter.

While it may be true that from time to time people will grow stagnant and want to do nothing for awhile but hang out, it is still true that...
EVERYONE who plays the game plays for loot in some fashion
If this were not true then Rijak would still be running around in cloth armor and carrying a cracked staff which I doubt very much he is.

I have a magelo, but it has not been updated since early June. When I have free computer time lately I usually spend that time in the game. I won't do the premium thing because I am a little paranoid (ok A LOT) about EQ's EULA especially when I read things like...


Thus, both ShowEQ and MacroQuest violate the EULA.

Magelo basic does not violate it, but Magelo Premium (the collector) does violate the EULA (and this was confirmed by Devs at Summit - Magelo Premium does violate the EULA).


I would love to believe that it is safe to use because it sounds really cool, but so far I am not convinced enough to make it worth while to me to risk it. I don't have a big enough ego to care what other people think about my equipment. But, if it will make you feel better I will TRY to update my generic one tonight and post a link here tommorow. I can't see how it matters though.


ok, a "jersey" is FAR from the difference from a 4k necro and a 10k necro. a more acurate example is a local unpaid league, verses the pros.


you WILL NOT FIND a pro athlete that can not stay on the field due to an illness

Don't think I ever said I wanted to be a 10k hp necro. I did say I wanted a small chance at uber loot.

From http://www.lung.ca/asthma/exercise/athletes.html

What do the following athletes have in common?

Renn Critchlow (1991 world champion kayaker from Ontario)
Peter Maher (Olympic Marathoner)
Curt Harnett (Olympic cyclist and silver medalist from Ontario)
Charmain Crooks (Olympic runner and silver medalist from Vancouver)
Joan Benoit (womens marathon champion)
Susan Auch (Canadian Speed Skater)
Jackie Joyner-Kersee (Olympic double gold medalist in track and field - heptathlon in the 1988 Olympics won 7,291 points and set a world record)
Bill Koch (first American to win World Cup in cross-country skiing)
Rick Demont (gold medalist swimmer)
Paul Bennett (Blue Bombers football Hall of Famer)

Answer: They all have asthma!


True, that not many of these are pro athlete's but ...

[Rijak]

Originally posted by BlackHeart+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BlackHeart)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>While it may be true that from time to time people will grow stagnant and want to do nothing for awhile but hang out, it is still true that...

<!--QuoteBegin-BlackHeart
EVERYONE who plays the game plays for loot in some fashion

If this were not true then Rijak would still be running around in cloth armor and carrying a cracked staff which I doubt very much he is.[/b][/quote]

the point is what motivates one to play... my motivation is enjoying other player's company, call it stagnant if you want, for me it's the only reason i play... if it was in it "just for the loot" why play with other people at all? why spend 80% of my time online doing stuff with other people that doesn't get me any of this "loot" that i really want deep down inside but delude myself from admitting :P

if you wanna get technical... sure, everyone plays for loot in some fashion... but you seem to fashion it a hell of a lot more than most

loot upgrades are nice and i take 'em when they come along, but my game time doesn't revolve around it... i prefer the challenge and accomplishment of encounters... right now i've been working with some friends on raiding our way to the elementals... realistically, with the way things are today, there won't be a single upgrade for any of us along the way... but the accomplishment of beating new encounters is enough

the kind of upgrades you are whining about not being able to acquire are completely unnecessary for the type of encounters a non-raider is going to participate in... unless you want to make those encounters completely trivial (i.e. boring)

and even if it HAS TO BE ABOUT LOOT (caps for emphasis) stop looking at numbers and look at accomplishment... a casual player getting a +150 hp/mana item is just as big of an accomplishment as a raider getting a +350 hp/mana item, and only a fool would diminish his own accomplishments because they aren't "the best"

[Jebasiz]

The only things loot ensures is that mobs die repeatedly and the next mobs/mob sets can be made more difficult.

Congrats malla..you're getting close to txevu!(which means tacvi is sooooooooooooon). Our runs were similar, but we didn't whipe a 2nd time on cursecallers...and the first time we had alot of "erm ya, ok..what the fuck do we do nows?"

[Brahman]

black heart, can you tell me which of those players had it so bad that they could not play to the same level as the other athletes pls?

none of them.

thank you.

[Azrioth]

Blackheart, you simply do not understand.

You're making everything into some sort of time debate, when it's not really about that at all.

You are either unable or unwilling to put in the effort required to acquire that which you want.

This does not mean that the game should change. It should not. Your arguements make no sense no matter which viewpoint is used (well, except "selfishness"), much less a roleplaying one.

Knights that gang up and spend the time (hours) to kill dragons get better stuff than a peasant who goes out for 15 (or whatever it is, shorter than the time required to kill the dragon) minute stints of orc killing or whatever.

And no, turning "my example" into "your example" doesn't do you any good.

You either twist or ignore all valid points - you are either blind, stupid, stubborn, or a combination of the above.

You are flat wrong, the only reason I keep posting is to help you understand - every other person in this thread has tried and this should've ended pages ago.

What you fail to realize is that, for many, many things, consecutive effort is required. I cannot describe this eventuality with any more simplicity than that.

Jobs, relationships, life - consecutive effort. And so it is with EQ.

Games like WoW or Morrowind will give you what you want - I'm honest when I suggest these to you, it's not some sort of put down. You seem very irrational and dissatisfied with "your lot" in EQ - to the point of your somewhat psychotic, jealous paranoid attitude - as many others have mentioned.

/sigh... no doubt more of this drama is inc...

[Jebasiz]

Blackheart, you simply do not understand.
He's also not listening. I honestly don't know why I bothered, I'm not anymore. I hope other people stop as well.

[Zeller TP]

Originally posted by Azrioth@Aug 4 2005, 07:00 PM
You either twist or ignore all valid points - you are either blind, stupid, stubborn, or a combination of the above.
Yes, he does. And yes, he is.

You are flat wrong, the only reason I keep posting is to help you understand - every other person in this thread has tried and this should've ended pages ago.
Blackheart has to have the last word. And he will never admit that he is in any way wrong about anything. So if people keep trying to make him "understand", this thread will continue ad infinitum.

[Azrioth]

Yeah, black is very "parental" in that he has to be right, has to have the last word, and younger people, because they are young, cannot possibly have anything of worth to say, because, as we all know, with age comes intelligence and wisdom and whatnot...

But still, gotta try to help people, right?

[Jebasiz]

He doesn't want your help, he wants people to argue with. I'm pretty sure nothing more, nothing less. He' bored and to cheap to buy a newspaper to entertain himself.

[BlackHeart]

black heart, can you tell me which of those players had it so bad that they could not play to the same level as the other athletes pls?

Never had asthma? Exceptions have to be made. There are pro baseball, football, and basketball players who have asthma and other ailments, whose teams make special arrangements for. If a guy has 103 mph fastball, the coach is gonna find a way to work around it and get the guy in the ballgame even if he can only pitch an inning or two at a time.


Blackheart, you simply do not understand.

And I will never understand how when something is broken some people choose to ignore it or twist the truth of its brokeness just because it profits them.

You keep speculating about what you think I think and its what keeps this thread going. I understand PERFECTLY that people who raid should get better equipment. My major complaint is the OVERWHELMING GAP in that equipment and what is available to the common casual player. That gap is so very HUGE that all other content becomes trivial to the raider. THAT Shuts off big chunks of the game to not only those raiders who cannot be bothered going "slumming" in those zones anymore, but it also closes those zones to people who could and would make use of those zones at times because of the raiders who DO go "slumming" for loot or whatever other reason, because there is no way a casual can compete with the over-geared raider in that situation. Admittedly, this is getting better with so many instanced zones nowadays but it is still there.

Raiders argue that they deserve the vastly overpowered gear because of the time they put in. I don't agree. They do deserve better gear, but they do NOT deserve gear so vastly superior that it breaks the game. If THEY deserve gear so game-breaking then so does everyone else that puts sufficient time and effort into their toon.

KEY WORDS THAT MOST OF YOU WILL CHOOSE TO IGNORE: Suffcient time.

The whole thing IS BROKEN, or at least very badly bent. If EQ is gonna be a Monty Haul type of game then why draw the line at just raiders? Why not let everyone have outrageous items? Why not go ahead and just sell them for RL cash? (Please no!) What is SOE thinking? Are they thinking, "Well, raiders will just burn out and move on to the next game anyway so why not give them all kinds of great gear to keep them happy (and paying us) as long as possible? Lets Milk it!!! And, this will also keep all the casuals interested (and sending in the $12.50 a month) because they will always look forward to someday getting that UBER equipment."

There is just something a little twisted about that. With this line of thinking they have created such a gap that they have kinda defeated the whole idea of a Multi-player game because the two (casuals and raiders) very rarely even so much as see each other much less adventure together. I can't blame raiders for this, why would they WANT to go "slumming" with casuals when there is nothing in it for them. Why would Ted Turner or Donald Trump want to hang out with Joe the barber or Jake the plummer? It would do nothing but make them burn out and quit the game even sooner.

I know SOE is a business and I know they are in it for the money but I just think they could've found a better way with a little common sense and forethought. But, they jumped to conclusions about what people wanted and made some bad choices, and have been doing little else but trying to stop the dam leaks with duct tape and bubble gum ever since.


He doesn't want your help

Damn straight I don't. Nor do I need it.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Aug 5 2005, 03:38 PM
Raiders argue that they deserve the vastly overpowered gear because of the time they put in. I don't agree. They do deserve better gear, but they do NOT deserve gear so vastly superior that it breaks the game. If THEY deserve gear so game-breaking then so does everyone else that puts sufficient time and effort into their toon.
simply put, it's not a matter of "deserve", and maybe that's what raises your ire :P

the type of game the raiders play necessitates the gear they get... and yes, it trivializes other content... one solution would be a naggy-type banishing of post-65 toons on some old-world mobs... another might be zones that can't be accessed post-65... but as you say, loot these days makes farming old world mobs almost pointless for the raider... and the spawn times in new expansions makes competition less fierce

the type of game the casual player plays necessitates the restriction on how good their gear can get... it's that simple... 10k hp is nearly pointless for a non-raider... i guess you could design bosses that do a shitload of damage but have 1/10th the hp of a modern day raiding boss... but i can't see how that would make it any more challenging... it would just change the nature of the challenges that already exist

the game you envision for raiders (if they did not get such gear upgrades) would be like Emperor Ssra x1000... boss mobs with low damage output and 1,000,000,000,000 HP that 54 raiders would fight for three hours... they had to create the gap to keep things interesting

[Jebasiz]

Why do you bother?

[Azrioth]

Yeah I'm done.

No reason to pwn 2x.

[Xelgadis]

Some people simply insist on having the last word in an argument, even moreso when they clearly have no argument that they can support.

I motion that we just lock this topic and move on with our lives. If 14 pages hasn't enlightened people, 14 more will have much the same outcome.

[BlackHeart]

...when they clearly have no argument that they can support.

Yet, you still ignore the points I have made. Pretending they are not there does not make them go away. Sorry.



I motion that we just lock this topic and move on with our lives. If 14 pages hasn't enlightened people, 14 more will have much the same outcome.

Translation: I know BlackHeart is right and the only thing I can do now is ignore his questions and insult him hoping he will go away. See? I can pull wild speculations out of my ass too!


Yeah I'm done.

Good, you never really got started.

No reason to pwn 2x.

To pwn someone you must first post fact based on clear evidence proven without a doubt. Not the fiction and fairy tales you have come up with to give you and your cronies virtual hardons. You must answer the questions and not ignore them or re-word them or throw temper tantrums and resort to name calling just because you can't answer them.

Rijak, cudos to you. At least you tried. A coward you are not.


the game you envision for raiders (if they did not get such gear upgrades) would be like Emperor Ssra x1000... boss mobs with low damage output and 1,000,000,000,000 HP that 54 raiders would fight for three hours... they had to create the gap to keep things interesting

Please explain why you think something along this line of thinking would be a bad thing.

[Dranul]

Why are three hour encounters bad? Because fighting a single mob for three hours isn't fun? Hm? Does that sound like fun to you, BH? A mind numbing encounter that just keeps going and going and going? You want every raid encounter to be like *that*? And then you want the loot to be only a small upgrade from casual encounters?

Do you not only have no concept of what raiding actually is but also no concept of what having *fun* actually is? Rijak made the point that gear isn't the reason why you play an online game; you play it to enjoy the human interaction. Think of it as hooking up a game console to the TV and playing with your 50 closest friends. Jebasiz made the point that if you had gear that drops from raid encounters, the casual encounters become much less fun. Which you countered with, "Why should raid gear trivialize casual content?" Everything is trivialized by the next expansion, and everything is trivialized by the biggest and greatest gear there is. That's how life works. The computer I'm typing on now is better than the computer I typed on when I was a little kid. College is more challenging than multication tables. Etc.

Honestly, I can sypmathize with you. I know that sounds weird from the one person that started this flame fest, and one of the more fervent ones at that, but I have friends who are just breaking into Ssra, working on VT. If I could give them the Teir 1 or 2 PoP drops I have in my bank, I would, because I'd like to help them. I've helped one person get four shards, even though I already have my VT key. I've sent tells asking if anyone needed the AC shard as I camped the named there for baz trading. I sympathize because I wish I *could* help them get better gear quickly and easily. But better gear doesn't come quickly and easily, because that's not how a captilist society works; you get better things when you work harder. The time investment isn't the only factor; raid encounters, from mobs that hit like trucks to mobs lik Emp Ssra, are always harder than group encounters. Even if you had to kill one million trash mobs in MPG to get a 1% chance of getting an item with 200 hp, it's still not a fair comparison to wiping fives times on a raid and finally getting it right (A quick note: two or three items drop per boss. It takes a long time to fully gear yourself with a certain Teir of items.).

But I honestly do not think you're serious with your argument. I think you're here to push peoples' buttons. Can you honestly point to any post from Jebasiz, not including posts in the Inferno, where he was beligerent or condescending? He has been nothing but helpful to this community, and he hardly waves his raid gear in our faces. If he or Xelgadis said things like, "Back when I bothered to zone into Tranq, I exped at Fire. But then you'd have to be Fire flagged, which is pretty ho-hum for me, but out of reach for you." then I could see where you're pissed off. But if they don't have useful and helpful information, they simply don't post. Yet, you targetted Jebasiz, from the get go. I don't know if it's envy or malice or if you just like getting people worked up, but there's no wholly pure intent behind your arguments, BH.

I'm sorry for posting on this thread once again, I really am. This is the last straw for me though, and I hope it's the last straw for everyone else, even when BH posts his reply.

[UsulDaNeriak]

honestly guys, cant wt stop that shit?


http://hometown.aol.de/Neriaknecguild/threadsucks.gif

[Rijak]

i agree... the horse has been beaten long enough

http://www.fourteenballstoy.co.uk/flogger350x450.jpg

[Unclean]

This thread is like Old Yeller. It's time for Pa to take him out behind the wood shed and end his suffering.

[Azrioth]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/Azrioth/Pwn.jpg

[Mallakith]

pa shot old yeller?

omg NOW i get it

[Schaeffer]

DIE THREAD DIE!!!


http://www.flashplayer.com/forum/images/smilies/russian_roulette.gif

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Aug 6 2005, 01:58 PM

...when they clearly have no argument that they can support.

Yet, you still ignore the points I have made. Pretending they are not there does not make them go away. Sorry.



I motion that we just lock this topic and move on with our lives. If 14 pages hasn't enlightened people, 14 more will have much the same outcome.

Translation: I know BlackHeart is right and the only thing I can do now is ignore his questions and insult him hoping he will go away. See? I can pull wild speculations out of my ass too!
What points of yours am I ignoring? I never gave a flying fuck what you had to say to begin with. If you look back, it was um.. page 9 when I made my first post after you hijacked this dead thread. My whole what? 2? posts, before I simply said that this thread should be locked, basically consisted of images denoting that you're an idiot who needs to simply shut the fuck up and let this shit rest.

None of us care how "right" you think you are. Simple fact is: when you have zero support and zero argument that you can defend, that's a good sign that you should just back down and shut up. You made your points, counterpoints have disproven your points- at that point, you could have saved face and just shut up. But then you decided to keep pressing it, throwing more invalid points out, and avoiding the points of others altogether as you went into a mode of being dictionary-boy. Look at it from a perspective a little broader than your own narrow one, do you see that you have absolutely no support? Perhaps backing down, given that startling piece of information would be in order ("oh my god, is it that simple Xel? You mean I can just shut the fuck up and move on with my life rather than continue this worthless drivel of an argument?" Yes it is :rolleyes:).

Oh, and if I "knew Blackheart was right", would I not be agreeing with that dumbass rather than disagreeing wth him? Funny how that works.

[Jebasiz]

I don't care what everyone else says, they're all wrong! I'm right! The earth is fucking flat!

[Brahman]

Never had asthma? Exceptions have to be made. There are pro baseball, football, and basketball players who have asthma and other ailments, whose teams make special arrangements for. If a guy has 103 mph fastball, the coach is gonna find a way to work around it and get the guy in the ballgame even if he can only pitch an inning or two at a time.

family members have it. you failed to name one of those athlets that special arangments had to be made for...

oh... and everyoen in my family with it has VERY mild cases and for all noticeable purposes you would never know it.

my brother played lots of sports in HS, and never needed special arangments...

so again i ask, CAN YOU NAME SOMEONE THAT DOES?

[Jebasiz]

F L A T !

[Brahman]

stfu its obviously a 2d hexagon.

[Schaeffer]

PARABOLA

[Unclean]

But, but, I thought the earth was composed of bitmapped polygons.

Oh, and YOU ARE ALL IDIOTS FOR NOT USING THE JESTERS.

[Warspite]

BANANA SHAPED!

* Yay! 16 pages! I suck!

[Befly]

lmao you took the time to find the lyrics to that song

[Brahman]

Never had asthma? Exceptions have to be made. There are pro baseball, football, and basketball players who have asthma and other ailments, whose teams make special arrangements for. If a guy has 103 mph fastball, the coach is gonna find a way to work around it and get the guy in the ballgame even if he can only pitch an inning or two at a time.

i would also like to point out, you have defeated yourself here, because you said you were unwilling to have people make the same arangments for you.

so...

even though you could raid, you CHOOSE NOT TO.

finally...

its not broken, its how they want it.

[Jebasiz]

FLAT I SAY!

[Veratu]

Actually it's bowl shaped, just ask the Giant flying spaghetti monster. Now stop this banter or feel the wrath of his noodley appendage!

V

[Brahman]

THE POST OFFICE IS BROKEN AS I AM UNABLE TO GET THERE BEFORE THEY CLOSE!!!!!!!!!!!

BROKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Warspite]

Bob Dobbs (http://www.subgenius.com/) is the one true God! Follow him and know SLACK!

You have been warned!

[Unclean]

I thought God was a flying spaghetti monster. Just when I think that I have it figured out, here comes bob.

Earlier I shouted "why have you forsaken me, dog?" but she just looked up at me long enough to see if I had bacon in my hands and then went to back to sleep on the A/C vent.

[Xelgadis]

The world is in the shape of a disc, which in turn sits on the backs of 4 giant elephants, which stand on the back of a giant space turtle which floats through space. The only thing we must worry about in our perfect little world... is the space turtle male or female? That will come into play when the turtle finds a mate...

[Jebasiz]

FLAT!

[Felicite]

Bedevere: "...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped."
Arthur: "This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes."

See.. Warspite and I are the same person.

[UsulDaNeriak]

Originally posted by Xelgadis@Aug 10 2005, 04:35 AM
The world is in the shape of a disc, which in turn sits on the backs of 4 giant elephants, which stand on the back of a giant space turtle which floats through space. The only thing we must worry about in our perfect little world... is the space turtle male or female? That will come into play when the turtle finds a mate...
actually, this question was already answered in one of Terry Prattchets later but still genious novels.

the only thing, we know for sure is, that the answer to all our questions will be: 42

but thats another story)

and yes, /agree: this damn world is f.. flat!
like the chick, we will finally marry.

Usul

PS: actually a 16 page long thread about shit isnt too bad. i guess necrotalk inferno is improving). slowly, but in the right direction :wub:

[Azrioth]

Wyrd Sisters = book that I thought no one else read...

[Xelgadis]

All of his books are great. But yeah, that one stands out in my mind as one of his best.


Edit: Ping! 17 pages!

[Xislaben]

So if for some reason I took 6 months off (I'm not going to unless the fuz discovers my alias) can I rest asured that this thread will still be running?

[Schaeffer]

For 50 bucks I'll keep it running...

[Jebasiz]

I heard you do "alot" for $50!

[Brahman]

only 7 pages here...

[KB1]

Originally posted by Brahman@Aug 11 2005, 11:29 PM
only 7 pages here...
What are you talking about 7 pages?

[Azrioth]

Brah and I can handle 40 per page, see.

Our uber l337 h4><0r sk1ll5 allow us to change that, y'see.

[KB1]

Umm, Brahman, why the hell does it say I am banned from eqnecro? I know I called you a silly gnome a lot, but sheesh.

[KB1]

And an IP ban at that?

[Azrioth]

KB is Tauruse???

[KB1]

Not even close, I'm back, Gnome 1 had no clue, so he says..

[KB1]

Ahh gnome 1 tells me there was another Tauruse attack apparently, I actually went out tonite, and that gnome number 2 banned me, by mistake......