Guild home pages and what they post

[Jebasiz]

http://www.hateguild.net

Now for those of you who don't know. Tacvi is an instanced raid zone in GoD. It has several named, and a few mastruq's who aren't named but hit ungodly hard. There really isn't any trash, and every mob is pretty significant to engage(atleast at first). It's cool that Aryse's old guild killed Tunat(he's the boss of GoD and Tacvi) he's quite an accomplishment to say the least.

I just don't know why they'd post a screenshot of them having 55 people in a zone capped at 54. Either they're hacking and don't care who knows, or they rezzed someone in that was previously removed from the expedition and hadn't been kicked by the zone yet. Kinda curious as to why a guild would post a SS that would draw into question their kill...

Sorry Aryse, I know you have friends there...but it's not just them, it's just really really noticable there.

Alot of "uber" guilds post pics or have "fucking owned" or "fucking dead" or NC-17 guildchat screenies posted on their webpages. Kinda just wondering why people are trying so hard to show everyone else how obnoxious they are.

I post some things here that I know I shouldn't. I even let out a "fuck you" every now and then...but seriously some of the web writers for guilds should be ashamed at how they represent the members of their guild(IMO).

Comments?

[Felicite]

It might have been a GM.. I know on FV the Top Guilds ™ have had watchers on some Top Targets ™ at times.

Everyone has to wave their e-penis.. and call it recruiting. Fire and Fury, which would almost be a respectable guild on a real server, actually had a comic on their home page showing how their e-penis had swelled beyond a single frame of the comic.

And I, The Archivist, failed to make a copy. *cries*

[Aldmare]

Just irritating to read their site, but in any case, would it be wrong to assume that the content on that page communicates the mentality of the people in guild? I would find it hard to respect the guild as a whole, not to mention be kind of ashamed of the way my guild was presented to the community. But what do I know about the pvp community servers anyhow :unsure:

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Aug 23 2005, 09:33 AM
I just don't know why they'd post a screenshot of them having 55 people in a zone capped at 54.
you counted 'em all!?! :blink:

a bit on the childish side, but i gave up on letting that kinda stuff bother me a while back... and some of it can be pretty funny at times too :P

fact is, while there are many "mature" players... there are also many in there teens, and they often tend to be the ones with the free time to put into the hardcore raiding guilds (not starting a debate here about time and raiding... just stating a fact ;) ) ... and we all remember our rebellious teen years... fuck this, fuck that, 'n all that good stuff

i've seen entire guilds that simply get their kicks out of being pricks (sometimes that can be fun too, though i'm not personally that good at it... unless you disagree with me, as one guildie told me <_< ) ... in pvp i'd imagine it could fit right in

[Zeller TP]

He didn't count them. They posted a screenshot of a /who showing 55 people in the zone.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Zeller TP@Aug 23 2005, 12:36 PM
He didn't count them. They posted a screenshot of a /who showing 55 people in the zone.
okay... i feel better now (i was having a very hard time and gave up)

[Azrioth]

Stuff like this doesn't bother me. I mean, I see where you're coming from, but showy stuff like this is akin to the football player's dancing or doing backflips - it's hard content and I understand "Muwahaha we PWNED THE FUCKER" sort of thing.

Hotshot people act like that... it's cool with me.

[Xelgadis]

How people choose to act in their guild is one thing. However, acting like that on a guild's news page (which is viewable by public eyes) is another. If nothing else, "put on a pretty face for the public", it's really unprofessional and quite childish to be dropping language like that in that setting. It's not just Hate however, Sovereign did that (they moved to WoW heh) among a host of other guilds.

[Xelgadis]

I don't use my sig on my Guild's forums, nor do I make news posts. May I also remind everyone that I did remove it once because of it's content, popular demand requested that I bring it back.

Pot, meet Kettle, Black.

[Xislaben]

If you camp, and are then removed from the expidition or whatever, and then camp back in, are you instantly booted?

If your corpse is there (nd you've been removed from the expiedition) and you're rezzed are you instantly booted?

If not, say you get the 2 minute warning, then one strategy may be cothing people to the end mob, camping them, and having them log in for 2min for full burn at some point. Maybe it's not 'fair', but hey mechanics are what they are, use them to whatever advantage you can.

[Azrioth]

Pot, meet Kettle, Black.

?

[Dranul]

Could have been a game "hic up" and whoever posted the screenie thought it was funny. I can't think of something off the top of my head, but I've run across a few things that made me tilt my head to the side and say, "Huh". Someone here (Fayd?) has a screenie of their mount being summoned, for example. Allakhazam had a screenie of someone's mount turning on the owner, iirc.

As for lewd language on a guild news post; generally, the only people that see that are potential applicants and those already in guild. Applicants we'll probably be more concerned with meeting requirements, posting on the forums, and are already very familiar with the guild's reputation/behavior. For guildies, nothing brings a smile to a person's face when they remember that really tense encounter that they just barely won and let out a "Fuck yeah!" or something like that.

However, overly abrasive posts, such as that wonderful description about Yar'lir, are out of hand. This might be a PvP culture thing, as I haven't seen sites like the from guilds on either Mith Marr-Saryrn, unless it was posted as satire of guilds that do that seriously.

[Aryse Andenter]

Hate actually has extraordinarily strict no hacking/no exploits rules as a guild. I would be willing to bet that they are the guild who sticks to the rules most strictly across all servers, especially if you are considering exploits.

Hate has some members who have previously hacked on their own time (and probably still do) but there is crazy strict rules when it comes to it on raids, and those who do it on their own time had better be damn subtle about it. The hacking I have seen on a blue server is unbelievably rampant and obvious. There just isn't the competition between players and the animosity needed to keep hacking down.



My guess is that it was simply someone being rezzed back in who had been booted from the expedition.
When it comes to new flagging there are a lot of seniority vs. needed class issues. Hate has a large guild roster, and I have seen more than double the amount of allowed players show up for raids quite often. The officers then get to spend a fun raid constantly subbing people in and out as the arguments over most DKP and seniority and use to the guild and high attendance and so on rage. It is normal to see more than the allowed members in a zone, especially after a final boss kill. And it's not even odd to post a screenshot of it... you'll note the teasing of different players about being the extra in the replies.

After all, Hate was frequently seeing 76 people back in Time... it can take minutes to get kicked from a zone and the invites and maneuverings of people is constant and heavy. It is not uncommon for Hate to actually be fighting minus two people who run a CoH chain for the entire duration of the raid.

And, straight up, with all the hacks available... why would you bother putting one extra person in the zone? Its just not enough of an advantage to make it worthwhile.



Now as for the language.... I have frequently said that there is more RP on Zek than there is on FV. This is the way guilds talk on Zek, particularly those originating from SZ. Hate guild board was actually the server board for SZ, and that's just how people there are. That's not an 'uber' guild thing on Zek, it's there in guilds at all levels.


The news articles on Hate site are thought out. They are usually carefully worded. This is the desired image that they are promoting.


This is the image Hate guild members want to have and maintain themselves. They don't have one image in one place and another somewhere else. Provoking fights with others and other guilds is the goal. These news articles do that.

Hate has always been absolutely straightforward in what type of player they recruit, and if you have issues with language or with fighting, you are out. The youngest players in Hate were 17-18, and most were 20-30. This isn't 13 year olds talking.

On Zek there is constant posturing and fighting of the guilds. It is a PvP server. If you are in a zone and ask about a guild in /ooc you probably have instantly started a 10 minute /ooc fight about it compared to others.



I know that most blue server players just don't 'get' what the community on Zek is like. There is no compromise, there is no forgiveness. If I say it is tough, people think they are tough. If I say it is hard, people think they've done something as hard. If I say it's mean, people think their own guild is mean. And quite frankly, you don't have a fucking clue.

I'll give it to you that you might get the daily frustrations. But I just don't think you get it overall. On SZ the neutral team was blocked from killing Rallos Zek for a year and a half. The good team formed a deal to kill Rallos Zek and then were attacked when they spawned it. In the early days of NToV corpses were camped for 6.5 days before GMs interfered to prevent them being destroyed. Do Vex Thal with someone training you. It doesn't matter what mobs you are capable of killing as a guild. It only matters if you can protect the guildies killing that mob from the rest of the mobs in the zone.

The attitude of Hate guild exists for a reason.

[Dranul]

/nod, thought as much. I had a friend who played on SZ back in the days of Velious, and he used to tell me stories about how his corpse got camped, so he organized his guild to completely annihilate the other guy's guild while they were raiding the end of NToV, assuring that their corpses would be firmly in the claws of dragons for awhile.

It's a server thing.

[Jebasiz]

Hate was one example, there's a TON. I don't really see a *need* to portray yourself that way, reguardless of what server you're on..but oh well.

Edit: Personally, I would think a bigger "fuck you" would be leaving a screenshot up on you're guild news page that illustrates you whiping out a competing guild. IE an anguish guild(in this case).

When AO and Hoss along with several other guilds were complaining about SOE's completely unbalanced rewards for Ldon raids..a few of them used curses/foul language etc..but it wasn't quite so vulgar as what's seen commonly on other message boards.

I used to listen to a radio station in boston (WAAF 107.3 fm) who's "catch-line" for their phone callers was "Be brief, be funny, and try not to say Fuck(which was beeped out)" I guess when parusing websites I pretty much would prefer something that followed those guidelines. Instead of vulgarity streamed together in a barely semi-coherent fashion.

[Xelgadis]

I think, at the very least, guilds can try to be vaguely professional in their news postings. It's not that difficult to do, nor is it too much to ask imo.

[Brahman]

not much to say about that.

really.

guilds have been acting like asses in their news since the start of the game as far as i know.

Number one reason?

OMFG DUDERZ JOO SEE ____ CITE? CHECK IT YO.

recruiting.

[Tryal Anderror]

In Hate's case, it is recruiting...but not just as advertising.

Guilds, especially ones on PvP servers, need to recruit players who match the culture of the guild. That way potential recruits can know what to expect, and the guilds can know they're drawing a crowd who is willing to play the way they need.

In Hate's cases, it's policy to be enemies with everyone while at the same time maintaining high end raiding. There's a fairly small niche of players who are willing to do that, so It's important to let them know what you are by projecting that image. That's why sometimes it's a PvE accomplishment, and sometimes a picture of a total wipe of another guild.

Other guilds are more compromising, less PvP oriented, they'll have alliances, etc...they attract a more compromising type of player. Again, the potential recruits need to know that.

And some guilds are full on PvP, and virtually ignore raiding...again, not suited to everyone.

Basically you're creating a brand name for yourself, and it does affect how both potential recruits and other guilds react to you.

To give real examples from when Zek opened...one Guild made public peace offerings on their website and on server forums....Some guilds made small alliances...one guild expressed no interest in PvP at all and avoided it at every turn...and a Guild like Hate rejected all friendship overtures and went on the offensive, dropping raids to engage in fights.

Doing this with distinct differences allowed the right people to go to the right guilds after the merger and be with the people who play like they did.

It also affected how the guilds interacted...If Hate showed up for a fight, the other guild had a descision to make..either leave the zone and raid elsewhere...or accept the fight and forget raiding for the rest of the night. That's just a very strongly presented image, and it eventually made guilds just leave and go elsewhere.
Other guilds, with an alliance, would also deter attackers with image. "No point in Attacking Guild X, Guild Y will be here in 5 minutes to bail them out" ...If guild Y had to bail them out every day they'd get sick of it...but if you convey that image well...then it doesn't get tested.

And even the PAssive guilds...Say Hate masses up to attack Guild Z..and Guild Z just evacuates....Then the Next day Hate goes to attack again, and Guild Z evacuates...eventually Hate will say "No point wasting our time, they'll just run" and now again that image has left them untouched.

I would say your guild image developped through both action and advertising on forums and your website is one of the most important factors in interguild PvP

Putting vulgar language on a news post is a reflection of the guild as it is. Hate swears and says filthy stuff all the time, and we've had people get in the guild and find they get too offended before. We're not going to stop having fun, it's an older demographic and so the filthy language will be there. Again, you gotta know it will be there ahead of time. There's no reason to hide it from public when your face to the public is the Advertisement for what your brand and culture is.

[Mallakith]

Hate is the reason i no longer play on a pvp server simple as that

Training guilds is not pvp

training mobs on single ppl to "get the camp" is not pvp

The zek forum is full of comments about hate.. GM's chatting away with them while they blatantly breach the play nice policy because (hey its a pvp server).

I miss vallon zek.. I enjoyed being pure dark and taking on Ancient Dawn and Defiant in Ssra and low end PoP gear hell sometimes we won. Then Sullon arrived and fked the whole server.

This isnt a bug and id put money on it being a hack.

Thats the first and last ill say on this topic

[Tryal Anderror]

I'm an ex-Officer of Hate,
And it's exactly what aryse said it was. We swap people in and out of instances non-stop. It isn't a bug or a hack, it's actually working exactly as intended.
If you've never seen 55 people in a 54 person instance, frankly, you havn't done any of them.

I would remove someone from the Expedition without even telling them and invite the next person because it was faster. The new person would come in and the old person is kicked in 2 minutes for GoD zones and up to 10 minutes for Older places like PoTime.

Training Guilds and People is Sullon PvP, Sullon had No Play Nice Policy, nor any rules.

The GMs can't even stop hacking by Vallon Guilds, I can't imagine they're too concerned with people from Sullon playing as they have legally for 3 or 4 years.

But This Goes back to my point on Advertising. Hate lets you know Exactly who they are and what to expect..And that's why the Webpage looks like it does and says what it does.

No polished image, no misrepresentations. Just "We're going to kick your ass and fuck you every way we can" because that's the philosophy.

Sorry that Hate ruined Zek for you..But They were forced into a situation they never wanted, and their way in more dominant, so It wins. Tough shit =/

95% of them would go back to Sullon in a heartbeat if they were allowed.
But, When in Rome...Burn it to the ground and round up the fleeing hot chicks~

[Meph]

Sadest thing is people acting like that are actually 25-40+ years old. Role play my ass. :lol:

[Rijak]

there's a lot of ways to be successful in eq, and it's a big world, especially these days with all the instancing... and training happens on blue servers too... we had a few confrontational guilds from time to time on stromm... none of 'em really stood the test of time, but some were very successful for quite a while

badass-type guilds have never been my thing, but as i said, they can be entertaining (especially on messageboards... stromm's much too friendly these days, so no one posts anymore :P ) ... variety is a good thing

[Tryal Anderror]

She's entirely accurate though.

The encounters on All servers are the same...but on Sullon, Training was legal and you could be PKed.

Further to that, every encounter completed was done Without Paladins, Druids or Rangers because they did not exist on the Evil team.

So, Doing some event..like Rallos zek for instance, on a blue server means beating RZ.
Doing it on Sullon means beating RZ, without 3 classes, while holding off trains and attacks from 2 enemies teams.

By definition it's harder to accomplish. That's not arrogance, that's just a fact. PvP servers have all the challenge the blue ones do...and then additional challenge as a result of the PvP.

It does make for a tougher player in general and one more resistant to frustration by failure.

The guilds are just meaner, I garauntee you a Blue guild has never intentionally stopped the progression of another guild for YEARS. The top Good team guild on Sullon was held at Vex Thal level for 2 years until they disbanded.

If you offered 'helping hands' to the other teams on Sullon, you were an X-teamer and were penalized or booted from your guild.

Mobs are easy, people are hard. And trying to ding 45, with a level 70 camping your xp spot is just something that toughens you up.

It's not arrogance, but better training and more adversity lead to a tougher and better player. That's just common sense

[Rijak]

i agree to a point... putting PvP into the picture naturally makes it harder, as does a lack of rules for GMs to enforce and the class thing... but it's apples and oranges too

players have to adjust to their own server and their own circumstance... what may have worked the best on SZ probably would not work the best on other servers

and someone "toughened" by SZ might not flourish on another server because their tactics would not be acceptable to the majority of the players on that server

on stromm we had some instances of movelog guilds who came from other servers where "racing" to targets was the norm... by comparision, we have a mostly respected informal rotation system... it caused trouble (and still does at times)... but most of the highend players came around because they saw that it was to their advantage to do so

the key to good leadership, and a successful guild, is to be able to adapt the best to your given situation... it sounds like <hate> did that well for their place and time... but that does not make it right for every situation or them necessarily "better" than other successful guild on other servers

there are many ways to get what you want out of the game... some direct, some not as much so :ph34r:

[Jebasiz]

Further to that, every encounter completed was done Without Paladins, Druids or Rangers because they did not exist on the Evil team.


You had less dead weight!


So, Doing some event..like Rallos zek for instance, on a blue server means beating RZ.
Doing it on Sullon means beating RZ, without 3 classes, while holding off trains and attacks from 2 enemies teams.


Heh..maybe if your goal wasn't to piss them off as much as possible they woulda let ya be from time to time.

By definition it's harder to accomplish. That's not arrogance, that's just a fact. PvP servers have all the challenge the blue ones do...and then additional challenge as a result of the PvP.

The guilds are just meaner, I garauntee you a Blue guild has never intentionally stopped the progression of another guild for YEARS. The top Good team guild on Sullon was held at Vex Thal level for 2 years until they disbanded.



VT people when you're PoTime+ geared are nothing more then an after-thought. Ya they might land ONE spell on you..or mez you...maybe even hit you, but it won't hurt.

[Tryal Anderror]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Aug 24 2005, 10:05 PM


Heh..maybe if your goal wasn't to piss them off as much as possible they woulda let ya be from time to time.


This is actually THE difference in our philosophies. We never wanted them to leave us alone.

We wanted everyone to bring their A game against us non-stop, and we piss people off so much in order to ensure that they continue to do so.

If when we went to Zek we wanted to establish a nice little environment, everyone would have. But we provoke the fights 'cause we want the fights, not just at times its convenient but all the time.

And you're still thinking about 1on1 fighting. Yeah, of course Time+ geared people outclass VT geared people. But That's why We use 5 people to stop their Raid of 50.

It was incredibly rare to ever fight Goods if you wern't outnumbered atleast 3 to 1. And of course, there was the training..gear doesn't much enter into that. Only skill, positioning, timing, strategy and Counter-train tactics.

[Mallakith]

Ok i promised I wouldnt...

Tryal u post that "we had to beat rallos zek without paladins druids or rangers.."

Infectus were pure team dark against a server full of crossteamers and never resorted to training. (Ok i accept that was legal on Sullon so ppl get used to a certain way of fighting).

Least Hate had bards!

Jeb id just like to add:

PvP on red servers is actually easier than blue as spells have set resist mods on people sure your spells are resisted a lot but having 533 mr doesnt mean "autoimmunity".


My favourite PvP memory just as a last recall:

Infectus gather in PoI to do dragon then hopefully behemoth.

Mid buffing theres suddenly a mass group buff brells (hmm something wrong here we dont got any paladins, /who, In the middle of Infectus theres Caliel (not sure if hes still around) and a Defiant warrior. Next thing we know warrior has hit ae rampage disc(I think) and smacked every infectus member for around 700 then they grin and zone out!

That was the nature of pvp on Vallon which im not sure Sullon (or Rallos) ppl realised. Progression was blocked but its only natural, When ppl u fight everyday are close to similar gear you have to work to keep them down.

I just feel Hate especially got a very bad rep early on after the merge. I know the shit some of them pulled on me was wrong. Maybe they want this "attitude" to be broadcast but again it further enhances the childish nature of a lot of the members (My opinion).

[Aryse Andenter]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Aug 24 2005, 10:05 PM

VT people when you're PoTime+ geared are nothing more then an after-thought.
That's what Legends is for :rolleyes:

[Tryal Anderror]

Originally posted by Mallakith@Aug 25 2005, 07:58 AM
Tryal u post that "we had to beat rallos zek without paladins druids or rangers.."

Infectus were pure team dark against a server full of crossteamers and never resorted to training. (Ok i accept that was legal on Sullon so ppl get used to a certain way of fighting).

Least Hate had bards!





You are from another PvP server, so it kinda follows my point.

You chose to play a certain way, you chose to play with pure dark teams and no one made you do that, its something you and guildmembers wanted to do.

I just used RZ as an example, Hate was Time/Qvic+ at the time of the merger and is now in Anguish. So the key here was that despite the disadvantages they were still making the same PvE accomplishments as other servers.
I'm sure playing without Bards on top of everything would be difficult, but the lack of progression of a Guild like Infectus shows they didn't actually overcome that disadvantage.

Not meant as an insult to the guild, as I admire anyone who did stick to the pure teams and not compromise.

On Sullon, the top 3 guilds All trained, it was legal and people had been training since the server opened on day 1. People intentionally went there because it had no rules, So it was never 'resorting' to it.

If you actually go back and look at what Hate actually did...and we put a lot of thought into this at the time...We intentionally sought out and made sure we were attacking everyone, not just focusing on the big guilds. We wanted the EP and lower guilds to know they'd be getting hit too. We Would intentionally hit a lower guild and then camp the bodies to provoke a bigger protecting guild to come and help them...This is how we made sure that everyone considered us 'KoS'

We did train a little at the beginning, this was mostly to test our limits. There were no GMs on Sullon, so we needed to see if anyone would stop us. Eventually we did cut out training after a month when a GM got around to giving out a warning. But we got the point across..every train that hit resulted in Total wipes because none of the other Zeks knew Counter-training tactics.

I personally booted 3 people from Hate who I caught hacking, and we were incredibly strict on that. It was our policy that while we wanted other guilds to Hate us, we needed the GMs to like us and even root for us. That was accomplished simply by inviting GMs to witness large-scale PvP fights. And with GMs in Zone several times we bludgeoned guilds at insane ratios. 40 kills to 3kills, 50 kills to 6 kills and so on. After letting the different GMs see it first hand, they didn't ever question us on hacking or training again.

The image is well crafted, You're supposed to Hate Hate...but if you analyze what they're actually doing...it's not hacking or cheap tactics...it's simply forcing people into fair fights and winning.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Tryal Anderror@Aug 25 2005, 09:23 AM
Hate was Time/Qvic+ at the time of the merger and is now in Anguish.
...
We intentionally sought out and made sure we were attacking everyone, not just focusing on the big guilds. We wanted the EP and lower guilds to know they'd be getting hit too.
...
The image is well crafted, You're supposed to Hate Hate...but if you analyze what they're actually doing...it's not hacking or cheap tactics...it's simply forcing people into fair fights and winning.
Time/Qvic+ taking on EP flagging and below... I guess by 'fair' you mean strickly 'not hacking' rather than taking on a guild with a fighting chance?

[Mallakith]

Heh supporting hate now ;)

PvP servers a "fair fight" is literally one where no hacks/cheats are used.

On Vallon this included "Immortal Healing" and "OOR Healing" where a cleric who was not hittable (for either being out of hit range or the same race as the attackers) heals the person u are fighting. As you cant do anythig about it it was a royal PiTA.

You accept ppl have better gear. You do your best and at worst have a 15 min snare on you.. /afk time

[Aryse Andenter]

Originally posted by Xislaben+Aug 25 2005, 02:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xislaben @ Aug 25 2005, 02:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Tryal Anderror@Aug 25 2005, 09:23 AM
Hate was Time/Qvic+ at the time of the merger and is now in Anguish.
...
We intentionally sought out and made sure we were attacking everyone, not just focusing on the big guilds. We wanted the EP and lower guilds to know they'd be getting hit too.
...
The image is well crafted, You're supposed to Hate Hate...but if you analyze what they're actually doing...it's not hacking or cheap tactics...it's simply forcing people into fair fights and winning.
Time/Qvic+ taking on EP flagging and below... I guess by 'fair' you mean strickly 'not hacking' rather than taking on a guild with a fighting chance? [/b][/quote]
All three teams started equally Xislaben. All had equal chances to prevent other teams and other guilds' progression. Hate was blocking EP progression at the same time as it was accomplishing its own. Eventually Hate managed to pull ahead in progression... and then way ahead... but Hate was not geared better than the other teams when they first established dominance.


And yes, on Sullon Zek 'fair' had little to do with gear. An uber geared level 7 never thought it was fair when he was attacked by a naked level 67 ;)

[Tryal Anderror]

Originally posted by Xislaben@Aug 25 2005, 02:37 PM

Time/Qvic+ taking on EP flagging and below... I guess by 'fair' you mean strickly 'not hacking' rather than taking on a guild with a fighting chance?
Time/Qvic+ was the top guild on Sullon Zek. But like Aryse said, we started equal, and it was only after 3 years of good strategy and constant fighting that we pulled that far ahead.
And as i said, we never fought them 40 on 40...we controlled them 5 on 40.

But when the servers mergered, all of a sudden we were ranked 5th, there were 4 guilds who were ahead of us in PvE content...and we still beat the snot out of them.

After only a few months, Hate is in 2nd place and rising....unfortunately Pandemonium will probably all be banned before Hate passes them because they're the ones who really do hack to a level I've never seen before...But making the climb nonetheless.

On Sullon there Was no guild with a fighting chance because we beat them. And Zek there were many, and we beat them too. There is no guild that can stand with even numbers and have a chance vs us, no matter what the gear. It comes down to tactics we're polished in, and they're only learning and a resolve to do it that they'll likely never have.