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sauruman
11-29-2005, 08:51 AM
Lets start simple.
Modifying the top ten list will go thusly.
Phase 1- Remove any items in the top ten list we feel have been addressed with a no from SoE, or we don't want there any longer. This is the purpose of this thread. Post WHY you don't like a specific item, but don't suggest a replacement for the particular item in this thread. This is to keep this thread managable and readable, as it will be posted in THREE places, on eqlive, eqnecro, and necrotalk. Please consider the poor correspondent! There will be other threads to the end of replacement class issues, post that information there! We nec's are diverse, and I'll try and do my best to make sure I hear from each of you your various concerns.

Phase 2- Debate replacing these items on our top ten list. I welcome your suggestions in this regard- don't be shy! Open a thread! Don't be shy opening polls etc. But if you vote in these, be prepared to say WHY in your reply, because thats what I'm interested in. Open it with the subject of the proposed class issue in the title line, and an explanation in the body of the thread. Try and get as specific as you can in your suggestions. I'm not asking for exact values, but some specifics would help us get a feel for where your coming from.
EXAMPLE if your not happy with Willful Death working only 25% of the time, a class issue item replacement might look like: Increase the frequency Willful Death fires from 25% to 90% to increase our survivability in raid situations where we are expected to survive, and give us increased pulling utility. This could come through increased aa pricing, or through a short duration triggered ability (like a disc), but we would seriously like a quick fix to the FD being broken problem, and thus far Willful Death hasn't been that fix.

Phase 3- Constant changes. This list won't ever be in stone. I can submit this list to Ky on a monthly basis and will do so as we change priorities or issues get resolved. In fact a fluid class issues list is the best idea, because it will signal ever more so that we are alive and kicking, and have some terrific ideas. Ky commented the necro class correspondent application received three times more applications then the other recent class correspondent apps. They know how active our community is. Lets keep this lively debate going, even if its to the drone of a war drum. Keep it civil over there at EQlive, but feel free to speak a little more bluntly on necrotalk and eqnecro.

Why this method? The community feels many of these issues have either been fixed or are just plain silly. We also have a vacant number 10 on the class issues list- this must be remedied! We can keep up with the times by modifying this list frequently. If we don't pick strong, good items for the class issues, they possibly won't get the play we like, and no change will come with the request.

Some have said the purpose of this list is to placate the community. Most of us know better, however. As your correspondent, I won't rest till the issues we decide upon are in the right hands for future changes. If this list gets ignored, we'll consistantly reiterate our concerns and as a last resort modify the list to issues that are addressable. I'll make sure to relate to you any upcomming changes to the list so we can modify it accordingly. I'll do my best to remain impartial in some of the more divisive issues, while adding my own input when we discuss among the community. Just because I post a suggestion or idea on a thread doesn't mean THAT is what I will be submitting to SOE.

Some notes when opening new treads for suggested class issues replacement:
1) Is the issue a bug? If so, send me a PM or open a normal thread alerting the community. That gets solved in a different manner.
2) Has this issue been directly addressed? I.E. the lack of dot spell haste and dot mana preservation in recent expansions is an intended shift in development policy, answered in developer correspondences over on eqlive.
3) Itemization. We can more proactively address these concerns seperate from class issues lists. Yes, I know demi-plane of blood items need work. Lets get talking about these things, but not in this thread!

As a final note before we begin this discussion, keep in mind we all come from different paths of Everquest. If your raiding potime, txevu, Vishi, hatchet or nothing right now right now, please consider adding this information to your posts. This isn't so we can berate you. Its so we can understand your perspective, and your needs as a necromancer in this situation. All necromancers aren't created equal, and have far from similar needs. One guild might use a necro for constant twitching, another guild might use them simply as rezbots. Or they can use you like mine does, FOR DPS (I made a funny!) If you don't tell us these things, we won't have a clue!


Here is the current top ten list, last updated by Sissl (we miss ya bud, thx for the hard work!!!). Post your thoughts, I'll chime in a little later so as to minimize my biasing the conversation initially.

Necromancer


Section 1: DD vs. DoT parity and balance.

#1 - Parity of DoT Crits (Currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning
With Omens of War, the DoT casters got AA to bring them in line with the “non-specialized” DD casters (Mages, Druids etc.) However, just like Wizards happen to be specialists in, and undisputed masters of Direct Damage type spells, so do Necromancers feel that they should fill the same role for Damge over Time spells. Either a clarification that SOE does not feel that Necromancers are specialists in the same way that Wizards are, or address this disparity (an innate chance to crit, and an AA tier that catches Necromancers up to Wizards in terms of % chance to crit). Also the AA Destructive Fury does not currently affect DoT crits, only DD crits. Necromancers feel that either making this AA affect both types of Damage (preferred) or another AA line for DoTs would be appropriate.

#2 - Lowering of DoT resists (Part of the proposed first pass with class re-envisioning posted on EQLive on 3/14/2005)

In order to attain adequate DPS, DoT spells must be stacked, and in a timely manner (i.e. as close to the start of a fight as possible). Resists can affect Necromancers in 2 ways:

DoT spells incur a penalty that is greater than the lost time a DD resist entails, as we lose not only the time / opportunity to stack more DoT spells on (the same as Wiz lose) but also lose time in which our spell takes effect (less ticks elapse) which DD spells do not worry about. In a fight, time means more to a Damage over Time caster than any other equivalent damage dealing class. Many classes have methods to “front-load” their damage (e.g. Kyv Strike line) – shorter fight lengths are a DoT caster’s enemy, not friend. It is a unique challenge for DoT casters that as they improve and progress through content such as Anguish or Tacvi, that the proportion they contribute to a group lessens as their guildmates get extra gear, rather than increases. Their actual contribution may increase (i.e. they generate more DPS), but their DPS gains have the potential to be proportionately less than their guildmates, if the fight shortens to the point where one or more DoT spells are not completing, or are not running long enough to be comparable to swapping that DoT out for a nuke cast, which is the least efficient / effective way Necromancers can deal damage.

Encountering Mobs that are highly resistant to certain types of magic will again affect a class that is DoT dependant more than it would a DD caster or melee for that matter. A DD caster that encounters a mob that is resistant to all but one line can pick the best / most efficient spell of that line and chain cast it, perhaps taking somewhat of a hit in DPS due to it not being his most efficient spell. A DoT caster usually must stack multiple DoTs across several different resist lines in order to attain anywhere near his max DPS. Being forced to stack backwards within the same line of resists has a very large detrimental impact to a DoT caster’s dps, often forcing the caster to go back to spells he had 15 levels below his current level. Solutions to this include making DoT spells innately less resisted than DD spells, (see above, was #5) or to add more resist lines so that necromancers have increased flexibility when choosing lines to stack, such as a new cold resist DoT (Currently being evaluated). Note that this may not be an effective solution as many current mobs are highly resistant to ALL lines except for one.

Closing thoughts
The original vision of the way that Damage over Time spells work in game, versus Direct damage spells in many ways does not apply to the way that the game works anymore (especially at high levels / highly geared characters). The shift that occurred during Planes of Power towards shorter nastier fights, with clerics healing faster, wizards nuking harder, rogues stabbing for bigger hits, and mobs hitting like Mac trucks, and dying relatively quickly did some good things for the game. The game is faster paced now. People are less inclined to think of long, boring slog-fest encounters. However, to a certain extent, a baby is being thrown out with the bath water. DoT spells were originally more efficient and more damaging, with the trade off that they took time to take effect. With the time meter shortened so much recently, most DoT spells do not run full duration -- with the notable exception of the horror line, and even that does not always do so -- making them at best equal to, and often less efficient than an equivalent nuke. What keeps Necromancer DPS still very good in group fights is only the fact that we usually have the mana regeneration to spend mana wastefully and flagrantly so. What used to be the downside of DD casters (lack of endurance, they could burst DPS, but lacked ability to sustain that for very long) has been substantially lessened because of huge manapool sizes and the proliferation of mana regeneration, and the reduced duration of any one fight. This is so much the case that mana drains have been placed into many raid level encounters to artificially lower the endurance of all caster types. These manadrains are such that you either must cure yourselves (curing usually done on clerics first, damage casters second) or spend the mana on DPS before the drain removes it for you. Again the efficiency of Damage over time is mitigated by the raid design, and the ability to dump your mana into damage before it’s drained dry has the edge going to DD casters. The entire mechanic of Damage over time, I suspect needs addressing.

Section 2: Necromancer utility

#3 - All classes need some reason that makes them desirable in a group situation aside from “just” DPS. Historically Necromancers have enjoyed a rather large tool chest of utility spells. Please consider ways of expanding on / keeping the traditional necromancer utility lines. Some suggestions put forward by the community are below, but please do not consider yourselves constrained to, or limited by these ideas. The most popular ideas are in their own # on the top 10 list. (Currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning


* Revisit the requirements of Essence Emeralds, or look at the ease of acquiring emeralds given the mature playerbase – Many players are finding it difficult to acquire the emeralds now and are finding themselves forced to create an alt just for the purpose of sacrificing it.
* A component free 93% rez AA that is similar to call to corpse with one use every 72 minutes.
* More options to move / find / summon corpses
* Increased healing capability (some necros miss the health transfer line)


#4 - An upgrade to the mindwrack line of spells (currently being evaluated)
As a side note to this, many necromancers continue to ask for an improvement in the Subversion (mana transfer) line of spells. However this is a very very very controversial subject in the necromancer community. I will however try to cover the rationale behind asking for a better mindwrack spell, and why others continue to ask for improvements to to the Subversion line. Spell costs continue to rise, and necromancers are still being asked to use this line of spells both during raids, and to alleviate downtime. What is ending up happening is that necromancers are spending an inordinate amount of time doing so to the exclusion of their desire to perform their class’s primary role: that of dealing damage. Many necromancers just want a sense of closure to this line, either through making it obsolete through an improvement to mindwrack (the most popular, and hence the request that is put forward) or through an upgrade to the line such that we are not spending long periods of time assisting other characters with their manapool at our expense in both time and effort. (Many have suggested one large transfer with a very very long recast time).

#5 - A new spell added to the screaming terror line, or AA's to make the current screaming terror spell effective on mobs greater than 55, to include current and upcoming content. (Part of the proposed first pass with class re-envisioning posted on EQLive on 3/14/2005)
Necromancers want to retain their group utility and means of filling in for a variety of classes in a pinch. A new mez spell will let us keep this utility that we did have with Screaming Terror. Necromancers feel in no way that a new spell coded similarly to screaming terror that limits us to 1-2 mobs mezzed intrudes on the core capabilities of enchanters and bards. If a new spell is not in the cards, explore other ways of retaining said utility via AA's or some other mechanism.

#6 - Address the fact that Word of Terris is not effective for a necromancer who solos, or who does not have a class who can debuff the mob in their group. (currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning
Having a spell line that is completely dependant on outside help from a few specific classes is not characteristic of the Necromancer. While many necros feel that the appropriate adjustment would be specifically to address the MR adjust portion of the spell that was previously reduced from -100 MR to no adjustment, we are leaving the request open for you to consider other solutions to the core issue stated above. Also of note is the lack of undead mobs to charm. For example, of 5 different themes in LDoN, 3 of them are populated with undead, and only 1 theme has undead that are charmable. Also not all instances of that theme have the charmable mob in them. While this is not a class issue, and more a content issue, it deserves mention in this context.

#7 - Improvements to Desecrating Darkness (Currently being evaluated)
There is not much of an improvement to this line that makes it clearly desirable to use over Embracing Darkness. The only difference is a slight increase in DPS, and a corresponding increase in mana cost. A clear reason to consider this spell an upgrade would be one of the following: increased snare %, increased duration, decreased casting time, decreased resist rate. The reason the spell is cast is not for it’s damage component, but for the fact that it is a snare.

#8 - Cosmetic changes (lich illusion / pet model) (Currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning
Players have consistently asked for more means to make themselves individually distinctive. Gnomes looking like gnome skeletons, iksar necromancers having the iksar skeleton model, lich models that allow other players to see other wearable items that the necromancer has equipped (tattered robes, or some sort of particle effect / blur filter or some other method of showing lich). Also requests for a new pet model are very common as previously the different shades of necromancer skeleton were a sort of badge of honor showing how much a necromancer had progressed. Getting away from the pale white skeletons to the brown/red skeletons was a sort of rite of passage.

#9 - Pet Upgrades / Pet Focus Scaling (Currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning
A. Improve overall pet defense / survivability - particularly on raids pets will get killed by AE affects designed to kill melee in the area. AE DoT's that melee have to have cured, the pet often is not. AE rampage, spiky damage that while painful on melee who have 10K-16K buffed hp, will one shot the pet before any group / AE healing can be applied.

B. Address scaling / focus availability (as noted in re-envisioning notes, this should be forthcoming, but felt this was important enough to necros to mention in top 10). Benefit at the very high end (minion of discord / minion of chaos) seems lacklustre according to many necro posts.

#10 - TBA

Jebasiz
11-29-2005, 12:16 PM
ohh god, again? The last 2-3 times we did this, we got a bunch of "currently being evaluated" replied from SoE and nothing happened.

Please tell me this isn't another waste of time.

Edit: I"m sorry, we got Willfull Death. What the F**K was I thinking?

Xislaben
11-29-2005, 01:45 PM
Currently raiding DoD/DoN tier4/Txevu/Inktu'ta/Qvic/Uqua/Ikkinz/Time, lvl 70 epic 1.5 just under 400 AA


#1 dd to dot crits - they gave us yet another line of aa's in dodh with dot crits, they may consider this issue resolved, though I hope not as the return was rather poor.

#2 dot resist - this is certainly a problem, it would be nice if we had better resist check on our spells or our debuffs debuffed more both in number and type (yeah stacking issues yada yada)

#3 utility - dealing with ee's, component less aa 93% rez, summon corpse across zone line, better hp2hp line, I say these are not very important. Sure they may be kind of nice to have, but our dps gets us groups with the well informed, and Mind Wrack, which is otherwise icing on the cake, gets us groups with the ignorant masses.

#4 better twitch - I'm almost afraid to ask for anything here one way or the other, as I'm nearly sure I will dislike whatever solution is implemented. Regardless I think we have to ask for something very specific and see if we can get a straight Yes or No on it...

Here's some ideas previously bandied about:
a) Upgrade to subversion line (soe has said no, or so I'm told, anybody have a direct quote on this handy?)
B) Upgrade to MW
c) Give subversion line to other classes so they can feel the pain
d) Only allow subversion to work in down time (IE on pc's on nothing's agro list, like limitations on opening chests so the coding's already there!)
e) Specifically disallow subversion in some zones
f) Some combination of the above
g) None of the above

Nota Bene, there will be no change here that doesn't upset some portion of the necro community, and lack of change will annoy yet another section, so it would be nice if soe devs looked and saw that a problem clearly exists in the disparity of mana usage in new heals and the lack of better twitches (which could be quite intentional), and please either say "we're not going to do anything at this time" or "we intend to phase out the twitch line" or pick something :)

#5 new Screaming Terror - I've seen the new fear spells, and I doubt we'll get a new ST that we'll like. We can't mez nearly as well as enc's without any mez extending aa's, and we won't get any new spells that come close, which would cross a class barrier and annoy encs, so what's the point in asking? Would it be nice to have? Sure I'd like to have it, but I don't think I'll get it.

#6 word of terris - See #5, these spells which were once useful are now toys at best, useless relics of past expansions at worst. What's the point of asking for an upgrade to this spell when it won't work half as good an enc charm if we were to get it, so say nothing of a lack of content on which to use it? Even if we got a charm undead to lvl 70 with a -100 mr resist mod, that lasts for 10min and has a 1 tick recast, I'd still probably rarely use it. Fun toy, maybe, but by no means something I think I want let alone need.

#7 upgrade snare - Yeah there's a disparity between 63 and 68 snare. I use the Ossein of Limitless Time and the bandolier, so I never mem Desecrating Darkness anyway unless cast time is a significant issue, and it rarely is, not even in 69.1 hard. If soe's going to dick about with this line how about giving us a better resist check on it?

#8 cosmetic changes - I'd like this to be #1, though its not very important in terms of game play, it's certainly something that I would enjoy a great deal

I want to see pet weapons
I want to not hear my pet
I want to not look just like every other necro (have robes show up?)
I want to not look very similar to every other class that got the Halloween mask
I want a skelly horse/drog without losing exist speeds, even if it's an illusion provided it doesn’t cost a buff slot

#9 pet lives, again - Very important. I believe soe devs have said they intend pets to be used on raids, be nice if they could survive some of the AE's and take 1 round of ae rampage.

#10 How about letting Army of the Dead wake the full number of mobs, even if there are not that many fresh corpses around? Use a skelly model for default for surely something has died there before, I don't much care what it looks like. In fact all skelly models would be fine, and less confusing to the poor tanks and mezzers (though I do enjoy waking very large models). Also, why not allow the AotD pets use the spells that the WtD can? Maybe even let the WtD mob have the same model of what it woke and the AotD be all skellies with or without spells like WtD though I'd prefer with.

Jebasiz
11-29-2005, 02:41 PM
Also, why not allow the AotD pets use the spells that the WtD can? Maybe even let the WtD mob have the same model of what it woke and the AotD be all skellies with or without spells like WtD though I'd prefer with.


BAD BAD BAD BAD gnome. That idea is so completely detrimental to anything necro it's not even funny. Just what we need to do, wake 5 mobs that chain dispell a debuffed raid mob and wipe the raid.

Xislaben
11-29-2005, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Jebasiz@Nov 29 2005, 02:41 PM
Also, why not allow the AotD pets use the spells that the WtD can? Maybe even let the WtD mob have the same model of what it woke and the AotD be all skellies with or without spells like WtD though I'd prefer with.


BAD BAD BAD BAD gnome. That idea is so completely detrimental to anything necro it's not even funny. Just what we need to do, wake 5 mobs that chain dispell a debuffed raid mob and wipe the raid.
Yeah that would certainly be a down side :)
Really though I'd like to get 5 mobs even if 5 corpses aren't available, and maybe have some sort of toggle that would allow or disallow pets to cast (say if the Advanced Pet Discipline aa affected AotD pets).

Jebasiz
11-29-2005, 02:54 PM
Increase dps by lowering resist rates, maybe update some pets and their foci..and leave us alone. If the level cap increases, I'd like a new charm and mez worth half a shit, other then that..just keep doing what DODH did. Although, they may actually want to code in an interesting raid or 3 just to keep people interested. I've never seen such badly implemented raid content before as the last 3 expansions.

Anguish breeched in a month.
Vish dead in 3 weeks.
Blood tier 1 cleared in 6 weeks.

Yay for expansions that are at a minimum of 6months apart.

It doesn't matter what they do for classes if the new content is pathetic.

Nirruden
11-29-2005, 03:01 PM
70th level necromancer ~150AA, newly flagging into elemental planes.

Phase 1: Elimination of issues from top 10
Issue #8 is the big one as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I'm easily pleased in an aesthetic sense, but cosmetic changes shouldn't be taking priority over the other issues we have listed - and surely we can fins something to replace #10 as well?

Some of our issues (#3) are "conglomerates" instead of single, well-defined issues. Jamming too much into a single "point" risks overloading the poor devs (or at least, that's the excuse we'd get) and getting nothing significant accomplished. We need to be specific, and this point is not. The clearer we can be when elaborating our wants, the better - so this "glob" of stuff should be removed and replaced by less "general" issues.

The rest of the issues look pretty much all right. I doubt we'll see an upgrade to Desecrating Darkness (How much slower can they make things run?), they've already been heard to say they won't upgrade twitch (and I thought they said MW as well) and I suspect that I'll get a Screaming Terror upgrade that borders on the useless, but that's par for the course.

Dranul
11-29-2005, 03:14 PM
Numbers 4, 6, and 8 should be removed, imo. My guild is farming Time and beginning to progress into GoD, for reference.

4) With the current trend of content giving us mobs that are always MWable, this is almost a non-issue. Flag all previous mobs as MWable as well, if you can, but not a critical class issue.

However, I will say this about MW, even though we're not supposed to offer suggestions just yet. MAKE IT GO TO THE SHORT BUFF WINDOW. I am sick and tired of seeing "Your spell would not take hold." and wondering if it was the warrior or cleric. I see absolutely no reason why a recourse that only lasts 30 seconds every minute should go to the main buff window.

6) With the recent nerf to charms...no, let me rephrase that. Given the fact that charms have been the whipping boy for nerfs for a long time now, has anyone ever seriously used Word of Terris or even Word of Chaos? They are novelties, nothing more.

8) I'm sure we can find more things to bitch and moan about than cosmetic changes.

Rijak
11-29-2005, 03:47 PM
i'd personally wipe the slate clean... but, if we must:

#1 - Parity of DoT Crits (Currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning

seems to be all set... dps numbers are pretty close with all the DoT-enhancement we have seen over the past few months... drop it

#2 - Lowering of DoT resists (Part of the proposed first pass with class re-envisioning posted on EQLive on 3/14/2005)

i personally think the whole resist issue is fine... it allows melees to shine on occasion and casters on others... it also makes the game more of a challenge... if we were able to stack each and every great DoT we had on every single boss in the game, it would be boring... drop it

at worst, this situation should be addressed encounter-by-encouter... if there are a few that need tweaking, address it specifically with other caster classes as well... the is not a "necro" issue

#3 - All classes need some reason that makes them desirable in a group situation aside from “just” DPS.

i think we are fine here too... i never have grouping desirability issues... EEs are dirt-cheap as it is... i rez at will and never even ask for plat... worldwide corpse summoning would be nice, but maybe to powerful... the only thing i'd like to see would be an upgrade to the group tap-heal spells, since group healing is often a plus in today's raiding and grouping situtaions

#4 - An upgrade to the mindwrack line of spells (currently being evaluated)

maybe a L65 and 70 mindwrack upgrade, but not too huge... tag twitch spells as non-combat, and an upgrade there would be okay too

#5 - A new spell added to the screaming terror line, or AA's to make the current screaming terror spell effective on mobs greater than 55, to include current and upcoming content. (Part of the proposed first pass with class re-envisioning posted on EQLive on 3/14/2005)

fine, as long as it is nothing more than a level increase and the same in all other ways... even then, it would be marginally useful

#6 - Address the fact that Word of Terris is not effective for a necromancer who solos, or who does not have a class who can debuff the mob in their group. (currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning

we don't need charmed pets... drop it

#7 - Improvements to Desecrating Darkness (Currently being evaluated)

a bit better stats would be nice, and this can be said for the self-buff lines as well... not essential, but nice

#8 - Cosmetic changes (lich illusion / pet model) (Currently being evaluated)

i think the only changes that would not be a development nightmare would be:

a ) design a new spectre model game-wide

b ) replace all lich models with an exisiting model (or redesigned existing model) that is unavailable to any PC currently... (i.e. the terris thule's guard's model)

#9 - Pet Upgrades / Pet Focus Scaling (Currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning

pets are what they are... to much change would imbalance the non-raiding game... drop it

#10 - TBA

lots of ideas for new ones, but will wait as you asked ;)

Jebasiz
11-29-2005, 04:06 PM
#10 - TBA


Night stalker upgrade..it should be a significant upgrade. Hell even if it's 1500mana for 500 a tick for 36 seconds..not efficient enough to be dps, but actually enough of a heal to make it worth while.

orrrr, something like mindwrack or upgraded nightstalker to mgb. I think those should be aa's that have like a 45min to 60min refresh, like a Perfection of Spirit ae tap(unresistable of course).

Xislaben
11-29-2005, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Jebasiz@Nov 29 2005, 04:06 PM
#10 - TBA


Night stalker upgrade..it should be a significant upgrade. Hell even if it's 1500mana for 500 a tick for 36 seconds..not efficient enough to be dps, but actually enough of a heal to make it worth while.

orrrr, something like mindwrack or upgraded nightstalker to mgb. I think those should be aa's that have like a 45min to 60min refresh, like a Perfection of Spirit ae tap(unresistable of course).
XYZ class "omg you overwrote my regen/perfection/whatever you bastage!"

Wasn't that the same reason scent of midnight lost is fire debuff and our epic pets got nerfed?

Jebasiz
11-29-2005, 04:19 PM
If you can't coordinate MGBs among a raid, you don't need to be raiding at all. let'em bitch.

Brahman
11-29-2005, 04:22 PM
our epic pets got nerfed?

I was under the impression the change from a DD heal to a HoT heal was because it would heal for more this way?

Jebasiz
11-29-2005, 04:28 PM
Guardian of blood used to be a hoT that took a buff slot and over wrote other HoTs. If you ask me, we got an upgrade with the change.

Xislaben
11-29-2005, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Jebasiz@Nov 29 2005, 04:19 PM
If you can't coordinate MGBs among a raid, you don't need to be raiding at all. let'em bitch.
On that point we agree, but it's not just mpg's, 500 hp/tick for x ticks will probably overwrite many many hots and long term regen buffs wouldn't it?

As to the epic pets, I thought the heals were decreased as well?

lesk
11-29-2005, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by sauruman@Nov 29 2005, 03:51 AM
Some have said the purpose of this list is to placate the community. Most of us know better, however.
Are you sure? If you were a game designer and I played your game and said, "Hey, guy, I think the necro class should get innate dot crits. Can we do that?" do you think you would need 16 months to come up with an answer? That's how long they have been evaluating our #1 request. They haven't said no (that I know of..). They haven't said yes. It's little johnny's mommy that doesn't want to tell him that she's poor as shit. She says I'll think about it dear. We'll see.

I understand that these lists have effected change. The frustrating detail is that communication is a one-way street with these things. We tell them what we want, they say thanks for playing, and we are expected to work with that answer in order to refine our requests. It's a flawed system, for sure.

RE-RAIL INC

[70 as of a week or so ago, 80ish aas, been in a guild for a couple of weeks that raids with a coalition that could probably handle time and is currently backflagging members like me through the elementals.]

For the list, I say scrap the whole damn thing. Every word. Select all; delete. It's wordy and rambling. Nobody wants to read a dissertation. Re-write it. Keep it neat, clean, and short. They've been reading the same shit from us for over a year ... I think they know all the details by now. Or, go to the other extreme and make it so GD wordy they can't even figure out where to click and paste their response and we just get a little note at the top that the whole damn thing is being evaluated.

#1 was on the list (in #2 spot) as far back as the eqlive thread goes (and that post was an "update"). The post is dated 7/9/2004. More than 16 months. I think the answer is no.

#2 was on the 7/9/2004 list. Its 5-word version would likely suffice should we choose to continue pretending that all it needs is another 16 months of evaluation!

#4 and #5 were on the 7/9/2004 list. The response to a new mez then was "no change planned at this time"

#7 .... what do you want? 100% snare? It was a minor dps upgrade. There just isn't much they can do to our snare to continue the line. Even better resist check and maybe a better damage per mana or something, but seriously ...

#8 I hate that cosmetic changes are on our list. We are so good that all we care about is looking good while we kick ass. Having said that, move this to #1 please ;)

#9 just doesn't excite me. Maybe I'm just not at the level where it matters yet. My biggest problem with pets is missing rage in melee spam range. Don't we have tools to deal with content that isn't pet-friendly, tho? Our heals now clear huge numbers of counters. You can always suspend the little guy heading into areas with unfriendly AEs.

---

Bottom line: some of the items I think we can safely assume a no answer. We could take some of the 16-point items that we have, refine the ideas, and spread them out to fill the 10 spots. It would go much much much smoother if they could just put the letter O right after the letter N on items that they just do not like instead of letting them stagnate for periods of time measurable in years. I despise ambiguity.

Brahman
11-29-2005, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Xislaben+Nov 29 2005, 12:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xislaben @ Nov 29 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Jebasiz@Nov 29 2005, 04:19 PM
If you can't coordinate MGBs among a raid, you don't need to be raiding at all. let'em bitch.
On that point we agree, but it's not just mpg's, 500 hp/tick for x ticks will probably overwrite many many hots and long term regen buffs wouldn't it?

As to the epic pets, I thought the heals were decreased as well? [/b][/quote]
the total amount of each heal was reduced, but basically since it was healing over 3 tics it would go something like...

proc
tic
tic
proc
tic
proc...

so you were not getting the full heal. Now however much it procs you get the full heal everytime, so the net effect is more healing. I didn't have epic back then though so i'm not sure if it actually worked out that way but thats how it was suppose to work.

Aryse Andenter
11-29-2005, 05:59 PM
I raid Anguish+.

#1 - I think this point needs to be adjusted - taken in a different direction.

While there is a disparity between DD and DoTs, I'm more concerned about our lack of 'burst' DPS than our comparative crits. Too many raid mobs these days have points where you have to pull off DPS entirely too, also leaving us without our DoTs (to me, this hurts my DPS a lot more than resistant mobs).


#2 - This can stay.

I can still put out 400+DPS with only my poison line, but I think this needs to still be addressed because some necros feel their DPS is very much hindered by mob resists, and also because other classes think our DPS is hindered by resistant mobs. If possible it should be tidied up however.


#3 - Change this slightly - maybe focus more on general utility than specifically group utility, and add numbers 5 and 6 to this one.


#4 - Stay! And expand.

We have even more ideas about ways to 'fix' the mana situation (MGB MW, no twtiching in raid zones/while combat flagged, other classes having to do it, soul orbs that are mana orbs, etc. etc.). I like the wording of necros needing a 'sense of closure' on the twitch line of spells. I'm happy to get rid of twitch, I think that'd be a small price to pay to be allowed to go back to DPS on raids. But another type of change would be welcome.


#5 - I think this should stay as a subpoint to necro utility or flexibility.

This is too likely to go the way of the fear upgrades, but I still like the idea of an upgrade for up and coming necros. I just don't think it's important enough to hold a whole slot on the top ten by itself.


#6 - I think this should also become a subpoint if it is going to stay.

Again I would kinda like to see this addressed, but I don't think it deserves a spot to itself.


#7 - Hmmm, I'm undecided.

I don't really want a damage increase to it (summoning mobs) but the upgrades mentioned make sense. Our snares have always been a bit odd though...


#8 - I guess it could stay.

This is not a big issue to me, just a mild annoyance, but I guess enough people are really hung up on it. For me, even if they only gave us new models moving forward (ie with our new lich and pet in the next expansion :P ) that'd be something.


#9 - Stay

I don't want to pet tank more than I already can necessarily, but I want a pet that is more controlable and that is more survivable on raids. Also, should I lose agro to a pet kiting I want the pet to live through a couple of rounds to at least give me a chance to get agro back - right now that's not happening, and pet is nearly instantly dead.


#10 - Well clearly this needs to be filled up :D There's tons of ideas out there I'm on board for, I'll wait and see a more appropriate post for discussion on this.

Felicite
11-30-2005, 08:29 AM
70 nearly 600 AA, I "raid" nothing (ok, Fear for friend's Epics). I play 3-5 hours 5-7 nights a week. I lack personal end game experience.

1. We do more damage than ever.. silly damage. Not sure what sane person would give us any improvement. Anyone looking at our DPS seriously would reduce it.

A filled in cold line of DoTs would help with fights that reduce our lines available.. but.. geez. Even Mages, the masters of elements, only get Fire and Magic right?

2. Kinda like #1. We land fine, cept where resists are by design.. and hell, we have more options than anyone? Do wizards get posion and disease?

3. I am still shocked how unwanted we are, mostly. One of the top raid groups on my server is recruiting Clerics (duh), Bards (so few) and Wizards (for awesome DPS). Mind you, they are still finishing Gates which I think we can contribute a hair of DPS. But I really think our sort of Anti P.R. is nothing new. Pfft.. I will just solo.

Sure, having little DPS meters everyone in the group could see might be fun, but kinda feeds back to #1.

Yes.. an upgrade to Night Stalker (for 1500 mana if need be) would be useful.

EE's are available.. it's fair.

4. Mana transfer is fine. We have the haters.. delete it. And the believers.. double it. Just leave it functionally stabilized and move on.

Would like to see 5 more (or 10 more) ranks of FT cap lifting AA.. but more for other classes.

Make Mind Wrack recourse go to short buff.. gawd yes. Pretty please?

5. Based on the content even I face, aint no way I would use a MR 0 checking Screaming Terror to 70. I seriously doubt they will give us to 72 or 73. So.. this spell would still be too low and dangerous as hell to use (or course we can FD, but really). Screaming Terror was fun.. you can root park, kite, die, or get an Enchanter.

6. Necro charming is toast.. but then again.. all charming is toast really. But, if they want to leave this in.. changing the "break" formula to include some MR offset (like.. if the mob was Tashed) seems fair. Druid charm get this too? But not Enchanters.. because they can Tash. Seems.. messy. I say give them all 50 or 75 pts of MR redux.. and Enchanters, certainly the master of Charm would be able to get double benefits by Tashing. This one change could make Charming more used by all Classes, really.

That's us.. helping the community.

7. I would take another 30 seconds on the top Darkness.. who wouldn't. I never used it.. until Gift of Mana. Now I have a reason.. and it's reason enough.

8. I would love for tattered robes when I lich.. who wouldn't. Ain't gunna happen. I would take a poll "just do away with Illusions"? and I honestly do not know where I would land on that. There was a time when I was sad no one got to see my robes.. right now, I would care less.. it's kinda fun being anonymous until I pop off Dark Possesion.

Pets.. kinda the same thought.. how would the community at large respond to "all necro pets are skellingtons"? No spectres. Seems like that answers 99% of the complaints.

9. Pets are fine. Gawd.. both Omens pets are double fine. Pet focus items are available like never before. Life is good.

10. if nothing else, /pet mute command.. for all classes. NDTed pets are freaking annoying.. try being a tank next to them for 4 hours. You would shoot the Enchanter.

Schaeffer
11-30-2005, 09:55 AM
I play 2-5 hours a night 3-5 nights a week and raid PoP one night a week. I have just under 300 AA and 2 kills away from breaking into elementals. The non-raid nights are split grouped between MM's and trying to get level 69 and 70 spells or solo.

#1 Ofcourse I'd like to see crit chances and damage increases, who wouldn't. I do I feel a little more on par with wizzies and mages DPSwise in group situations actually I can blow the mages away. I do feel jealous when their crits are announced. It almost feels like we're not on par because we don't get the big pretty messages in parenthesis, but I'm pretty sure we are. So maybe we should keep it up so they keep the progression on par while designing newer content, but maybe it doesn't have to be at the top of the list.

#2 I don't think I'm qualified to comment as I'm not doing raid content where this is an issue for me.

#3 I haven't found myself using up that many ee's lately, but it usually comes in waves when me or the guildies are deciding to try newer content that gets us killed alot more often. When that does occur it's a serious hurt on the wallet. I've been leveling a sac bot through MM's lately 30% of a level for an mm at 50 = 3 sac's per 1/2 hour of game time. It's just a drain on my brain now instead of on my wallet :( Keep this up there, somethings gotta give here.

#4 Mana, oh sweet mana. I was in a RSS group with a time geared cleric, the tank (10k buffed), another necro, a shammy for slows and a ranger. The cleric had beastloard and chanter mind candy and the other necro and I were both timing our mind wracks so we got 2 in per mob. We still ran into mana issues. Ok we're not anguish geared and we all had less than 300 aa, but come on. A single group shouldn't have mana issues if they're only pulling singles. Either upgrade it so I don't have to worry about it often or do away with it so I dont have to deal with it at all, this is freakin ridiculous. Put this at the freakin top.

#5 Our utility roles have decreased. In early years we could be a ghetto bard, but not anymore. Bards can still do these things to an extent, but we cannot and it'd be nice to take care of a single add to save a group wipe. A duration just long enough for one mob would make most folks happy.

#6 I haven't charmed something since veksar at 61. It'd be nice to do some real damage or tankage with a charmed pet worth the trouble of having, but then there's not much there contentwise so perhaps they should just end the spell line. Doesn't really bother me that it isn't in game. I'd probably take it off the list.

#7 eh, yeah it was kind of a weird upgrade, but is it grating at my nerves, not really. I'm used to the 2 minute duration and the super speed of mobs by now. A better resist mod would be a plus though. I'd keep it at the bottom of the list.

#8 I wonder if other classes have cosmetic stuff on their class lists? I joke that i want an iksar model lich form or undead minion, but is that the top of my issue list? No it's not, game content and functionality is!

#9 Necro pets are what they are, a little extra dp. They are not tanks or uber dps. Fix pet commands and aggro issues to make using them not a hassle. We don't need them to tank or do most of our dps for us.

#10 I guess I'll have to start voting in the polls

Dranul
11-30-2005, 10:52 AM
Actually, another note about MW. Not only make it go to the short buff window, but make it stack with other necros' MW. I'm having enough fun timing dots, snare, watching for enrage, etc, to worry about whether or not my MW was just overwritten.

Tryal Anderror
11-30-2005, 04:02 PM
The Ones I think we could remove from this current list are:

#6) Word of Terris/Chaos usability. Unless they're actually going to increase the level usable on these, there's no point having this listed. They just don't really want people charming mobs in most places people fight and I doubt even an upgraded version would ever be truly an option in real situation unless they're willing to allow this on like lvl 70+ mobs.

#7) An increase Snare % would be ok on Desecrating Darkness, and possibly a better resist rate, but I view this as a very minor issue, more a tack on to general DoT resists than its own point.

#4) I Think this one should be changed in focus...we obviously want things changed for our mana transfer spells, but If they're not going to upgrade twitch, I just don't see them upgrading MW much either. So I'd like to just see this rephrased as the total mana issue, not limited to Mindwrack. This has to be looked at all together.

I'm 70, 1150AA, Anguish+ DoDh etc...

UsulDaNeriak
11-30-2005, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Dranul@Nov 30 2005, 10:52 AM
Actually, another note about MW.* Not only make it go to the short buff window, but make it stack with other necros' MW.* I'm having enough fun timing dots, snare, watching for enrage, etc, to worry about whether or not my MW was just overwritten.
the devs already said that they dont like more FT in game.

so in a perfect situation (fast incoming mobs) a nec can cast mw immedieately after refresh. that means 300 mana per minute = 30 ft for all casters (more with foci? i heard 33ft).

now 2 necs can chaincast mw, but with a short delay in between usually. thats about 50+ ft. AND: these 2 necs have to time their mw precisely, and the chance in a non perfect situation that 2 mw lands on 1 mob is low.

without the 1 min recast time a single nec could do that much easier. thats 20+ft more for a group.

i doubt sony is willing to reduce the recast timer on mw.

BUT, if they move the buff to bard window alone, i would be happy.

another idea, even if i am afraid its hard to implement:
mw will become outdated or is already. when it was introduced cler and other casters had a 6 k manapool max, so 300 mana was ok. but nowadays casters got a 10k+ manapool. wouldnt 500 mana from mw now be appropriate? make mw recourse a relative spell, depending on the target it is 5% of the targets manapool. this way sony will never need to upgrade it again, the spell upgrades itself. i know, i contradict myself) thats again more ft in game)))

Usul

UsulDaNeriak
11-30-2005, 04:48 PM
regarding #1 i am with felicite here:

our dps is already great after dod spells/aa and such. if we keep this up than we need some very detailed comparisons of wizzard dps looking at their spells and aa very closely. wizzards are complaining these days, that they fall behind us. be careful

regarding #2 i agree to felicite again:
the resists are made by design and we are doing usually fine once we know what is resisted. i doubt sony is willing to change here something dramatically.
but a cold line dot would help imho. a wizzard can chainnuke the 1 line which is not resisted and doesnt loose soo much dps this way. a nec cant, he needs to use another dot line. a cold line could help here.

Usul

PS: seems to be a trend, Usul supports Felicite)

Felicite
11-30-2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Schaeffer@Nov 30 2005, 02:55 AM
#4 Mana, oh sweet mana. I was in a RSS group with a time geared cleric, the tank (10k buffed), another necro, a shammy for slows and a ranger. The cleric had beastloard and chanter mind candy and the other necro and I were both timing our mind wracks so we got 2 in per mob. We still ran into mana issues. Ok we're not anguish geared and we all had less than 300 aa, but come on. A single group shouldn't have mana issues if they're only pulling singles. Either upgrade it so I don't have to worry about it often or do away with it so I dont have to deal with it at all, this is freakin ridiculous. Put this at the freakin top.
Hrm.

The other night we did the same thing in RSS.. Gift group containing me^3 (Nec, Clr, Enc), Croix the SK and Warspite. We never could find a 6th.

We sat in the room with the signet guy for 2 hours and chain pulled (some doubles, Croix loves me the Enchanter too much).

I admit when Warspite left and it was just me^3 + Croix I started to fall behind on mana.

I am slightly ahead of you in gear.. if you look at Aumnyder.. I bet, but geeze, Riftseekers is not a casual zone.

With two necros Mindwracking we can do just about anything with me the boxed healer (and he is < 7k mana). We do Hive hard missions tanking, RSS, Nest missions, etc.

I was actually thinking it was too easy..

Xislaben
11-30-2005, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Felicite@Nov 30 2005, 04:57 PM
I was actually thinking it was too easy..
It should be.

Does 'time geared cleric' mean he/she/it has 1 item from p1?

Felicite
11-30-2005, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak@Nov 30 2005, 09:48 AM
but a cold line dot would help imho. a wizzard can chainnuke the 1 line which is not resisted and doesnt loose soo much dps this way. a nec cant, he needs to use another dot line. a cold line could help here.
Have to agree with Usul... and I never really considered that all a wizard needs is one line to land. Since their entire payload is instant, they can just re-use the "good" spell for that mob.

With the reinvisioned spell recast timers basically zero across the board, no one remembers "chaining" multiple spells, anyway. Nukers just use the best one spell, right? (removes toungue from cheek.. but they do sometimes I bet!)

I am contrasting us with a wizard in a "Fire only" fight. The Wizard chaining his 70 Nuke, while we stack as many Fire DoTs as we can. How far down would I go? Pryocurr? Ignite Blood? But we could Incinerate Bones while we waited..

Schaeffer
12-01-2005, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Xislaben@Nov 30 2005, 05:58 PM
Does 'time geared cleric' mean he/she/it has 1 item from p1?
newp, pretty sure he has quarm loot. He was being botted, but I can't imagine this would make that much of a difference. Maybe the warrior didn't have as many aa's as I thought either, something in that equation had to be off. Maybe mindwrack wasn't sticking on the cleric because of buff slot issues, but I thought the "would not take hold" messages were coming from the over buffed warrior.

FCseven
12-01-2005, 08:59 AM
70 necro here 1k AAs+ not in a raiding guild and I solo most of the time.

1.keep (necros should get innate dot crits like wizzy dots and warrior melee)
2.keep (only to lower the horror line resist rate)
3.drop
4.keep (upgrade twitch line,drop it,or just give it to another class)
5.drop
6.drop
7.keep (resist rate needs to be way lower)
8.keep (since the holloween event every gimp looks like us)
9.drop

Xislaben
12-01-2005, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Schaeffer+Dec 1 2005, 08:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Schaeffer @ Dec 1 2005, 08:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Xislaben@Nov 30 2005, 05:58 PM
Does 'time geared cleric' mean he/she/it has 1 item from p1?
newp, pretty sure he has quarm loot. He was being botted, but I can't imagine this would make that much of a difference. Maybe the warrior didn't have as many aa's as I thought either, something in that equation had to be off. Maybe mindwrack wasn't sticking on the cleric because of buff slot issues, but I thought the "would not take hold" messages were coming from the over buffed warrior. [/b][/quote]
Heh that's the only reason I have the wear off messages turned on, so I can see who the asshat with too many buffs is. If it's the tank, well I dont care (unless it's a knight) but in any case it's really up to them. If it's a caster on the other hand...