Masters of Undead

[Jebasiz]

If you claim to be the best at something you should be able to controll, pacify, destroy, charm, and slow them better then anyone else. Currently ANYTHING we can do to undead, someone else can do it better. Granted, it takes a paladin to out damage us(but they do with ease), it takes a chanter to out charm us(but omg can they), shaman and chanters can slow them better(or equally). We can't pacify them at all.

Probably the biggest single insult is, we get out-nuked on undead by mages and wizards..possibly chanters too(I haven't looked at that), and our nukes are all shared with clerics.

Perhaps it's time for SoE to actually throw us a bone here...

[Dranul]

I always chuckle when someone says, "The mob is undead, so best to take some paladins and necros."

Something wrong with that.

[Zeller TP]

We should AT LEAST be able to mez undead mobs as well as Enchanters can.

[Warspite]

Upgrade the line of Undead DoTs to put them in proportion to our other DoTs.

[sauruman]

I voted no. There just aren't enough undead in the game to make it useful. Yes there are a TON in dodh, which is amazing xp. But even though we are, "masters of the undead" by title, by fact we just aren't that. I consider us the masters of dps both burst and long-term. Dread pyre, corath venom, chaos venom, DN, ancient curse of mori, lifeburn, and all those swarm pets I feel keeps this secured, even tho wizards have the potential to do 30k in a single nuke...

The one thing I would like to see done however is our charms fixed (I.E. we can't charm in potime, though the spell goes to that level). With mez I think its just fine, on events like Vishi WE SAVE THE DAY, as chanters get slightly fewer resists then us, leaving us a true CRITICAL role for that event (esp. in the learning stages). I would like to see a slightly better slow. It will take 3-5 tries on average to slow stuff in dodh, which case the mob is dead by the time it lands. If your doing hard or easy dodh, your best off either pulling with slow/snare, or just not even trying.

[Zanbus]

I will have to go along with Sauruman on this one. Although I have not done much in DoDh (besides the odd MM here and there), it does seem like alot of the slow/mez/charm opportunities are very thin as far as undead are concerned. As was noted at the beginning of the thread chanters (when it lands) seem to have much better slow/mez capabilities than we do.

As for the charm side, I have never been one to use charm much when soloing or grouping. The length of the charm varies way too much for me to be comfortable when I am tearing down a mob and the pet decides to take a few nips out of me also. Charm kiting/soloing may be a very viable way to do things for some, to me, it is just one less spell slot I have open, maybe one of these days I will get DC and try it then.

Take it for what it is worth, just my 2 cp

[Xelgadis]

At the very least, give us an "unholy" version of Turn Undead. I need more useful items like that to spend AA on, seeing useless crap like innate stats and dire charm creeping ever closer in my AA-future makes me sad.

[Schaeffer]

I had to vote no as well. It seems that at a younger age lots of classes have more abilities. Plus 60 (and plus 50 in some instances) many classes have lost the ability to use some of their younger powers.

Necros had: Fear, ST, monster pets, undead ownage, corpse summoning, stat taps, mana transfers and direct HP transfers.

We've lost some utility to newer expansions as some other classes have. Wizzies and druids lost porting, chanters lost decent charms and mezzes, stun has become less and less obsolete for stunning classes. That's part of the evolution of the game.

Some people want certain aspects of our utility restored. If we had to choose between this and some of the other issues like addressing mana transfer and an ST upgrade, I'd put this dead last on the list. Undead stuff is very situational and I haven't used most of it since the LDoN era. They'd have to add alot more undead content to the game to make this worth while. Otherwise they could upgrade it and it'd be the fear upgrades all over again. They added the spells, but they're still so situational that using them becomes worthless.

Maybe if we could get together with the other undead casting classes (SK's Pallies and clerics) and lobby (as was suggested with the other pet classes for those issues) then we could make it a game wide issue instead of a necro only issue.

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by Xelgadis@Dec 1 2005, 08:41 AM
At the very least, give us an "unholy" version of Turn Undead. I need more useful items like that to spend AA on, seeing useless crap like innate stats and dire charm creeping ever closer in my AA-future makes me sad.
They need to add another 300-500 aa's before the end of the winter imo, expansion or not. If people only raid and log off, or don't play much..the people who would be playing/exp'ing with them will loose interest too. It's a bad situation, and there's a ton of people buying useless aa's now.

[Nirruden]

Screaming Terror. Undead Pacify. Undead Nukes. Undead Charms. What do they have in common? They're abilities we had whose utility trails off around level 50. They should not do so. There is no reason we should be giving up one OUNCE of our utility in this fashion, and yet time and again we do so, as a class.

There are undead. We should always be a good (nay, GREAT!) choice when fighting undead. Allowing others to step ahead of us, in OUR house, is simply unwise in the extreme, and I for one cannot condone a further marginalization of our class in this matter. Period.

Wizzies and druids lost porting
No, they haven't. They do cry about it, but all that happened is that others don't REQUIRE them in order to get someplace worthwhile to hunt in a reasonable amount of time. Some folks complained about the translocators when boats were removed too. They whined when the Nexus timed teleporting was put in, and when PoK stones were put into the game. Wizards and druids benefited from all of these, either directly or indirectly.

People don't (and shouldn't) REQUIRE a necromancer to fight undead, but we should be VERY desirable.

If I'm going to be porting someplace, then I desire a wizard or druid in group (TL to PoK at the end is nice!) but I never REQUIRE one to get out and have a good time. When it takes 45 minutes to run from point A to point B, and 45 more to run back, that's an hour and a half I lost from my play time for running around, and it's too much - that's half my playtime wasted on travel, every single day I play.

Fun is about the hunt, not about the journey - the old days of cross continental runs from Qeynos to Freeport are gone, and good riddance.

chanters lost decent charms and mezzes
You mean "People no longer regard charm groups as the end-all-be-all" and "Echoing madness doesn't exist", I presume? Enchanters can still charm, they just don't get access to raid-target-raping mobs anymore - sorry, I regard that as appropriate. Charm pets being more powerful than conjured pets? Fine. Stonger than the whole raid of players? Out of balance.

No single class should be so powerful, and charming mobs was way, way out of hand. I'd approve of our charmed mobs being nerfed in the same fashion, it's not appropriate for people to have that much power, even if it WAS within the game as designed at the time.

stun has become less and less obsolete for stunning classes.
You mean more and more... but I understood. Furthermore, it should not have. It's a blow to paladins and mages, in particular, but their inability or unwillingness to fight for this fraction of their class abilities is not my concern.

What is my concern is that this is what I see in our future when we *ignore* the loss of our utility spells and abilities. Make no mistake, they can take from us anything we allow them to take, and they won't be giving anything back to us in return for our losses.

That's part of the evolution of the game.
That's part of the apathy of the players.
Fixed it for you.

[GnekroeGnomicon]

I am all for being masters of the undead... simple fix, make it an aa line, make it expensive, make it so that in order for a necro to be a "master of the undead" he really, really needs to spend the time and effort into becoming one.

That or just give me a charm, mez, and slow that is useful. :ph34r:

[Rijak]

how about just a new title: "The Class Formerly Known As Masters of the Undead"

[GnekroeGnomicon]

how about just a new title: "The Class Formerly Known As Masters of the Undead" I like the way you think, how about some obscure asci 128+ character so that they don't even need to bother referring to us at all?

[Rijak]

:lol:

[Schaeffer]

Nirruden,

Undead NPC's are not in abundance post 65. This is a game wide issue. Even if we had those spells at this point, they'd be useless without them addressing the content issue first. This is why I suggested we make it an undead caster issue. Then maybe I'll want ask for our undead utility back.

I started a necro because I like the idea of RPing one and being able to solo well. I was not dissappointed through 60. At 65, I started to realize the sheer power of our class... Damage. We are a Damage class now.

The Necro has evolved. What makes me hungry, what makes me want to log in when I get home from work, is being able to cause the kind of havoc I can with our abilities. We are Master's of Damage Over Time now. The only thing that really associates us with the dead at that level is our pets and lich illusions. From an RP standpoint, yeah I can say that it's disappointing. But from a gameplay standpoint, I have plenty of fun stacking my dots and watching HP bars drop. That's what makes us desirable in guilds and groups, which enables us to see more content.

Charming, Slowing and Mezzing Undead would be nice, but it's not a top priority for me anymore, especially since the opportunites to use them are so few and far between. Yes I guess you can call it apathy, but that apathy comes about for a reason. The need for it is no longer in the game.

[Aryse Andenter]

We just had an expansion full of undead mobs, and we could do nothing with them. If all this stuff had been due out with or before this expansion, I wouldn't have hesitated to push for it - finally use for the undead stuff in the cutting edge. Now, I'm a lot more hesitant as who knows how long it will be before we see more heavily undead zones introduced. However, in the end I went yes - there are still a lot of necros who haven't started to work in DoDH yet, and they would really benefit from some upgrades to these spells. Especially since if you move through things like spell missions later you are even more likely to need to fill in odd roles, and being able to rely on your slow and mez enough to be the slower or emergency mezzer in a group in these would really really ease their burden.

[sauruman]

Also keep in mind that level 75 in Feb will probably see more undeads. If we have something like this on the top ten, that would signal the developers. Tough call, but I still lean towards no. With the exception of the slow, I think our undead utility is fine.

[Aryse Andenter]

Originally posted by sauruman@Dec 3 2005, 07:11 AM
With the exception of the slow, I think our undead utility is fine.
I disagree with this statement. If you want to argue that our undead utility is unnescesary/not worth it, I'll go with you on that. But it isn't fine, as it isn't capable of dealing with mobs that are at my xp level.

[UsulDaNeriak]

we are no masters of undead. this bullshit written in the original eq manual just means, that we can summon undeads, thats all.

forget this myth, please.

Usul

[Sathras]

Originally posted by sauruman@Dec 3 2005, 07:11 AM
Also keep in mind that level 75 in Feb will probably see more undeads. If we have something like this on the top ten, that would signal the developers. Tough call, but I still lean towards no. With the exception of the slow, I think our undead utility is fine.
Erm, where did you get the lvl75 idea? Am I missing something here or is this just a bit sarcasm?

And my bit to the question is this. I haven't missed the undead spells. I do use the undead spells from time to time but as the slow is rather pointless since you probably need a tash beforehand I seldom bother with it. And the nukes....well evocation skill is somewhere around 100 I think. So I voted no.

[Nirruden]

Originally posted by Schaeffer+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Schaeffer)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Undead NPC's are not in abundance post 65.[/b]
They weren't "in abundance" post 40, either. Outside of a few special zones, there just aren't that many undead about. Even though they're not "in abundance" they still exist - our ability to deal with them when they DO exist is at stake. I think it's important that the old anti-undead spells get continuations. (all of them: pacify, charm getting fixed, undead mez to 70+, upgraded Undead DOT).

This is a game wide issue.* Even if we had those spells at this point, they'd be useless without them addressing the content issue first.There are no undead in Ilsalin? None at all?

Charming, Slowing and Mezzing Undead would be nice, but it's not a top priority for me anymore, especially since the opportunites to use them are so few and far between.* Yes I guess you can call it apathy, but that apathy comes about for a reason.* The need for it is no longer in the game.<!--QuoteBegin-Bill Gates
No one will ever need more than 640k of RAM.[/quote]Please, refrain from telling me what my need for anti-undead spells will be today or in the future. You don't know me, or how I play, or who I play with, or where I play at.

There are undead. I like being able to back up the enchanter in an emergency when facing such content. I cannot do so in modern content, as my spell lines have suffered significant atrophy at the high end. I regard this issue in the same vein as a screaming terror upgrade. Neither is -essential-. Both are continuations of prior abilities that "faded out" earlier in our careers. I'm arguing that this should not be the case. You're saying "status quo is good".

We are a Damage class now.
We've always been a damage class, with substantial utility for use in emergencies and recovery. Snare and root are not primarily damage spells. By your reasoning, if snare was never upgraded again, or root faded from your spellbook, you'd be happy?

I wouldn't. I regard my anti-undead spells in the same breath.