Corpse summon should work across zones (portable m

[sauruman]

Being that DoN really infringed on our niche; FOR THE BETTER.... we would like a corpse summon comparable to the times.

[Xelgadis]

One of the key words I see brought up alot in regard to necromancers is 'utility'. While I think the global summoners in the Guild Lobby was a fantastic idea, in the grand scheme of things, it did somewhat cripple one facet of the utility we're well known for.

As it stands now, traditional corpse summoning resembles what became of dots during the shift to a shorter fight based game (ie. during PoP); long cast, slow burning, dots that didn't remotely come close to seeing full duration. Corpse summoning now is in a similar boat; the changes brought about by the times has antiquated this ability somewhat.

I still summon corpses, the ability is far from dead, but it's a mere fraction of what I used to summon. As for how to approach it- a few thoughts:
1) Make it a new spell, which requires a new type of coffin (more expensive, to be fair, along the lines of a Pristine Soulstone sounds reasonable pricewise).
2) Make it an AA which flags Conjure Corpse to allow cross-zone summoning, perhaps consuming 2 reagents in the process (ie. Tiny Jade Inlaid Coffin and Pristine Soulstone).
3) Make it an AA that upgrades Call to Corpse.

There's several other options, and the listed ones can be mixed/matched and further refined. If something were implemented to address this; I don't think we can really escape costly reagents, which I'm fine with, interzone summoning is essentially the next stage of evolution in corpse summoning, and I think the price of admission should be higher.

[Dranul]

Honestly, the three changes I'd like most to happen to any kind of corpse summoning spell are:
1) Allow to work across zone lines
2) Make it so they don't have to be in group.
3) Make it so they don't have to be in zone.

Make it so success cast of the spell gives you a prompt asking for the name of the corpse you want summoned. This gives that player another prompt asking if they want their corpse to be summoned to you.

This is all properly a pipe dream and ridiculously difficult to implement, but it would make the spell perfect.

[UsulDaNeriak]

honestly, i dont care.
thats also a kinda vote.

Usul

[Rijak]

cross-zone would be cool, but maybe just too powerful... it'd be CoH from the guildhall deep into so many zones in game (an you know mages would then ask for cross-zone CoH)... you could make it really expensive, but for many of us, plat is simply not a real factor

i think a decent change might be to keep it as is but remove the regent (coffin) entirely... this add at least a small bit on incentive to actually use it on occasion

[Schaeffer]

Well, they could easily get around that by flagging it not to work "into" certain zones. They've already flagged certain areas of zones against it, why not continue with that line of thinking?

[Dranul]

Or make it only work across a certain number of zonelines.

[GnekroeGnomicon]

As much as I would like to see cross zone summoning, I think it should be huge limitations on it just like how some zones don't allow CoH. And it should be very expensive.

It would be too easy for a necro to camp out in some hard to get spot, have an entire guild pvp themselves to death (you can summon and rez pvp'ed corpses right? been a long time) in the arena and summon them to the hard to get spot... way too many chances for abuse. Maybe make it so a necro could just summon to PoK or city zones... something like that would add utility but not make it open for abuse.

[Schaeffer]

I believe the rezz timer on PvP corpses is like 2 minutes.

[Felicite]

Originally posted by GnekroeGnomicon@Dec 1 2005, 08:26 AM
It would be too easy for a necro to camp out in some hard to get spot, have an entire guild pvp themselves to death (you can summon and rez pvp'ed corpses right? been a long time) in the arena and summon them to the hard to get spot... way too many chances for abuse. Maybe make it so a necro could just summon to PoK or city zones... something like that would add utility but not make it open for abuse.
There are very few zones you that can't do this anyway.. in the zone.. already. Like bridging Sky.

I would love to see cross zone Call of the Hero (like City of Heros/Villians has a Summon spell/ability that can pull a group member from anywhere in the game to you). But this is pretty game changing, and it's not like the furthest zone is more than 5 minutes?

I think an anywhere in the game to you corpse summon is totally reasonable.. and the Tiny Jade Coffins already cost more than Pristine Soulstones, don't they? If you left the "live you must be in the zone" acspect in, it would be harder to use as exploit.. I mean you can already PvP yourself in the zone and summon.

But it would allow you to be a personal version of the Guild Lobby. For a higher cost.

So I voted yes.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Dec 1 2005, 10:23 AM
Well, they could easily get around that by flagging it not to work "into" certain zones. They've already flagged certain areas of zones against it, why not continue with that line of thinking?
much like i argued in the twitch thread, a change that involves devs revisiting a bunch of old code is likely to not be implemented due to the work involved... though i could be wrong

how about this:

necros can summon cross zone, but only in the guild lobby and component-free... don't touch the old spells, but introduce a new line that functions exactly like the exisiting soulstones do

think of the raid value that would give necros... free raid-wipe summon to GL

not to mention that we could camp the GL like clerics and whore ourselves out :P

[Dranul]

Originally posted by Felicite@Dec 1 2005, 04:14 PM
Tiny Jade Coffins already cost more than Pristine Soulstones, don't they?
Tiny Jade Coffins are around 80 plat with naked iksar cha (Usually when I buy them.) and the Pristine Soulstones are 195 plat with naked iksar cha (Again, usually when I buy them.)

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Dranul+Dec 1 2005, 09:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dranul @ Dec 1 2005, 09:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Felicite@Dec 1 2005, 04:14 PM
Tiny Jade Coffins already cost more than Pristine Soulstones, don't they?
Tiny Jade Coffins are around 80 plat with naked iksar cha (Usually when I buy them.) and the Pristine Soulstones are 195 plat with naked iksar cha (Again, usually when I buy them.) [/b][/quote]
Oops... I had 190p in my head.. but I have not bought them like a year.

*giggles* Gee.. why have I not bought them in a year..

[Xislaben]

The only time I use coffins now is to necro coth in sky for people's epics.

[Aryse Andenter]

I like particularly the idea of being able to summon a group member's corpse when they are not in the same zone - this would be one I would use for sure. Right now in most situations by the time someone has run back to the zone, a rogue has long ago found their corpse and dragged it - and with clerics sitting around the guild lobby and the danger involved in a naked run, if there's no rogue summoning in the lobby is clearly the right choice rather than running back naked for the necro summon. This to me is good utility without interfering or diminishing in any way the DoN summoners.

[lesk]

I just don't see cross-zone summoning as a practical request. I don't think we would ever see it. I would love to have the ability, but I think it might be a bit too much. Of course, if we could simply make the request once and be told to go screw ourselves or something I would say try it once.

Component-less summoning would be a minor incentive and there's no really good reason not to allow it.

Hell, there's been a few times where I could have used the ability to summon corpses that are in-zone to the raid for a rez for group members that aren't in zone and can't get back to the zone-in. Maybe that's best left for the rogues, though ...

I would whore myself out in the GL if I could summon component free. I think it would need to be restricted to GL and maybe PoK or something. Maybe they could build some sweet looking altar thing in PoK and we could only summon across zone while standing on that altar.

I'll vote for the portable summoners .. with the caveat that it's super-restricted, because I don't think we'd see it any other way.

This would have a very low priority for me.

[sauruman]

I voted against this. Ya, I would use it. But in the long run I feel there are more pressing issues. Summoning corpses happens because people are too slow/lazy to run back or dumb enough to die in a silly place! Punish them! :P

[UsulDaNeriak]

sony did already destroy our summon ability with introducing the lobby summoners.

what the heck you guys are discussing here?

Usul

[Felicite]

Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak@Dec 1 2005, 03:18 PM
sony did already destroy our summon ability with introducing the lobby summoners.

what the heck you guys are discussing here?

Usul
Option One: Make it so we can summon corpses from any zone to us.

Option Two: Remove the requirement that the person you are summoning be alive in the zone you are in.

Wahl Eine: Bilden Sie sie, also können wir Leichen von jeder möglicher Zone zu uns zusammenrufen.

Wahl Zwei: Entfernen Sie die Anforderung, die die Person, die Sie zusammenrufen, in der Zone lebendig ist, Sie in sind.

I am looking at the translation.. and I am thinking it will not help.

Ich betrachte die Übersetzung. und ich denke, daß sie nicht hilft.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Rijak
much like i argued in the twitch thread, a change that involves devs revisiting a bunch of old code is likely to not be implemented due to the work involved... though i could be wrong

Eh, you would think they wouldn't care about the older zones. The zones they don't want you cross summoning into are the ones they already have coded to block summoning. I don't think they need to recode old zones which block levitate when an upgrade to a spell with a levitate component comes out. It'd be the newer zones that they'd probably want to add code to.

I think that line of logic works.

P.S. I still haven't voted on this yet, I'm not sure how I feel about it taking up space on this list yet.

[daephyx]

I'd hate to have to go /role just to avoid:

"dOOd summunz plz! Got a rez with that?" all day.

As for "zoned-out groupies," not many zones take more than a couple minutes to get to. As it is they can already make that run with all their gear.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Dec 1 2005, 06:04 PM
Eh, you would think they wouldn't care about the older zones. The zones they don't want you cross summoning into are the ones they already have coded to block summoning. I don't think they need to recode old zones which block levitate when an upgrade to a spell with a levitate component comes out. It'd be the newer zones that they'd probably want to add code to.

I think that line of logic works.
you are probably right... i was just thinking of something like this:

you want to get someone into HS unkeyed... they get in group with you then attack an NPC and get killed wherever (which gives you normal rez timer)... you go zone into HS and summon their corpse in and then rez them there

i think you can summon in VT too, so this might be possible there

[Schaeffer]

Hmmm, are keys only required to make zone entrances work? If not then this shouldn't be a huge problem either, as you could probably summon the corpse in, but the player still wouldn't be able to zone in. They could still get their corpse back via guild hall to get their stuff if someone tried to screw them. Or they could add a consent box for the PC too.

[sauruman]

'd hate to have to go /role just to avoid:

"dOOd summunz plz! Got a rez with that?" all day.

As for "zoned-out groupies," not many zones take more than a couple minutes to get to. As it is they can already make that run with all their gear.

I haven't got a tell like this in prolly 6 months. I run without role or anon on always, and I'm on a lot. /shrug

[daephyx]

Originally posted by sauruman@Dec 1 2005, 06:10 PM
'd hate to have to go /role just to avoid:

"dOOd summunz plz! Got a rez with that?" all day.

As for "zoned-out groupies," not many zones take more than a couple minutes to get to. As it is they can already make that run with all their gear.

I haven't got a tell like this in prolly 6 months. I run without role or anon on always, and I'm on a lot. /shrug
That's my point, we don't get tells like that anymore because of DoN. If you propose making us "portable DoN corpse summoners," that is what will resume...

[Nirruden]

I don't see cross-zone summoning as particularly useful. If they need corpses summoned cross-zone, that's what the lobby is for. That being said, the ability to summon the corpses of my raid without the requirement that the person be IN THE ZONE and IN MY GROUP would be nice, and is appropriate. Essentiually, I want the ability to summon the corpses in zone without requiring a player there standing beside me.

The days of lost corpses are officially gone (And good riddance) but there are other uses that have not been added and should have been.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Dec 1 2005, 06:50 PM
Hmmm, are keys only required to make zone entrances work? If not then this shouldn't be a huge problem either, as you could probably summon the corpse in, but the player still wouldn't be able to zone in. They could still get their corpse back via guild hall to get their stuff if someone tried to screw them. Or they could add a consent box for the PC too.
i'm not sure... but it seems that old-world keyed zones check when you click on the zone, not when you are actually zoning

so it might be possible to summon a non-keyed raid force into VT with only one keyed necro via death... kill stuff and then gate out

[Tryal Anderror]

I'd much rather be able to summon the corpse of a player who just died When the Corpse is in the zone and the player is not than summon with the player in zone and corpse not.

Summoning corpses to you with the player in the zone and corpse not is really more of a PoK type trick, the type of thing you do for someone who isn't in your group atm, they died somewhere else and you're helping them not buy a summoning soulstone.

But summoning the corpse when the corpse is without and they are not is a better utility for your groups and raids. You can recover the corpse of a person who died on the way, or died in an irretriveavable location and it helps your group or raid. The other way is really more to help random people who arn't helping you.

I like to think of our class as being very selfish, and the more selfish thing is to summon the corpse we're with to get the person back in and working for us.

[BlackHeart]

That being said, the ability to summon the corpses of my raid without the requirement that the person be IN THE ZONE and IN MY GROUP would be nice, and is appropriate. Essentiually, I want the ability to summon the corpses in zone without requiring a player there standing beside me.


Good Idea but it will require one adjustment to prevent abuse. A pop-up box to the player being summoned like rezzes get.

Without this, you just know some evil necro will summon corpses into deep lava pits, under lakes, behind walls, etc.

Off subject a bit, I always thought a self-only "travel to corpse" ability would be nice. So that the necro could go to zone where he died and use this ability to go to his own, or some other corpse. Seems like a necroish thing to be able to do.

[Dranul]

Originally posted by BlackHeart@Dec 6 2005, 02:53 PM
That being said, the ability to summon the corpses of my raid without the requirement that the person be IN THE ZONE and IN MY GROUP would be nice, and is appropriate. Essentiually, I want the ability to summon the corpses in zone without requiring a player there standing beside me.


Good Idea but it will require one adjustment to prevent abuse. A pop-up box to the player being summoned like rezzes get.

Without this, you just know some evil necro will summon corpses into deep lava pits, under lakes, behind walls, etc.

Off subject a bit, I always thought a self-only "travel to corpse" ability would be nice. So that the necro could go to zone where he died and use this ability to go to his own, or some other corpse. Seems like a necroish thing to be able to do.
A player-to-corpse ability, while fun, has the same basic flaw that a lot of these other suggested abilites do. It's way exploitable.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Dranul@Dec 6 2005, 10:56 AM
A player-to-corpse ability, while fun, has the same basic flaw that a lot of these other suggested abilites do. It's way exploitable.
i'm thinking the same... the only improvements i can realistically see SoE giving us would be:

1) component-free summon

2) the ability to summon from anywhere, but only within the guild lobby

these two things would once again make us preferred corpse summoners, but would not give us any new abilities

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Xislaben@Dec 1 2005, 05:46 PM
The only time I use coffins now is to necro coth in sky for people's epics.
And I really don't miss all the requests for this service.

How about just allowing us to summon our own corpses x-zone. :)

[Dranul]

Originally posted by Xislaben@Dec 6 2005, 04:10 PM
How about just allowing us to summon our own corpses x-zone. :)
The gnome speaks the wisest truth. If I could just summon my own damn corpse to the Guild Lobby instead of throwing down plat, I'd be a happy lizard.

[Rijak]

another option to add to the two i mentioned would be to change the corpse summon AA only so that it functioned anywhere and everywhere, and drastically reduce recast timer... i can't think of any possible exploits out of the ability to summon your own corpse to yourself no matter where you are

[BlackHeart]

A player-to-corpse ability, while fun, has the same basic flaw that a lot of these other suggested abilites do. It's way exploitable.


I didn't say it was a GOOD idea. =)

Yup, you are right, it would likely be exploitable. But, still fun.

Some possible ways to make it not exploitable:
Necro can only travel to his corspe if it can still be rezzed.
Long long re-use timer

Still, there will be loopholes.

[Schaeffer]

Can we let the Devs decide what's exploitable? We're nerfing our own requests before we even request them. We all think it'd be good to have, let the devs figure out how to block exploits.

[Mallakith]

This is a good idea I personally like the idea of upgrading call to corpse so that it works cross zone but self only with an AA. So we can summon our own corpses free but mortals have to go to guild lobby :)

IMO the "portable lobby" is my option but if I think SoE my heart says ask for this or at least an aa to do above we would get the self summon.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Dec 7 2005, 12:26 AM
Can we let the Devs decide what's exploitable?* We're nerfing our own requests before we even request them.* We all think it'd be good to have, let the devs figure out how to block exploits.
i agree in part, but i personally think it is advantageous for us to ask for reasonable requests and to do some of the homework... if you look at the history of changes they have done, i think you'll notice that it has usually been SOEs practice to either modify existing spells within the parameters that already exist, or introduce new spells to address an issue

something like corpse summoning involves some very old code and many zone by zone particulars... they might think of an issue like i mentioned (summoning an unkeyed raid into VT) and just say forget it because it is simply too much work to hash out all the possible exploits that might result and develop all the code that would disallow these exploits

if we make requests, and suggest specific ways to implement them that don't involve reinventing the wheel, we may be more likely to actually get them implemented