REMOVE or KEEP item 3 necromancer utility

[sauruman]

#3 - All classes need some reason that makes them desirable in a group situation aside from “just” DPS. Historically Necromancers have enjoyed a rather large tool chest of utility spells. Please consider ways of expanding on / keeping the traditional necromancer utility lines. Some suggestions put forward by the community are below, but please do not consider yourselves constrained to, or limited by these ideas. The most popular ideas are in their own # on the top 10 list. (Currently being evaluated) - Most likely this will be considered as part of the class re-envisioning


* Revisit the requirements of Essence Emeralds, or look at the ease of acquiring emeralds given the mature playerbase – Many players are finding it difficult to acquire the emeralds now and are finding themselves forced to create an alt just for the purpose of sacrificing it.
* A component free 93% rez AA that is similar to call to corpse with one use every 72 minutes.

* More options to move / find / summon corpses
* Increased healing capability (some necros miss the health transfer line)
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[sauruman]

If we choose to keep this item, it will need a lot of rewording I think. Post those ideas as well. Personally I voted a 5. While DPS is a concern, I want to stay as a situational CC on undeads, rezzer, etc.

TWITCH IS NOT UTILITY in this example, that thread is elsewhere.

[Felicite]

I think sadly the only way to make us desirable to groups to reveal our dot damage to everyone (like other player melee).

But..

Yes. We used to have enough utility beyond killing stuff to be attractive to the unwashed.

5.

[Sarnath Creed]

I agree with Fel. We really need to be able to contribute more to groups when mobs die so fast and hit so hard, we hardly get a chance to do comparable damage and add enough to the rest of the performance of the group for anyone to really notice. Having the visible DoT damage is a nice idea, and adding the ability to toggle it on and off via the chat commands would be a must at the same time.

[Xelgadis]

Voted a 2.

If I'm in DPS mode, I really don't have the additional spell gems to be bothered with alot of the "utility" that died out during the 50s.

Maybe I'm being a dick in thinking like this, so I'll offer a compromise: give me like 5-11 more spell gems, then I'll remotely care about reviving the antiquated utility.

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Xelgadis@Dec 8 2005, 10:59 PM
give me like 5-11 more spell gems, then I'll remotely care about reviving the antiquated utility.
Don't sugar coat it, dear.

[Rijak]

outside the essentials, tank, healer and slower... i find that i have lots of desirability in groups... CC has really fallen out of the picture quite a bit these days... you often can't even afford a two-pull in a group... as a result, people group with good pullers (which necros can be)

DPS is fine too... i don't even have all my spells, but i regularly stack three DoTs on every mob... and, even if my group mates don't see the damage or all the DoTs don't finish, they notice the difference when grouped with another class

add to that mindwrack, and we're pretty hot

and EEs are a non-issue considering how easy plat is to come by these days

utility simply isn't what people look for in groups, they look for people who are good players, and people who fill the primary roles (tank, main heal, slow, DPS), not the secondary ones... for necros that's DPS, pulling and MW

an upgrade to MW would be huge, but it's not gonna happen... so i'd say an upgrade to our group tap spells would be the next best thing... but even then, marginal, since it is not typically the whole group who is taking damage

[Jebasiz]

I voted 5, I miss being well-rounded(not fat). DPS is fine, but there are a lot of times where I miss having spells that would augment people around me, or even a currently effective heal/health transfer. I LOATHE tapping at full health while group/raid members are dropping all around me. Give me a hp transfer, over time and instant.

A new group lifetap(like nightstalker but 400+ a tick for 30-42 seconds or so). Give me an instant group lifetap of 850-1k as an aa or a spell.
Screaming terror

A new degeneration that will help stat capped toons do more dmg/live longer and decrease mob dps.

A worthwhile AC tap that lands...hell give me a shielding tap, avoidance or a stun resist tap.

A damage modifying tap(even if it doesn't weaken the mob..let me pretend) that gives melee 5%-10% more dmg.

What about a spell dmg modifying tap..cast that and spells do 10% more dmg...

A good undead mez, maybe one that jumps from mob to mob like the enchanters and bards get.

A new undead slow or added resist modifier to old one.

An UNDEAD LULL..FFS, it's TIME.

There's TONS of directions they could go here..I want something done. There's plenty of instances where our spells are almost useless except for a line or two, if you can't land fire or poison, you HAVE the spell gems already. There's always more AA they could throw at us. The combination of both would leave us with much room for anything they could implement, even in their usuall half-assed nature.

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by Rijak+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ( Rijak)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>utility simply isn't what people look for in groups, they look for people who are good players, and people who fill the primary roles (tank, main heal, slow, DPS), not the secondary ones... for necros that's DPS, pulling and MW[/b]

Heh it could be argued that pulling and MW are seconday characteristics to us.

<!--QuoteBegin-Rijak
CC has really fallen out of the picture quite a bit these days... you often can't even afford a two-pull in a group[/quote]

Who are you grouping with? Most groups that are doing content suitable for how they're geared/aa'd etc can easily take 2 or more. Well..unless they suck. For most things, with a well dressed toon, ROOT(whatever spell you favor in that line) is a perfectly acceptable form of CC and has been since WELL before Planes of Power.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Dec 9 2005, 12:58 PM
Who are you grouping with? Most groups that are doing content suitable for how they're geared/aa'd etc can easily take 2 or more. Well..unless they suck. For most things, with a well dressed toon, ROOT(whatever spell you favor in that line) is a perfectly acceptable form of CC and has been since WELL before Planes of Power.
i tend to hunt with groups in places that are often a good bit over our gear/aas (or at least many of the group members), so singles are a necessity

that said, my point exactly... traditional CC is not something people look for anymore... there are too many ways to replace it, from good pulling to the ability to take on multiple mobs

you hear looking for DPS, Puller, Tank, Cleric, Slower... you rarely hear looking for CC... even half the times i group with chanters, they aren't mezzing... either because it isn't necessary or it's too risky (resist means dead chanter)... they are more likely to be slowing or even pulling

there are specific situations and encounters where mezzing is essential, but at best it is a secondary utility role for a chanter... the type of mez we might get would be even less useful to a group

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Jebasiz+Dec 9 2005, 10:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jebasiz @ Dec 9 2005, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rijak
CC has really fallen out of the picture quite a bit these days... you often can't even afford a two-pull in a group

Who are you grouping with? Most groups that are doing content suitable for how they're geared/aa'd etc can easily take 2 or more. Well..unless they suck. For most things, with a well dressed toon, ROOT(whatever spell you favor in that line) is a perfectly acceptable form of CC and has been since WELL before Planes of Power. [/b][/quote]
In the early days of Omens when all the Enchanters quit.. this was a common belief. That all CC was being done "out of camp" by the puller.

Mobs hit like mac trucks to people stuck in Uqua (or LDoN geared) and they were/are very MR. Most of the time, a single attempt to mez yielded a resist, aggro and a dead (4-5K buffed hp) Enchanter.

Things have swung around a great deal now.. most of the DoDH content is designed with Enchanter's employment in mind (it seems)(now if we had any left). Nights we are doing 'traditional' stuff, I mez a lot.

Back in the "WoS Cubby for upgrades and spells" days.. add = wipe 50/50.. stuff hit hard and an unTashed Mez attempt would usually bounce. Now I have Croix bringing me 2 red cons in Riftseekers often and expecting me to mez. His aggro management spells at 70 are leaps above the old days (last night I was recanting, tashing and slowing the second unmezable mob without getting aggro).

If you asked my Gates pre-Uqua outfitted Enchanter mentor why she quit: in camp CC was impossible without dying.. a lot. I think that was true, for a while. But the balance has swung back.

[Jebasiz]

The best chanters I knew (at the time) all quit during PoP. Something about "not being needed". Of course that was highly regrettable during GoD. We needed them there.

[Ecol]

We are a DPS class. I think we should remain so. Polishing the DoT resist issue would eliminate the need for utility spells for fighting purposes.

[Jebasiz]

Who ever started a necro because they wanted to be classified as DPS? I know I didn't. I saw an amazingly well rounded character with the ability to do things other could not. It's true, I almost stayed a shaman..and the differential in dps and pets survivability(this was a long time ago..I'm not retarded) drew me here. The ability to solo revolves around alot more then just how fast we can kill a mob and what dots land.

This is as central an issue to our class as anything else imo..removing this would be doing ourselves a disservice.

If all we can do in a few years is stack a bunch of dots, and being number 3(at best, SoE will never let us top wizards and rogues)..removing issues like this will be why. I don't think very many of us would like that solitary role, if it appealed to you, you'd be a wizard.

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Felicite@Dec 9 2005, 01:48 PM
Things have swung around a great deal now.. most of the DoDH content is designed with Enchanter's employment in mind (it seems)(now if we had any left). Nights we are doing 'traditional' stuff, I mez a lot.
i really haven't grouped enough in DoDH to get the feel for it, but that's great to hear

[UsulDaNeriak]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Dec 10 2005, 05:59 PM
Who ever started a necro because they wanted to be classified as DPS?* I know I didn't.* I saw an amazingly well rounded character with the ability to do things other could not.* ...... If all we can do in a few years is stack a bunch of dots, and being number 3(at best, SoE will never let us top wizards and rogues)..removing issues like this will be why.* I don't think very many of us would like that solitary role, if it appealed to you, you'd be a wizard.
i agree to that point. just dps and fd rezzer. thats what we mainly are these days, is not enough.

but in this case the entire #3 on our list is written wrong. look at this crap!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Revisit the requirements of Essence Emeralds, or look at the ease of acquiring emeralds given the mature playerbase – Many players are finding it difficult to acquire the emeralds now and are finding themselves forced to create an alt just for the purpose of sacrificing it.
* A component free 93% rez AA that is similar to call to corpse with one use every 72 minutes.

* More options to move / find / summon corpses
* Increased healing capability (some necros miss the health transfer line)
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i dont care about these points.


let us start in phase 2 of saurumans review of the top ten list a worthful discussion about
1. the nec crowd controller (already started partially discussing ST and undead mezz)
2. the nec puller (already started partially discussing willfull death)

this makes sense, imho. but not these lightweighted points in the #3 topic today.
so i voted REMOVE IT, and replace it by some worthful discussion about utility.


Usul

[Jebasiz]

but in this case the entire #3 on our list is written wrong. look at this crap!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Revisit the requirements of Essence Emeralds, or look at the ease of acquiring emeralds given the mature playerbase – Many players are finding it difficult to acquire the emeralds now and are finding themselves forced to create an alt just for the purpose of sacrificing it.
* A component free 93% rez AA that is similar to call to corpse with one use every 72 minutes.

* More options to move / find / summon corpses
* Increased healing capability (some necros miss the health transfer line)

That is crap. I'd be the first to agree with that. Then again, I didn't write it :P
What I'm looking for, is already stated. Screw finding and summoning corpses and goddamn EE's.

Utility should come to us by skillfully applying an ability to affect a desirable outcome. Not acquire an EE for 250pp instead of 500pp. As far as dragging corpses...AS SOON as a cleric and rogue both drop(and you're sure they're not being rezzed) you should /tar them and /corpsedrag them. Let the rogues worry about mass dragging dead bodies. You should be focusing on more important matters...like getting that cup of coffee or beer that you want.

Group taps(current and beneficial). Mez, lull/pacify, charm, heals are all 'utility' for us, since they often wouldn't be our primary role. It's things we already sacrifice being #1 in dps for, why be content in letting them fade away?