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sauruman
12-09-2005, 01:06 AM
#2 - Lowering of DoT resists (Part of the proposed first pass with class re-envisioning posted on EQLive on 3/14/2005)

In order to attain adequate DPS, DoT spells must be stacked, and in a timely manner (i.e. as close to the start of a fight as possible). Resists can affect Necromancers in 2 ways:

DoT spells incur a penalty that is greater than the lost time a DD resist entails, as we lose not only the time / opportunity to stack more DoT spells on (the same as Wiz lose) but also lose time in which our spell takes effect (less ticks elapse) which DD spells do not worry about. In a fight, time means more to a Damage over Time caster than any other equivalent damage dealing class. Many classes have methods to “front-load” their damage (e.g. Kyv Strike line) – shorter fight lengths are a DoT caster’s enemy, not friend. It is a unique challenge for DoT casters that as they improve and progress through content such as Anguish or Tacvi, that the proportion they contribute to a group lessens as their guildmates get extra gear, rather than increases. Their actual contribution may increase (i.e. they generate more DPS), but their DPS gains have the potential to be proportionately less than their guildmates, if the fight shortens to the point where one or more DoT spells are not completing, or are not running long enough to be comparable to swapping that DoT out for a nuke cast, which is the least efficient / effective way Necromancers can deal damage.

Encountering Mobs that are highly resistant to certain types of magic will again affect a class that is DoT dependant more than it would a DD caster or melee for that matter. A DD caster that encounters a mob that is resistant to all but one line can pick the best / most efficient spell of that line and chain cast it, perhaps taking somewhat of a hit in DPS due to it not being his most efficient spell. A DoT caster usually must stack multiple DoTs across several different resist lines in order to attain anywhere near his max DPS. Being forced to stack backwards within the same line of resists has a very large detrimental impact to a DoT caster’s dps, often forcing the caster to go back to spells he had 15 levels below his current level. Solutions to this include making DoT spells innately less resisted than DD spells, (see above, was #5) or to add more resist lines so that necromancers have increased flexibility when choosing lines to stack, such as a new cold resist DoT (Currently being evaluated). Note that this may not be an effective solution as many current mobs are highly resistant to ALL lines except for one.

Closing thoughts
The original vision of the way that Damage over Time spells work in game, versus Direct damage spells in many ways does not apply to the way that the game works anymore (especially at high levels / highly geared characters). The shift that occurred during Planes of Power towards shorter nastier fights, with clerics healing faster, wizards nuking harder, rogues stabbing for bigger hits, and mobs hitting like Mac trucks, and dying relatively quickly did some good things for the game. The game is faster paced now. People are less inclined to think of long, boring slog-fest encounters. However, to a certain extent, a baby is being thrown out with the bath water. DoT spells were originally more efficient and more damaging, with the trade off that they took time to take effect. With the time meter shortened so much recently, most DoT spells do not run full duration -- with the notable exception of the horror line, and even that does not always do so -- making them at best equal to, and often less efficient than an equivalent nuke. What keeps Necromancer DPS still very good in group fights is only the fact that we usually have the mana regeneration to spend mana wastefully and flagrantly so. What used to be the downside of DD casters (lack of endurance, they could burst DPS, but lacked ability to sustain that for very long) has been substantially lessened because of huge manapool sizes and the proliferation of mana regeneration, and the reduced duration of any one fight. This is so much the case that mana drains have been placed into many raid level encounters to artificially lower the endurance of all caster types. These manadrains are such that you either must cure yourselves (curing usually done on clerics first, damage casters second) or spend the mana on DPS before the drain removes it for you. Again the efficiency of Damage over time is mitigated by the raid design, and the ability to dump your mana into damage before it’s drained dry has the edge going to DD casters. The entire mechanic of Damage over time, I suspect needs addressing.

sauruman
12-09-2005, 01:09 AM
Definitely 5+ for me. Keep this item till they get it right. Scent didn't solve the problem. In fact, they just increased resists as a response to it. That effectively meant we need to keep another spell memmed on boss fights in order to get near where we were prior to the spell.

Also, scent doesn't even work on mobs that are either highly poison or disease resistant.

This is to say nothing of the matter that so much of GoD and OoW in particular are so incredibly resistant. This applies to group and raid content.

Felicite
12-09-2005, 03:35 AM
5 - Give us a Lure more powerful than Splurt please.

That or ATK buffs enough to make melee possible on some of these fights.

Sarnath Creed
12-09-2005, 05:53 AM
5+ for me.

Even at only lvl 59, resists are killing me at times. I know that at the end game things are way different, but when i have 6-7 dots i can cast in one boss fight and 4 of them get resisted, and the only ones that stick either take too long to finish (splurt) or dont do enough damage to be viable at times. The fire line of dots we have has a nice resist rate, if our poison/disease lines were more in tune to the resist ratio of the other dots we have then it would make life a lot easier.

At the same time it cant be made too easy. if nothing ever resists, then soloing would make us insane in power. even in groups when a resist can cost us 1-2k in damage,

Rijak
12-09-2005, 02:10 PM
i don't agree... i look at the DPS numbers on many fights and necros seem to stack right up there with the other casters, sometimes a bit better, sometimes a bit worse

i think it would make much more sense to approach this encounter-by-encounter than a global change that might make some highend encounters easier for necros, but further trivialize even more earlier content

Jebasiz
12-09-2005, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Rijak@Dec 9 2005, 09:10 AM
i don't agree... i look at the DPS numbers on many fights and necros seem to stack right up there with the other casters, sometimes a bit better, sometimes a bit worse

i think it would make much more sense to approach this encounter-by-encounter than a global change that might make some highend encounters easier for necros, but further trivialize even more earlier content
We don't post fights like Hanvar much heh..they're pathetic. Ever seen a complete tacvi parse? Keep this please, and argue it with much vigor.

Rijak
12-09-2005, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Jebasiz+Dec 9 2005, 12:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jebasiz @ Dec 9 2005, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Rijak@Dec 9 2005, 09:10 AM
i don't agree... i look at the DPS numbers on many fights and necros seem to stack right up there with the other casters, sometimes a bit better, sometimes a bit worse

i think it would make much more sense to approach this encounter-by-encounter than a global change that might make some highend encounters easier for necros, but further trivialize even more earlier content
We don't post fights like Hanvar much heh..they're pathetic. Ever seen a complete tacvi parse? Keep this please, and argue it with much vigor.[/b][/quote]
fair enough, but in the over all scheme of raiding what percentage of targets you hit on a regular basis would you say are too hard on casters?

if it's 20-30%, i'd say give melees a few... if it's 70-80%, i'd say you're correct

Jebasiz
12-09-2005, 06:02 PM
Everything except Xxeric and fake tunat is an absolute bitch in Tacvi.

The Curse raids in DODH are laughable..you could afk on draygun and Cot9 and noone would freaking notice.

Vule..we shine(but he's not a curse aa raid).

Anguish, KtH early on is a pita. Hanvar sucks, Jelvan event sucks, Ture is so-so once debuffed. AMV is ok...

DoN. Kess blows due to reflect and resists you're lucky to land 1 and 4 non-magic based. Rikkukin, same thing. Ya'lir is fine. Vish..we have magic and fire.

danoob
12-09-2005, 06:05 PM
If there were a ten it would get my vote.

And i disagree Rijak. While we may parse well on a few fights, after mobs have been fully debuffed, it does nothing for me when solo. I dont exactly carry pocket debuff bots around when soloing.

Some fights resists are so bad I'm reduced to 100 dps. Get'm goner!
I mean multiple line resistant mobs, getting undead slow to stick after 8 casts at 10%, 5 snare resists straight so mobs go loose and people think I am slackromancer, etc etc. This issue is probably the number 1 issue across caster classes though. My guild rogues parsing 1500 mob after mob, and I cannot get 1/2 my decent dots to even land. grrr.

Example from memory from a nest mob last night. Snare resist,Snare resist,Snare resist, Snared, ACoM resist,Clickie horror resist,Dread pyre stick (yay),Corath venom resist,ACoM resist, Pyre of Mori stick,ACoM stick,Corath Venom Stick,

Call for Blood resist. Just gdi.

Now some will say just stick with fire dots. But the mob has to be snared. Clickie horror is free, and I'm running on a 30 minute timer kiting multiple mobs at once trying to maxmizie exp by killing quick not efficiently. Some will say its the RNG being a bitch and its just bad luck.

Too that I say, fix resists!

Seriously, Magic lines are resisted quite often, poison lines as well. I can back stack fire lines but dps isnt as good, and disease isnt exactly a parser breaker. In exp groups where mobs die quite fast, my resists over time doesnt do much for the group, I become a one trick wonder, the mindwrack bish. Ive limited utility so think I'll go solo something since noone wants me in a group, If I can only get snare to stick that is.

Sorry if this is a bit long and rambling but resists really get on my nerves and have for quite awhile. It is with out a doubt the number one thing I want addressed.

Jebasiz
12-09-2005, 06:09 PM
Who the hell is parsing 1500dmg? For how long? If it's for the duration of a 30 second disc it means fuck all. If it's over 2-3+mins it's way out of balance. GOGO ae rampage mobs!

danoob
12-09-2005, 06:13 PM
Lol Ture back them down some on dps sure :P point taken. But we had 3 rogues parse 1500 on JtH and AMV last time I believe it was.

Rijak
12-09-2005, 06:14 PM
if it's that much, then i'd present the argument that way to SOE so they don't think it's just casters bitching about a fight or two... you convinced me

Jebasiz
12-09-2005, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by danoob@Dec 9 2005, 01:13 PM
Lol Ture back them down some on dps sure :P point taken. But we had 3 rogues parse 1500 on JtH and AMV last time I believe it was.
Short fights...Your guild has fake rogues. They need to die to AMV's dt ae like the other melee.

sauruman
12-10-2005, 12:11 AM
Everything except Xxeric and fake tunat is an absolute bitch in Tacvi.

The Curse raids in DODH are laughable..you could afk on draygun and Cot9 and noone would freaking notice.

Vule..we shine(but he's not a curse aa raid).

Anguish, KtH early on is a pita. Hanvar sucks, Jelvan event sucks, Ture is so-so once debuffed. AMV is ok...

DoN. Kess blows due to reflect and resists you're lucky to land 1 and 4 non-magic based. Rikkukin, same thing. Ya'lir is fine. Vish..we have magic and fire.

Exactly why this is top ten list moreso NOW then EVER.
Some raid mobs like Rikku and Kessa make necros expendable additions to the encounter, no matter how well geared.

I don't think its asking to much to give each class a niche in each fight. We aren't the only ones complaining about resists. Its across the board. Wizards here are our closest allies, and the second to complain next to us cause they can't land shit before and sometimes even after debuffs.

Some might say its unbalancing to lower resists. I say the way resists are now is insulting. Up the hps on mobs worst case, I want to feel useful on some of these fights ffs.