Change to item 7 for approval

[sauruman]

Sorry....


Dropped part of item 7 off the list. I don't know WTF I was thinking to be honest. This was my error.

Debuffs? This would go contrary for the language we were striving for in the item 1 on resists. This was my fault and I take 100% responcibility for it. Although group taps are "debuffs" in a sense, they aren't in the say scent sense.

The item now reads just as group spell upgrades.

For clarification...
Degen upgrade - maybe with overstats, avoidance mod built in
Crippling Claud upgrade - less resists, but keep the same type of attribute it does on the boss (this line is huge on some raid bosses) and make the bonus be something in the lines of fero, cleave, damage bonus or something that mellee would want on them
Group heal upgrade - this would be huge, I use group heals as much as humanly possible, making me a god with a group on a prolonged AE type fight. In its current form its a drop in the bucket, tho.


etc, etc. We can work on language later.

What I want to know right now is.... is there anyone that would be AGAINST dropping the debuff aspect of this for voting?

If your for this item but previously were for it, feel free to edit your post. The voting will lock down on the 26th, but its open for now.

[Rijak]

i'd like to see a group heal upgrade... i don't really care as far as any other debuffs go... best to focus it on group heal only

[Xislaben]

Honestly, there are necros who actually use these spells?

Lose 1 dps spell each for:
Degeneration - 30 str/sta tap/recourse, not worth a spell gem (if it ever lands)
Crippling Claudication - 35 atk tap/recourse, not worth a spell gem (if it ever lands)
Succussion of Shadows - 18 ac tap/recourse, not worth a spell gem (if it ever lands)
Night Stalker - 9 ticks of 122hp/tick for 950 mana, not worth a spell gem

Degen - blah

CC- Doubling or trippling CC and giving it a nice resist check and maybe even a longer duration might make it worth loading for an initial cast, at least then it can be dropped for a dps spell.

SS - I think I used it once in ikkinz after a tank requested it (Oh, only 18? never mind)

NS - If they trippled the hp/tick on Night Stalker without increasing the mana cost or decreasing the duration and I'd maybe think about loading it. Healing the group is what the heal classes are for, and I'm happy they have a role.

For all their usefulness it wouldn't bother me at all if some dev accidentally deleted these from the game.

[Rijak]

a real group heal tap would be nice... for those times when you simply don't have the healers to fill out every group... a necro would never be a primary choice... somewhere in line with pally group heals, but via lifetap... maybe, at L70, 300hp a tick for 4 ticks

on the rest i agree with you

[Jebasiz]

I'd like to see:

Degeneration: over cap tap/buff for str, dex, and stamina..maybe 30 each.

Succession of shadows: A group AC tap is fine, knights in particular love ac.

Crippling Claudication: If it landed, an attack debuff + group tap is nice. Maybe add a ferocity component or something to justify using it more, and make it land...

Night Stalker - isn't enough, 300 a tick heal probably wouldn't be enough either..but that's gonna be more then they'd like to give us. It's *something* but is already insufficient, and mobs aren't exactly regressing...

Xislaben- Please think a bit, not all our lines land on every mob. If you're upstairs in RSS and someone asked you to mem mind wrack AND another group tap, most necros wouldn't have a problem doing that. That's not exactly a rare scenerio. Also most of those buffs/debuffs have 10-15min timers on them, and refresh quick enough..that if a named spawned or another mob that you want to drop 3-4 dots on, you could mem your dots and your group would still have those buffs.

On raids..simply debuff the mob and load a dps line-up? What's so hard about that? The mob is hitting less often/hard, melee are hitting it more often/harder, and you're healing your group...that's worth a brief loss of dps.

All those lines helped a lot in velious, at level 60..where many were not stat capped..and every hp/ac mattered a lot. Now, they are useless..but if they could be made usefull again, it'd help us out a lot as a community.

Edit: I hope FC7 cringed again!

[Felicite]

I da late 50s, early 60s I used to keep all 3 running in LDoNs by casting them serially. I felt useful. I suppose I feel useful now, too.

Night Stalker actually gets used a fair bit by Giftees as a group heal nick mender.. but I would take double or triple the recourse anytime.

Xis is getting all growed up!

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Jebasiz+Dec 27 2005, 05:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jebasiz @ Dec 27 2005, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Xislaben- Please think a bit, not all our lines land on every mob. If you're upstairs in RSS and someone asked you to mem mind wrack AND another group tap, most necros wouldn't have a problem doing that. That's not exactly a rare scenerio. Also most of those buffs/debuffs have 10-15min timers on them, and refresh quick enough..that if a named spawned or another mob that you want to drop 3-4 dots on, you could mem your dots and your group would still have those buffs.

On raids..simply debuff the mob and load a dps line-up? What's so hard about that? The mob is hitting less often/hard, melee are hitting it more often/harder, and you're healing your group...that's worth a brief loss of dps.[/b]

10-15min? Whas this changed and not updated in lucy?

Deg - 6min dur
SS - 6min dur
CC - 6min dur
NS - 9tick dur

I always have mind wrack up for rss grouping, but if the tank can't handle the content without 16ac or 35atk or so, then I won't group with that tank there. If they can handle it, then they don't need the measly debuff/buff. Give them a nice 1hour duration (like Mental Horror) and it may not be such a waste, if they whine enough for it. I've been asked for a group tap other than MW exactly 1 time in game.

I don't drop 3-4 dots on a named/raid mob, I'll drop as many as possible, with dd's tossed in as well. Yeah I agree, debuff a raid mob if the spell will land (frequently it doesn't, couple with poor returns thus pretty useless) and sacrifice dps while switching out spells.

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Dec 27 2005, 05:18 PM
All those lines helped a lot in velious, at level 60..where many were not stat capped..and every hp/ac mattered a lot. Now, they are useless..but if they could be made usefull again, it'd help us out a lot as a community.

Edit: I hope FC7 cringed again!

Yes, on this I think we agree. I'm just not sure they can be made useful without grossly unbalancing them for previous content or giving them detrimental changes as well, which will end up again with me not using them. I don't have enough buff slots as it is on raids (ok I haven't purchased the 5 more with aa's yet) and I certainly wouldn't want them filled with this crap. Even the shammy spell Fortitude which is overcap STA is questionable, 100hp or so for a bluff slot is a bad ratio, though we only get the +40 sta cap there.

<!--QuoteBegin-Felicite@Dec 27 2005, 05:37 PM
Xis is getting all growed up! [/quote]

:P

I remember getting Degeneration or Succussion of Shadows (maybe both!) in UP as a drop, and being all excited, and then finding to my dismay that most stuff even there resisted it!

[Dranul]

I used Degen once in VT because I wanted to get 5k hp. Good times, good times.

If the power taps were ever made significantly useful again, which would mean like 200 atk tap, 500 ac tap, changing Degen to extra 500 hp and 3% damage tap, and 300/tick lifetap, they'd be worth using again and dropping a dot for them. Since those numbers will never see the light of day in a dev's note book, let alone on Test or Live, I'm not sure if it's worth putting on the list.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Dranul@Dec 27 2005, 07:25 PM
I used Degen once in VT because I wanted to get 5k hp. Good times, good times.

If the power taps were ever made significantly useful again, which would mean like 200 atk tap, 500 ac tap, changing Degen to extra 500 hp and 3% damage tap, and 300/tick lifetap, they'd be worth using again and dropping a dot for them. Since those numbers will never see the light of day in a dev's note book, let alone on Test or Live, I'm not sure if it's worth putting on the list.
My sentiments exactly, far more concisely stated!

However just because it's likely no-chance-in-hell doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for it.

You know (to offer something productive this time) it would scale better if the tap and recourse were some % rather than a fixed integer.

[Jebasiz]

Ok, I was off on the timer...They WERE usefull at one point.

I don't think anyone is suggesting re-implementing spells like this at this phase of the game...I mean stats are basically useless, anything under 50ac is a joke. Mods though? Give melee's a 2% dmg increase, hell give me a resist tap! I'd cast that shit all day.

[Dranul]

As much as I hate to admit, even a 2 point resist tap I would cast. Then again, I'm a regen and resist whore.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Dec 27 2005, 08:01 PM
Ok, I was off on the timer...They WERE usefull at one point.

I don't think anyone is suggesting re-implementing spells like this at this phase of the game...I mean stats are basically useless, anything under 50ac is a joke. Mods though? Give melee's a 2% dmg increase, hell give me a resist tap! I'd cast that shit all day.
Ahem, resist tap for 50+ to all that stacks with Protection of Seasons (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3444&source=Live), Talisman of the Tribunal (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3384&source=Live), Guard of Druzzil (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3242&source=Live), Dead Man/Men Floating (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=457&source=Live), Form (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3854&source=Live), and Aura of... (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=7826) lines plz :)
Min Duration 30min+

Of course even with a bard and the existing resist buffs im at max already, at 556 or so with mpg trial wins (5/6) and no overcap aa's.

[Warspite]

Hmm... how about a tap that echoes some of the Shaman buffs that came out with OoW? Perhaps a tap / group tap that would reduce the mob's chance to avoid or mitigate melee damage while giving the necro / necro's group an increase in those chances?

[Sarnath Creed]

If the power taps were ever made significantly useful again, which would mean like 200 atk tap, 500 ac tap, changing Degen to extra 500 hp and 3% damage tap, and 300/tick lifetap, they'd be worth using again and dropping a dot for them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/obsessivebuffy/wishfulthinking.jpg

[sauruman]

adorable pic!