pet hsate 62 vs 67

[Xatrekak]

i was looking at the decsrition of the spells and i knowticed that the lvl 67 one goes like this

haste:70%
dmg mod:5%
ac:33
str:0

and the 62 one goes like this

haste:70%
dmg mod:0%
ac:18
str:65

is it possible that the 62 haste could be an increase in overall DPS because str raises his ATK and give him a better chance to hit for max more often. I may do some parses later to find out but if yall know would just be a waste of time B)


*EDIT: to make easyer to read

[UsulDaNeriak]

you made my brain hurt, thx)

no, i guess you are wrong finally

Usul

[tullux]

If I remember correctly from playing my pally, STR does not do a whole lot. For players, it adds to attack, but only to the part that increases the damage you can do (like going from 100 to 200 str would let you hit for 102 instead of 100).

Barely significant and I have no idea if it helps pets at all. With minion of whatever focus, my pet's max seems to be constant 100 (102?103? - long time since I turned the pet hit spam off), no matter how many bst/shm str buffs I add, while pure attack buffs add a player's (and probably NPCs) chance to land a successfull hit.

So, both being a waste of an usefull spellslot (refresh timer is really annoying .. how overpowered would we be with 0 refresh - we could spam-buff our pet with haste?), I use the 67 haste because I can. :D

[Zaxlothon]

1: Increase Attack Speed by 70%
2: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 5%
3: Increase AC by 33

I think the damage modifier would only apply to kick / bash / backstab. It would be easy enough to test. Use the 62 pet haste and take the damage that your pet is hitting for and then compare that to the 67 pet haste. If the pet with the 62 hits for 100 average, the 67 should hits for 105 average, then you know that line 2 applys to all damage. If you don't see that slight increase in damage, then I would have to say that the two spells are interchangable, except when using the Rogue pet; the 5% would amount to more damage in that situation.

[Rijak]

strength effects attack, and attack raises the average hit, if i understand it correctly, not the max hit... so a higher attack would mean your pet hits for more on average, though how much 65 would add is up for debate (i think strength calculates a bit short of 1 to 1 with attack)... especially since we don't know what a pet's base strength is and if there is any cap involved

a skill damage modifier would effect max hit (and probably average too)

as far as i know, neither would effect how often your pet hits... that is tied to offensive skills

so... there may be a wash between the two... i guess you'd have to do a good bit of parsing

[tullux]

2: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 5%

I think the damage modifier would only apply to kick / bash / backstab.

It doesn't say combat skills (kick/bash), but all skills damage modifier. I'd read that as punch,crush,slash 'skill' (mainly because of the bst buff that raises those 'weapon skill mods').

Edit: I was referring to: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6740&source=Live


strength effects attack, and attack raises the average hit, if i understand it correctly, not the max hit... so a higher attack would mean your pet hits for more on average, though how much 65 would add is up for debate

Strenght affects only a part of the attack and iirc, it's only the max hit.
What you mean with 'average hit' is a mathematical average of dmg+dmg+dmg+.../attacks, but (also iirc), DPS classes have found something like a 'most common hit', that does not get affected by str.
In a few rounds it would look like
10 10 20 17 10 5 10 10 10 - 10 is your most common hit.

if you add str it would look like
10 10 22 17 10 5 10 10 10.
Your matematical 'average' would be higher, but by a tiny, insignificant amount.

if you add +attack (or +10% skill dmg mod??) it would look like
11 11 21 18 11 6 11 11 11 - your dps would have been raised by 10%.

Take it with a grain of salt, since it's been a long time since I actually read up on melee related stuff.
And maybe I'm a tad bit biased, since the effectiveness of the new skill mods that got introduced since PoTime (shielding/avoidance/etc.) seems more obvious (and therefor artificially capped quite low compared to shiteloads of +stats you can have) than the previous gains trough stat increases that had been parsed to be rather insignificant.

[lesk]

I know two things:

Damage modifiers affect max hit (like the 67 buff).
Pet Focuses affect max hit.

I'm fairly confident that +str doesn't affect max hit for our pets, but I could believe that it affects dps.

Attack works something like AC, in that the displayed value is actually hiding 2 distinct sub-values (or whatever terminology you want to use here). I've usually heard them called Accuracy (probability of not missing) and Power (distribution of hits over the spectrum of min hit - max hit).

Strength works into part of the Attack skill somewhere (probably on the power side, perhaps on both?). I believe the max hit increase observable on PCs due to strength increases is independant of strength's affect on attack (and independant of attack completely).

I believe (but haven't parsed...) that +str buffs might affect the pet's attack rating (and thus his melee dps) but do not affect his max hit, much like +sta buffs and mage pet-toy stats do not affect his hp pool (confirmed by dev's not too long ago).

Most of that comes from running around with a pocket shaman and *feeling* like kites take longer when wunshi et al are not around, like they *feel* shorter when a mage drops weapons in my lap.

I've never been a big melee dps kind of guy, so a lot of that is more observational than anything. I'm sure there are tons of posts on tons of melee-oriented boards that cover it better.

Hell, maybe I'll parse it.

[Hellandra]

Playing a DPS class, here's the observations I've made. None of this is proven or set in stone, just my personal experience.

1) Str does affect ATK, but it's negligible. Most melee classes end up maxed STR first in their overall stats, so it's kind of hard to guage the difference later in game. When getting shm +stat mod buffs, it's barely enough to notice.

2) ATK, in it's purest form affects both dmg output and more importantly.. accuracy. For example, when I blow Auspice of the Hunter, my max hits and hit frequency jumps in a noticeable fashion. Max hits seems to be affected less, but my "to hit" percentage does go up significantly. This is especially noticeable when using Trueshot, Guardian of the Forest, etc. How much this affects criticals is still unknown really, I've never really learned the calculus formula they use to determine crits.

So the question as far as pet haste would be.. does "Damage Modifier" mean that it affects damage output, or does it affect base attack. If it affects just the pure damage, then accuracy is not affected. Just the base hits are modified up as a percentage on successful hits. If attack is modified, then frequency of hits would go up in addition to the max hits could be. I would subscribe to the former in this case... being that it does not affect the atk, but only modifies the base hit, regardless of what it is. Logically, it would affect all forms of pet melee. To think it only affects some of their attacks would involve more coding, and we all know how much SoE likes to avoid unneccessary coding... unless it breaks something of course, then they are all over it.

If someone wanted to parse it, my money is on the 67 haste being more of a DPS output bonus over 65 str. It just seems, in my experience, STR really doesn't affect output much, especially a high level pet, but that's just an assumption. I'm willing to bet that if you parse different pets, your results would vary.

The only real exception I could think of would be on the rogue pets. Since they aren't really designed to mitigate, it MIGHT be better to use the STR bonus, since they are lower level than the warrior version pets. I'd honestly think it would really only affect backstabs enough to make a difference. I doubt 65 str would affect regular hits enough to make a real difference. I'll ask some rogue friends what they think about the atk vs str issue and see what they say. My experience is they are like crack fiends when it comes to attack though, since accuracy is key for them.

Interesting discussion though, I'll do some looking into it, parse out some pure melee stuff and see what I come up with. When you consistently have over 2k atk as a melee, it starts to be like splitting hairs. I can go hit up some Luclin mobs with insane HP's and probably come up with a good idea of what is affected in a relative short period of time.

[Arterian]

I could be wrong but I was in Lavastorm running to DoN merchant and let my pet hit a few things. Unhasted he was hitting for 98 summoned with the LDON focus, but after I hasted him he hit for 101. I believe that is what the damage modifer does, adds to max hit.

[Ashes]

This is an interesting topic actually. I like to have a pet that's enchanced, and have the foci 'Ritual Summoning' - Now, I hunt in Forgotten Halls at my current level, which is 68. Mobs there still hit pretty hard, so I pull the mobs with the pet with taunt *on* .. Pet can take a hit or two, giving me enough time to snare the mob, then /pet hold until I've cast my DoT's.

I wanted to try and give my pet just a bit more power, so, as I'm fortunate enough to own Holgresh Elder Beads I cast Eye of Zomm, target it via a hot key, and then cast either Crippling Claudication, Degeneration, or Succussion of Shadows. It's situational really. Succussion of Shadow's recourse adds an extra 18AC to the pet, handy for pulling. Degeneration's recourse adds 30 to the pets strength *and* stamina, handy for getting extra DPS. Whilst Crippling Claudication's recourse adds and extra 35 to the pets attack, *also* very handy for added DPS!

The reason I cast the spells on the Eye of Zomm is because the eye is so very low in terms of level my *taps* *never* get resisted. If I cast any of the spells on the mob I get a good deal of resists.

With this in mind, the foci gained from both Minion or Ritual Summoning *and* the level 67 haste spell makes Goober an even better aid.

Ashes of the Gift.

[Xatrekak]

ok, even after rewording it people still dont get exactly what i'm say so will try to make it blunt.

the level 67 pet haste makes your pet hit harder. we know that



the level 62 pet haste DOES NOT make you pet hit harder. we know that.


would tradeing to hit hard more often(*1) be worth giving up being able to hit harder






*1 the level 62 pet haste adds str which raises his ATK making him be able to hit for MAX more often but it does not raise the hardest he can hit

[tullux]

The 67 haste does not just raise the max, it raises every hit by 5%, including the max hit (at least that's how I read it). That's a 5% dps increase (in addition to the haste).
The 62 STR part adds a questionable -but according to melee parsings where 100+ str difference was parsed and led to a meager 2-3 dps increase- amount of attack.

If you waste mana and a spell slot for pet haste, go for the 67 one.

[Tulisin Dragonflame]

Testing on the mage forum indicates that STR has absolutely no effect on pets(yes, there is no reason for it to be on the pet haste spells), STA also has no effect, and possibly AGI.

[Xatrekak]

lol really? thats some pretty funny stuff

[Menelar]

Originally posted by Tulisin Dragonflame@Mar 11 2006, 12:57 AM
Testing on the mage forum indicates that STR has absolutely no effect on pets(yes, there is no reason for it to be on the pet haste spells), STA also has no effect, and possibly AGI.
Actually I think they tested it further and found that STR does actually affect pet atk rating. I can't find the post, but the same deal came up for the Mage.

Basically it was stated that Burnout 5 (lower level) pet buff with +STR and no Damage mod combined with their 55 Aura (%5 Damage mod) is more DPS than their top burnout Elemental Fury.

Of course this isnt possible without a mage in group for Necros, so i'd say the 67 is better for Necros.