Channeling Mastery

[Aegrusnecrox]

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7551/bs2hd.png

Just look at that screen shot for a minute or two and absorb it.

5 FD interrupts. One for absolutely no reason at all. This isn't just a bad day, this happens to me CONSTANTLY.

I have maxed avoidance, full def AA's, 15% shielding (which doesn't help the channeling, yes I know), Channeling Focus 3, and even Persistant Casting 3, and I still get interrupted 5 out of 5 times on a ONE SECOND CASTING TIME spell. This is insane, absolutely insane.

We NEED channeling mastery, it's not even a want anymore, in order to continue to be effective as a raiding class which is depended upon to survive the encounter, we need better channeling.

Paladins get it, why can't we? Of all the int casters, we are number 2 on the "must live in order for raid to continue" list, right behind the enchanter.

This is absurd, please, for the love of Innoruuk, fix this sony.

-Egg

P.S. On that first interrupt, I had taken about 5K damage from the train.

[Nelran]

Well, on the plus side...

Umm..

Umm..

You survive long enough to take 8k worth of damage?

LOL

Best reasoning I've seen yet. Send that to those devs who say we don't need it.

[Xelgadis]

The question on everyone's mind now is: Did you FD at bind?

[Brahman]

of course he did.

[Xelgadis]

In any case, that screenshot shows some things, but not all information is present.

For starters, you mentioned 'train'. While there could be multiple mobs with the same name, I only see 2 different names, and the incoming melee from those 2 names is about in line with what I'd expect from a few unslowed mobs from an OoW zone that's sub-MPG in difficulty, so we'll assume there were 2-3 ukuns with the same name. As the sources of incoming melee you're contending with increase your chance of channeling a spell decreases. This is primarily due to the fact that NPCs start their "attack round" cycles the moment they reach melee range, so while one npc may be in the delay phase of their attack round, another may be in the attacking phase of their attack round. Different 'races' of NPCs also have different innate delays, which can create some interesting spikes in damage intake, and thus lead to more push.

Secondly, several of the fails show no incoming melee, which could push you enough to interrupt a cast. This implies you were running, likely to get far enough away to fire off a cast without being hit. When you "stop" moving, there's a drift period while you slow down and then stop, casting during this drift period will usually result in you interrupting yourself. Turning slightly during the drift period will cause you to reach the "stopping point" faster, and allow you a greater chance to channel a cast.

Thirdly, which also happens to tie in with 'secondly', were you levitating? As great as DMF/FoE/etc. are, it's a well known fact that levitating increases the distance you drift and increases the push received from incoming melee, the latter moreso than the former.

----------------------------

This appears to be more of a technique issue than a class issue, to be quite honest, especially if it's happening to you consistantly, when most other necros haven't brought up similar 'consistant problem' horror stories. I've been summoned by nearly every major raid mob from Luclin forward: Barring fizzle curse type effects (pre-OoW), stuns, silence, being 1 rounded, etc. I'll usually channel FD and survive. If I get swarmed by adds during a wipe, then yeah I'll usually channel FD at bind, but this ties back into the first point I made. Usually getting swarmed by adds is a result of FD being broken by an AE, because Willful Death is a worthless pile of shit which needs to be addressed, but that's neither here nor there in this discussion, that's a rant all in itself. ;)

Knights get Channeling Mastery because they're constantly dealing with incoming melee as they try keep mobs on them and off the non-tanks. Enchanters get Channeling Mastery because the nature of their role tends to subject them to incoming melee more often than the other silk classes. Clerics get Channeling Mastery (I believe they do, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) also because of the nature of their role.

I don't feel Necromancer raid wipe survivability is very much different now than it has been in previous expansions. Zonewide AEs can affect it, certain AEs on some events can affect it, but that's really nothing different now than it was before. Because of this, while it would be great to have, I don't feel Channeling Mastery is an absolute necessity to Necromancers.

[Aegrusnecrox]

All of those casts of FD that went un-impeded by any hits had been made after I had been stopped for a significant period of time, around 10 seconds or more, along with every other FD cast you saw on that chat bar. The train wasn't huge, it was a 2 mob train, and I had been standing still for some time trying to do various things like snare, lifetap, and the like, all of which were interrupted.

The final 8 seconds of the fight included me trying to FD a total of 8 times, the other times you didn't see because the chat box cant be sized large enough to show the number of interrupts I had. I didn't try to run, I was standing still the entire time. This is because the ukuns in WoS run much faster than I do, even with RS5, so I knew my only hope was to channel an FD to survive.

There's some clarification on what exactly happened.

I understand that knights need it to channel spells while getting beat on, but when it comes to raid survival, the necros MUST be able to channel through an FD, pretty much regardless of the situation. If we cant channel FD's anymore, they might as well just take away our Rezz spell and give it to shadowknights, who can channel the occasional FD. It is literally useless to somebody who never survives long enough to feign, so why do we even have it?

-Egg

P.S. Yes I did feign at bind.

[Sarnath Creed]

I was under the impression that the FD ability was not a spell, and did not fall under the same Channeling guidelines. But then last night, I was meleeing with a low lvl toon with a procing weap, and when it went off, sometimes the Channeling skill would go up.


So are the DP skill and spell both under the same mechanics? or is the ability different in some way?

[Xislaben]

How did you get interupted the first two and forth times as neither mobs nor spells appeared to hit you?

[Schaeffer]

Activated AA'a have a mana cost, so therefore they count like spells towards your casting and specialization skills. What would be great is an upgrade to DP with a lower/instant cast time for the non-ubers who have +60% avoidance. :P

[Aegrusnecrox]

That's precisely why i'm making this post, I have no idea why I got interrupted those two times, but I did. I wasn't running and stopping, I was just standing there spamming the feign death key while the mobs were beating on me. This isn't the first time that very thing has happened to me before, infact it happens quite abit. I attribute it to the fact that we cant channel anything to save our lives, but who knows, it could be the stars aligned against me.

-Egg

[Nelran]

Originally posted by Aegrusnecrox@Jun 13 2006, 12:33 PM
That's precisely why i'm making this post, I have no idea why I got interrupted those two times, but I did. I wasn't running and stopping, I was just standing there spamming the feign death key while the mobs were beating on me. This isn't the first time that very thing has happened to me before, infact it happens quite abit. I attribute it to the fact that we cant channel anything to save our lives, but who knows, it could be the stars aligned against me.

-Egg
Happened to me as well a night or two ago in 69.1.

I snared and stood there waiting on the mobs. Hit FD and it fails for absolutely no reason.

I hit it again... Nelran has fallen to the ground. Stand and hit FD again. Loading...Please Wait...

You have Feigned Death.

Too well.

[GnekroeGnomicon]

Seems to me, that I almost always get interrupted on my first 2 casts of DP if a mob (of any threat) is wailing on me. 3rd time usually is good, but mobs that hit for 1.5k tend not to let me get that far. :P

[Nelran]

Originally posted by GnekroeGnomicon@Jun 13 2006, 02:06 PM
Seems to me, that I almost always get interrupted on my first 2 casts of DP if a mob (of any threat) is wailing on me. 3rd time usually is good, but mobs that hit for 1.5k tend not to let me get that far. :P
It wasn't even that for me.

I started casting before they got to me, and before they even starting hitting on me and it failed.

Second time was bad luck on the RNG that made me just fall to the ground...



And now that I think about it, did we get a stealth nerf on it where those oh so random failures are actually what would have been a fizzle if we were still casting the spell?

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by Aegrusnecrox@Jun 13 2006, 08:02 AM
All of those casts of FD that went un-impeded by any hits had been made after I had been stopped for a significant period of time, around 10 seconds or more, along with every other FD cast you saw on that chat bar. The train wasn't huge, it was a 2 mob train, and I had been standing still for some time trying to do various things like snare, lifetap, and the like, all of which were interrupted.

The final 8 seconds of the fight included me trying to FD a total of 8 times, the other times you didn't see because the chat box cant be sized large enough to show the number of interrupts I had. I didn't try to run, I was standing still the entire time. This is because the ukuns in WoS run much faster than I do, even with RS5, so I knew my only hope was to channel an FD to survive.

There's some clarification on what exactly happened.

I understand that knights need it to channel spells while getting beat on, but when it comes to raid survival, the necros MUST be able to channel through an FD, pretty much regardless of the situation. If we cant channel FD's anymore, they might as well just take away our Rezz spell and give it to shadowknights, who can channel the occasional FD. It is literally useless to somebody who never survives long enough to feign, so why do we even have it?

-Egg

P.S. Yes I did feign at bind.
I hardly call 2 mobs a train. You state that ukuns run faster than you do with run5, so how exactly do you get 10+ seconds of unmolested time in which to pray you'll channel the next cast?

You also state that you were standing still the entire time. One mob, let alone 2, don't attack that infrequently, even when slowed.

You also stated that you tried to FD 8 times in as many seconds at the end. Given that, you pretty much would have had to have been imitating a bard and casting on the run, else the 2 mob "train" would have been swinging at you the ENTIRE time.

You also never stated whether or not you were levitating.

This isn't an issue with the class, this is an issue with your technique and honesty.

The information you provide contradicts itself.

No, we don't need Channeling Mastery. If it were an issue with zone mechanics, Channeling mastery wouldn't fix that.

The end.

[Xebitikz]

http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/9886/yay5ql.gif

wee

[Aegrusnecrox]

Wether or not you consider 2 mobs a train is completely irrelevant. In addition, the runspeed of the mob doesn't make any difference on the speed at which the mob hits me.

Even so, that doesn't change the fact that I stood still, trying to channel a FD. I didn't even touch the arrow keys, and I get interrupted twice without even recieving an incoming blow. I dont know how it happened, or why it happened, but it happened and it happened twice, and it happens alot more than that on a regular basis.

The unmolested 10 seconds doesn't make any sense either. What you see there, according to the countdown timer of my FD, is 2 seconds of un-molested cast time. The seconds were not even consecutive, one full second was followed by hits, which would be in line with a train of mobs who hit at the same rate and hit me at the same time. The other 3 seconds in logged in the screenshot were very molested seconds, as I was being beat on for the duration of them.

I will state it now, I was not levitating while i was getting hit, I clicked off lev as soon as I got the aggro message from the 2 mob train.

__________________________________________________ ____________________
So, to recap, here is what happened:

I am running along with levitation, through WoS, at the wall, omw to MPG.

I get aggro from a train that included a see invis mob.

I immediately stop and see the size of the train, and ascertain that I can handle said train without having to FD.

I begin to cast a snare on the ukun, and I am then hit by the ukun and the snare is interrupted.

I try again and am once more interrupted, when the girplan joins the fight.

This round stuns me, I lose alot of HP, and decide to try to lifetap it back.

This gets interrupted too, so i decide to try and FD.

I click off lev, as I always do when I want to channel FD because I know lev fucks channeling up.

After I hit the ground when lev is clicked off, I start casting FD, and I am interrupted the first, second, and third time, at the interrupt of the third time the screenshot begins.

I don't move anywhere, I just stand there and cast repeatedly, and am interrupted each time, two of which seemingly for no reason, and I am finally killed, and the screenshot ends.
__________________________________________________ ____________________


Where you got the idea that that i have been standing somewhere and not getting hit for 10 seconds is beyond me, because it didn't happen that way. What i stated was that I had been standing STILL for 10 seconds, and was still getting interrupted while casting.

Here is the quote from my post to back that up:

All of those casts of FD that went un-impeded by any hits had been made after I had been stopped for a significant period of time, around 10 seconds or more, along with every other FD cast you saw on that chat bar.

If you choose not to believe me, so be it, I don't really care.

I am just bringing to light the fact that I see a problem in getting interrupted too much and that I think it could be fixed with channeling mastery, which improves the base chance to channel a spell, and an increased chance to channel a spell would have at least helped my chance to survive this encounter.

-Egg

[Schaeffer]

Alrighty, lets break this down. Egg, your second and fourth interrupts did not register any hits between the cast and the failure on that pic you posted. We can all agree on this.

Let's not bother with what constitutes a train. Let's not argue about things that are irrelevant to the discussion. The point is, there were unexpected adds, and you did not try to out run them.

Now this is where the confusion sets in. It looks from that pic, that there were at least 3 mobs, two ukuns and a girplan. I don't remember ever seeing an ukun take 6 swings in one round.

What Xelg is trying to say is that it looks like a lot of time between swings. Even if all 2-3 mobs swung at the same time and were on the same delay, it looks like a long delay even for slowed mobs, which they most likely weren't slowed anyway.

There's got to be a reason why you were interrupted twice while you weren't getting beat upon, and the logic points to the fact that you had to be moving. It's possible that there may have been a little client to server lag and the hits and interrupts were processed out of sync with the hits or something.

The point Xelg is really trying to say is that he feels it's not a game wide issue, or not that much of an issue in general, that he'd like it taking a spot on our top ten list vs better pet models or whatever the hell else is on there that will never get changed becase the devs think they're "gimmes".

Now can't we all just... get along?

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed@Jun 15 2006, 01:54 PM
But wait...there's more!

The patch from 6/13 completely changed channelling back to the way it used to work. Rashere says there was a bug that was causing channelling to work inversely to how it should. Consequently, owning more channeling AAs actually hurt the caster. Thanks to the genius fucking Rashere, he changed this effectively making it impossibly to channel anything through a few hits/stuns/bashes.

For necromancers, good luck trying to tank tap effectively now. I think Rashere has it out for necromancers. No spells in PoOR, nerf to the robe, and nerf to channelling (which really limits the tank tap). Rashere hasn't answered the question as to when the "bug" was actually introduced to channelling, and I personally did not notice any difference in channelling mechanics in the year and a half I was playing...but content has been designed with the bug in place as far as I can tell, and changing or fixing the "bug" seems rather short sighted at this point.

Here are a couple links:
Post your 6/13 patch day issues here (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=239994&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)
Casters can no longer channel (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=240355)

Maybe necros could benefit from channeling mastery now.
Wow that really fucks necs, encs, and clr in the ass.

[Nelran]

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed@Jun 15 2006, 08:54 AM
But wait...there's more!

The patch from 6/13 completely changed channelling back to the way it used to work. Rashere says there was a bug that was causing channelling to work inversely to how it should. Consequently, owning more channeling AAs actually hurt the caster. Thanks to the genius fucking Rashere, he changed this effectively making it impossibly to channel anything through a few hits/stuns/bashes.

For necromancers, good luck trying to tank tap effectively now. I think Rashere has it out for necromancers. No spells in PoOR, nerf to the robe, and nerf to channelling (which really limits the tank tap). Rashere hasn't answered the question as to when the "bug" was actually introduced to channelling, and I personally did not notice any difference in channelling mechanics in the year and a half I was playing...but content has been designed with the bug in place as far as I can tell, and changing or fixing the "bug" seems rather short sighted at this point.

Here are a couple links:
Post your 6/13 patch day issues here (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=239994&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)
Casters can no longer channel (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=240355)

Maybe necros could benefit from channeling mastery now.
I was wondering... Trying to PL that cleric, I was getting down to 30 and 40% life before I could finally manage a lifetap on an extra mob.

I think I may have one channeling AA, and it seemed that I was lucky to get any sort of cast off with 3 or more green mobs on me.

Day before patch? Completely different.

Say goodbye to FD, if we can't channel THAT though a mob whacking on us.

[Tulisin Dragonflame]

Thanks to the genius fucking Rashere, he changed this effectively making it impossibly to channel anything through a few hits/stuns/bashes.

No, he changed it so you no longer have a 100 % chance to attempt a channel check on *regular hits*. Interrupts recieved from push, stuns, and bashes were utterly unaffected.

[Xislaben]

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/...ssage.id=240355 (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=240355)

Trying to keep these things all in one thread, but I'm going to switch to using this one since it seems to have become the center of the discussion.

Regarding "spells being tuned around channeling being broken", its simply untrue. As I said elsewhere, we weren't aware of the issue until just a few weeks ago when we found the problem while looking for other things. Spells were always built with the idea that damage could interrupt you. Fast casting spells exist mainly because of that, for instance.

Also, in the other thread I mentioned that you make a channeling check each time you get damaged over the course of a casting. I was incorrect. Old code like this can get pretty convoluted and while it keeps track to see how many times you get hit or move over the course of a casting, its actually only making a single check at the end of the casting (which is also why spells fail at the end of the cast, not while you are being hit) so its NOT compounding your chances based on how often you were hit. You get one roll to channel no matter how much you got hit or moved over the course of a casting. For movement, though, if you moved beyond a certain amount you just lose the spell, period. Otherwise it basically counts as getting hit and forces that channeling check.

For reference, a level 70 character with a capped channeling skill of 220 and no AAs has roughly a 75% chance to channel through damage if they are casting a level 70 spell. That's their lowest chance to channel a spell. If they are casting a lower level spell, that chance goes up and caps at around 90%.

I also mentioned this in the other thread as well...but we don't really feel beholden to these old systems and I have absolutely no issue reworking how channeling (or pretty much anything else) works if necessary. At a glance, casters can get interrupted in way too many different ways...bash, kick, stun, movement, and damage to name the ones that come to mind immediately. In addition, low level casters get hit a lot harder than high level ones do since the channeling formulas give you a bonus for your level in addition to being based on a skill that starts low. So like I said elsewhere, once the initial shock has worn off and people adjust back to being more careful about casting their spells while in combat, we can see the real impact and change it as necessary.

And as someone else said earlier, NPCs don't use channeling.

Rashere

It's going to be really fun seeing how encs do on heavy cc raid scripts now!
I won't be around to rez recover, being FD at bind now.

Channel skill not working

I first noticed this when I made a new character. Before the patch I could be getting hit with a skill of (0) and sometimes I would be inturupted, after the patch my 68 Enchanter with maxed channel skill AND a few AA abilities was getting inturupted on EVERY cast, not even one single spell went off. Please don't tell me this is working "as intended", beceause if it is being changed to this for good then I will close my account and never play again. Not trying to sound threating, but I will close my account. Thank you, please, no flames, my FR is already low as it is.

[Xelgadis]

This one made me laugh a little.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KopiKat wrote:
Ok so that didn't work, and I cant seem to edit it to change it, so go ahed and direct yourself to the following link:

http://www.necrotalk.com/index.php?showtopic=6120

The first topic, look at the pic.

Explain that please.* I wasn't moving, I didn't have any levitation.* Explain.

This had never happened before, something is definately broken, or over-nerfed about channeling.

If you arent going to fix this, then please refund the 184 AA's I spent in defence AA's and channeling AA's.* Oh and also take away the necromancers rezz spell too, because it is useless to us if we cant channel a 1 second casting time feign death in order to survive to use the spell.

Thanks in advance,

-KK



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mean the SS that you took and posted pre-patch? Where you think there was two mobs but there was at least 3? Where every other poster on the thread believes you moved and caused at least 2 of your own interrupts?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KopiKat wrote:

If you arent going to fix this, then please refund the 184 AA's I spent in defence AA's and channeling AA's.* Oh and also take away the necromancers rezz spell too, because it is useless to us if we cant channel a 1 second casting time feign death in order to survive to use the spell.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since your post on that thread was from before this patch we can blame your demand for the current change?


You even said in your initial post in this thread:
Originally posted by Aegrusnecrox+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Aegrusnecrox)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>5 FD interrupts. One for absolutely no reason at all. This isn't just a bad day, this happens to me CONSTANTLY.[/b]

Yet, on EQLive, you said something entirely different:
Originally posted by KopiKat@
This had never happened before, something is definately broken, or over-nerfed about channeling.

Which reminds me of something I said in this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin-Xelgadis
This isn't an issue with the class, this is an issue with your ~snip~ honesty.[/quote]

Nevermind the fact you tried to use a pre-nerf screenshot to validate a post-nerf issue. :rolleyes:

---------------------------------------

In any case, channeling is fucked at the moment. I play a Shadowknight alot, so I can sure as shit attest to that. It'll get fixed, along with the other "easter eggs" in this patch, so quit whining about it.

[Xislaben]

What this thread tells me is that we need to better show other classes how nerfs that affect necros affect them as well, then thy'll complain enough to get it changed, never mind that it's working as the dev's intended it to work form the beginning.

[Nelran]

Ok, here's the scoop...

The bug dates back at least a year. For the time being, we're going to re-break channeling, putting it back to where it was before the patch, so you'll channel through damage 100% of the time if you have any channeling skill at all. Rather silly, but at this point its expected gameplay. The only difference from before the patch to after is that channeling AAs won't actively reduce your chance to channel...they just won't do anything at all for the time being.

In the near future, I'm going to take a look at the whole interrupt system and likely make some significant changes to it. At that point we can make channeling actually mean something again as part of the larger interrupt change.

Rashere

Oh. My. God.

They actually listened. Enjoy it while it lasts people, as the bolded part (my emphasis) probably means we're really screwed down the line.

[Aegrusnecrox]

I made the mistake of not being clear on what I meant.

When I said "had never happened to me before" I meant it had never happened to me before in previous patches. My bad, I am sorry.

I as for the posting of a prenerf screenshot on a post nerf thread, please read the follow up post that I had made:

Well, if you believe every other poster is 1 person, then yeah you're right.

On the other hand, now that I look at this thread, I realize that I wasn't paying attention enough to notice that this was for the latest patch. So, it seems as though linking that SS wasn't appropriate for the times, as this latest patch has apparently "changed" things for the better, although I havent noticed any change for the better.

Maby they fixed the phantom interrupts though, who knows.

-KK

P.S. No you may not blame me, because I asked for Channeling Mastery, not a revamp of channeling. Nice try though.


And until they fix the channeling, well, you might as well accept that people are going to whine about it. Yeah I know it sucks, but tough shit.

-Egg

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by Aegrusnecrox@Jun 15 2006, 06:18 PM
And until they fix the channeling, well, you might as well accept that people are going to whine about it. Yeah I know it sucks, but tough shit.
Yes, since people these days seem to think whining incessantly will allow them to get what they want, people will whine about it.

Small news flash, however...

Whining incessantly doesn't solve shit, 99% of the time. Whereas calm, informed, accurate discussion is far more likely to 1) solve issues, 2) piss fewer parties off.

Funny how that works. :rolleyes:

[Taiglin]

They are going to change the channeling issue back to its previous state with tomorrow's patch. Rashere did say he is going to look into the whole channeling deal soon and do an overhaul (highly probable). The "fix" really affected all casting classes.

To be honest this is the way the game used to work....way way way back in the day. I remember having to time casts between mob hits and still do that somewhat today but not like eons ago. Talking pre/early Kunark era. My guess is this became broken with the first line of anti fizzle/interupt AAs.

[Xelgadis]

Agreed, this is how the game used to be. But 2 problems currently exist:

1) Mobs generally hit faster now than they did pre-Luclin, I somewhat disagree with Rashere's statement that the trash delay is basically unchanged from what it was back then, it isn't a whole lot different, but it is somewhat faster. In general mob attack ratings have scaled at a faster rate than avoidance has (there was a huge spike with GoD, and it's scaled steadily up from there), so you're more likely to take hits now versus then.

2) Most of the oldschool players who were used to how the interrupt system used to work have long since stopped playing the game. What we mostly have now is a generation of players who never had to worry much about timing spells between melee rounds. Even many of the oldschool players have grown used to the current interrupt system, so this sudden change (without forewarning, or testing) caught them by surprise as well.

Had proper testing, and forewarning of the change, been conducted, the change would have likely been taken with some grumbling but overall would have been taken much better. Since it sounds like Rashere's planning on rewriting the interrupt system from the ground up, he may be inclined to actually test it this time (that's what we have a test server for :rolleyes:).

[Meph]

As a side note .... the post was written 1 day before the patch that "fixed" channeling.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Xelgadis+Jun 16 2006, 04:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xelgadis @ Jun 16 2006, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Aegrusnecrox@Jun 15 2006, 06:18 PM
And until they fix the channeling, well, you might as well accept that people are going to whine about it. Yeah I know it sucks, but tough shit.
Yes, since people these days seem to think whining incessantly will allow them to get what they want, people will whine about it.

Small news flash, however...

Whining incessantly doesn't solve shit, 99% of the time. Whereas calm, informed, accurate discussion is far more likely to 1) solve issues, 2) piss fewer parties off.

Funny how that works. :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
I don't know, I'd say getting a good volume of people whining on vet boards can indeed produce rappid change. Of course whether or not that change is positive, rather than a gut reaction based on the apparent unhappiness of a vocal minority of the client base, is something to be seen.

calm, informed, accurate discussion

That is the exception rather than the rule on SOE boards, however you could pick one or perhaps any two of the above and find it from time to time :)