Do you like our "invisible damage"?

[sauruman]

So I could ask a question of the week to the following:

"Being that necromancers are likable beings;
Is it possible to end the long period of solitude for our parsing damage? Can SOE add a function where you turn "on" a filter and dot damage appears? This would make it possible for others to see that necromancers like any other class have fights where we perform quite terribly, and others where we perform at a reasonable level. The only way in the communities mind to change this long-standing class warfare between necromancers and the envious is to bring all that raw data into the public domain for examination. This would help curtail premature nerfs such as the recent robe one by allowing a quanitative assessment of necromancer dps instead of vague unresearched inferences."



Arguements for this change:
- We would no longer be the subject of arbitrary nerfs in theory... When the devs say a statistic thats completely false to support a nerf, we can respond by, "parse me next raid you punk"
- It would be possible to catch anyone slacking on raids, which is a benefit for me as someone who watches for these things at raids
- There are some fights where we do SHIT dps, and the only way to prove that is something radical like this.


Arguements against this change:
- Some things shouldn't ever reach the public eye, such as our real dps on a few encounters
- SOE already has mechanisms in game that can calculate dps, even us necromancers anyways.
- There is a real potential for another massive nerf...



There is a lot more to say about this. I thought I would just open the floor for comments first, though. This debate will get heated, and my personal opinion is against this change, though I can see some of the positives that might derive from it.

[Mordred]

NO NO NO NO.

That about sums up how I feel on this matter. I don't want it even easier for idiots to post parses from our great fights on the sony forums. We do not want this option. The only way this option would benefit us at all is if people were reasonable and logical over there. They aren't therefore it will hurt us so I say again very very loudly:

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

[GnekroeGnomicon]

Unfortunately, by just bringing this into open public debate creates more chaos. If a necro were to argue against this, another class might say "Look they are hiding their DPS", which in return creates more nerfs because of the darned squeaky wheel+grease syndrome that unfortunately occurs far too often in eq.

By opening this to the public forums, you have all but doomed this to be brought forward to the devs - if not by us, then by rogues or what ever other class has /necro_jealousy. Whether they implement it or not would be another matter.

// For the record, I am a bit indifferent.

[Ckador]

I swear Sauruman is some Rogue's/Wizard's alt.

[Sathras]

Just to get your point: you want us to have a switch making our dot spam visible to others? Erm, WHAT? You can autoclick the "hide nec spam" button on others filters as I would be nearly insulted getting my chat flooded with unwanted nec dot spam.

If you(meaning other players) are really interested in what a nec does - just ask. And if you(now nec) want to educate some clueless morons you have to come forth with the logs yourself. They won't see it when you click on your SPAM NOW button.

Honestly, I'd vote for that being the most useless idea for pestering the devs.

[sauruman]

I don't believe that having a discussion is "harmful". This isn't national security fellas. As I said in my initial post, I'm against this idea personally. But necros by and large are a misunderstood class, and something like this would go a distance to bridging this gap. From what I've seen, 99.9% of players don't know what we do or understand how we function. The majority of devs don't even know. We are a complicated class no question, and this hidden damage is part of the contribution to that happening.

Do I think anyone would ever have the dot damage showing? No, probably not. They would get spammed as we all do and would quickly turn that off. I don't think I could handle seeing all dot damage myself, that would be pretty crazy.

I didn't think this idea would win much support, but its just one of those things I can't afford to assume, I have to ask. Its come up many times in the years, even by veterean necros. Lets see more debate and less NO NO NO NO NO 'cause that never helps ;)

[Nelran]

Originally posted by sauruman@Jun 28 2006, 02:52 PM
I don't believe that having a discussion is "harmful". This isn't national security fellas. As I said in my initial post, I'm against this idea personally. But necros by and large are a misunderstood class, and something like this would go a distance to bridging this gap. From what I've seen, 99.9% of players don't know what we do or understand how we function. The majority of devs don't even know. We are a complicated class no question, and this hidden damage is part of the contribution to that happening.

Do I think anyone would ever have the dot damage showing? No, probably not. They would get spammed as we all do and would quickly turn that off. I don't think I could handle seeing all dot damage myself, that would be pretty crazy.

I didn't think this idea would win much support, but its just one of those things I can't afford to assume, I have to ask. Its come up many times in the years, even by veterean necros. Lets see more debate and less NO NO NO NO NO 'cause that never helps ;)
Alright, how about this.

I'm joe random other DPS class. I feel like I'm not doing enough damage compared to another person. Doesn't matter if I suck playing my DPS class, not geared like I should be, etc.

I turn on DoT Spam. I go through each encounter with the necro's, watching their damage.

I pick the, say, 5 highest parses I can find on 5 different raid mobs.

Then I can go complain that OMG, necros are so ungodly powerful, nerf them.

Doesn't matter that I took the parses of the highest, not average. I'm not showing the low end parses because of certain mob's near immunity to poison/disease/magic/whatever.

And any necro's that come back with parses that are lower, on different mobs, I can then say "Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean it's not possible. Look at what you can do, it's way out of balance with XXXX class."

Now do you see why we don't want a 'turn on DoT Spam' button?

[Sathras]

I believe your assumption is wrong at the beginning. Showing dots would NOT help others realizing what we do. Those people who do know what the classes can do and what they can't do inform themselves about it. And not only by passivly watching a fight but by asking questions.

A log can only help to substantiate certain claims you make. Or disprove them. But they won't stand on their own. And alot of people would only see the big number logs. The fights where you had a hard time landing anything would be brushed aside with a "nec is slacking" comment.

So I'm still absolutely against a button WE have for activating the spam. But it would be ok to make dot damage visible for all. But I want an apropriate filter(show/mine only/hide) too.

[Xislaben]

SOE devs know what classes are capable of, more or less, but have the tools and access to get the information much more reliably than players.

I'd love to have the ability to parse everybody, optionally, if I so chose to do so.

While I see a potential for people cherry picking parses for e-penis nerf demands, I would hope that devs have a more realistic idea of class dps and where it stands regardless of player whining.

People call for nerfs now, and all they see are some of the top parses, supposition, and the paranoid opinion that the cabal of evil necros hide things on purpose. If you let them optionally parse you all over then the picture changes, drastically, and I bet they would be shocked by how different reality is from their assumptions.

I can't know what effect it would really have, but there's a chance it would be a beneficial one beyond the beneficial ability to measure and direct raid dps. Anybody know the reason why dot's are not parsable by design? Was it probably due to spam? Well with filters we can easily take care of that now, if it was really the only reason to initially not show it.

[daephyx]

Completely unneccessary, and a waste of time. Use the oppurtunity to pester them about the issues we care about.

[Felicite]

If you think our DPS needs to be hidden to be kept.. thats a losing battle.

In casual/group settings, I think people that have no clue might actually get one if they were exposed to the "real data". I remember this one LDoN group I did with people who had never seen a real live Necro before and them asking "how come you get the kill shot on every mob". As I have written in the past, I have been passed over for a Druid to fill an Omens group (for damage dealing.. not healing/buffing.. ffs).

In raid settings.. Xis is right. There are parses out there.. and they always hurt us. This would allow a true picture.. and would allow guilds to acturately parse. Or, is the true picture so good it needs to be hidden? In which case.. living a lie is a short term solution at best.

I think in the long term, having all player damage available (and filterable off, too) is in everyone's best interest.

Like I get a vote. =p

[Lylith]

I see no point or benefit to making the numbers easier to feed into the class nerf maniacs that populate those boards. They are ridiculous to the extreme.

People who know eq and how to play it already know what we can do. They already know the role of the Necormancer for raids, exp groups and lore/myth in eq.

You cannot apease the masses. They are stupid and think only of their immedaite circumstance/needs ( food, sex, EQ uber exp for themselves, whatever). That's what those boards are - least common denominator. I read them for fun, but never for any real info. Don't expect intelligence or reason from them.

[flufbunny]

Saruman reroll pls you may play a necro but you arent a necro.


1. more spam for people to complain about
2. whining about our dps for whatever good fights from rogues and wizards
3. discussion about DPS = bad and never constructive. Never draw attention to something so volatile
4. We have other issues you should be concerning yourself with like say our worthless trap spells..willful death... etc
5. Common sense says dont look for a fight when you can avoid one... and you just seem to be trying to stir the pot. Im with CKador i think your a wizard or a rogues alt.

[Silayn Test]

Sauruman you are an idiot.

Ok with that out of the way... And saying that felt really good.

Look outside the box Everyone. If they were to fix it so that you can tell dot damage from outside the casters viewpoint it would mean our trap would work.

Who here wants to keep our trap spells?

Having to show outside dot dmg means they can evetually add a foci to it. Therefor making our trap better then what it currently is.

Spam filters are easy and will take a few times to get them right, but the issue is the way damage is recieved in combat and in spells.

Look at Nukes, Damageshields, melee they are all pretty simple in the big picture. Now lets look at things that they cant get right. Other types of damage. How does sony classify our Lifeburn? DD with dot recourse that cant be modified because it doesnt fall into any catagory?

Making this as an issue to show other classes meaning they are going to have to fix certain aspects that we dont even want from this class. Even discussing it is pointless. They will spend to many man hours trying to improve the coding.

It is true sony does have ways of showing dps. Zajeer has wonderfull tools for weapons/gear/effects. But rytan was an idiot he did have the tools for dps calculations with spells but never really understood the necro class.

I for one would rather have an aura then a trap...

PS i talked to Zajeer about the OoW robes and got a really good answer i have been sharing with other necros... The robe wasnt a nerf it was a Fix and were better off because of it.

[Tryal Anderror]

If I sat for hours and hours in a room with Johnny Knoxville, Adam Sandler and George Bush, I still do not think we'd be able to collectively arrive at a dumber Idea than Sauruman thinks of on a near daily basis.

Resign as our Correspondant for your own safety and peace of mind.

[Aryse Andenter]

Originally posted by sauruman@Jun 28 2006, 07:52 PM
I don't believe that having a discussion is "harmful". This isn't national security fellas. As I said in my initial post, I'm against this idea personally. But necros by and large are a misunderstood class, and something like this would go a distance to bridging this gap. From what I've seen, 99.9% of players don't know what we do or understand how we function. The majority of devs don't even know. We are a complicated class no question, and this hidden damage is part of the contribution to that happening.

You poor poor sad misguided person. This discussion is incredibly harmful. No matter which side you argue, it has the potential... almost the guarantee... of negative results.

This kind of thing would help absolutely nil getting necros to be more understood.

If we argue not to show it, we're hiding something, we're protecting something. But I think letting other players get this information is worse.

The problem with necros is the huge variation in necro damage and playstyle, not just from fight to fight but most importantly from necro to necro. This will NEVER be accounted for by devs and nerf-callers.

Guilds and individuals won't look at the average of necro DPS. They'll have four necros in the guild, and they'll ignore the DPS of the lower three and base all of their nerf calls on the DPS of the top one (who may very well be doubling the DPS of the others - hi, I did this in Triality - hell, we had a necro who was out-DPSed by an enchanter on one fight. Yet look at all the nerf calls coming from that guild anyway. They are not based on average necro DPS.). Then they'll look at a fight where we do lower DPS, and instead of balacing it against the high DPS fights they'll just bring up twitch arguments all over again (its not like they're strong in math or anything for the majority). Consider on nerf calls how often they cite our many abilities - absolutely ignoring that they are not part of raids where we are producing the DPS. We trade our own utility when we choose to put out high damage, this is our balance, but other classes are incapable of grasping this, and knowing our damage will do absolutely nothing towards educating them about something like this.

Do you want to see what other necros are doing? Think you could guide them to play better if you knew what they were doing? You do already!!! Turn on spell casting awareness - this will provide more useful information to helping another necro play better, or knowing when someone is slacking off or doing something wrong. Seeing another's DoT damage doesn't do any of that at all.

Some necromancers are possibly overpowered. It is a class that when it is played perfectly, it can do absolutely incredible things. But, this is not what the average necro does - it is not representative of the class. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no belief that they will balance to the average player. They will balance to the top player, and then will hurt the vast majority of players of the class. They currently have some capability of seeing DPS. However, if guilds can start producing parses of the best of the best, it is a whole different ball game.

Have I now provided enough text for you to simply accept my NO NO NO NO? I don't see how that is not helpful, or why you require a debate. That's a pretty clear answer to how someone feels about the subject. This isn't rocket science (at least, not to everybody else).

...
Why would you provoke a discussion that has an enormous amount of issues and NO RESULT that we want. I don't want it shown. I don't want it hidden. I simply want it NOT DISCUSSED at all.

[Ankhe]

No I do not think that this is a good question to ask. Lets try getting answers on things we want fixed instead of bullshit like this.

[Brahman]

dear lord if ever you wanted to nazi mod now would be the time.

just fucking delete this trash.

omfg...




what a fucking idiot...

let me make FULLY clear how i feel about this.

I BRAHMAN SWORN ENEMY OF Aryse Andenter AGREE WITH HER FULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

[flubuk]

jesus.titty.fucking.christ

are you really *this* clueless, or is this some kind of joke?

try putting some effort into something usefull like our PoR spell or OOW robe nerf instead of pissing around with crap like this

/shakes head in stunned amazement

[Jebasiz]

I can't see anything positive coming from making our damage visible.

I'd like an explanation on how pet focii work.

A damage increasing aura.

More AA's related to ME not my freaking pet.

I'd like to know why Zajeer said NO focii will work at it's maximum effectiveness post level 70 that's currently in game.

Ermm..other people seeing my dmg, really can go to hell. There's nothing good that will come from that. Shadows are our friend, lets remain there.

[nnigma]

Theres enough spam now in chat windows, dont need another..I agree with one poster if u put that in,make it have option for mine only/show group only..
The only thing I would like to see is Dot crits in white text like melee/dd damage/exceptional heals,and ofcourse the need of a filter for that option too.I enjoy seeing crit blasts/exceptional heals and would love it more to see my DoT crits in white text also..just besure to have option for show mine only/show group only etc...


Far as others seeing our damage,nah, I like being invisible to them. Most ppl know what we can do or cant do. As we know what their classes can and cant do. Like one guy said we dont want to add fuel to the nerf bat fire.... :) Cause some fool would just parse our biggest damge fights and not the overall average...
just not something we need or any class needs for that matter...

[Rijak]

I don't think it matters one way or another. SOE knows exactly how much DPS all the classes do, as do the informed players of any class who tend to be the 1% that argue such things when it comes to class issues.

All that said, it's a pointless discussion. It doesn't help or hurt, and most people would filter out the spam anyway. I turn of everything but my own spells, including PC melee and all crits.

[Jebasiz]

LOL @ battle spam from 4+ necros on a raid! Everyone's parse file would take 20mins to open. Which in itself might be a cause for some support for this. Then again, it's so completely and utterly fucking retarded...that it should of never been brought up to begin with.

Sauruman,
YOU need to recognize what position you're in and how you bringing up a discussion like this is FAR more detrimental then some noob that hasn't figured out how to work Jalp yet, and thus wants his damage parsed for him.

Next time you think of posting something, don't. I honestly feel..I'd rather have no correspondant then one that can be detrimental like you tend to be.

[Graveka]

I don't think it matters one way or another. SOE knows exactly how much DPS all the classes do, as do the informed players of any class who tend to be the 1% that argue such things when it comes to class issues

You must never visit the Soe boards if you think this.
Its the uninformed masses that have no clue that jump on the nerf bandwagon at the first sign of blood.

I agree with you on the topend who raid/group with necros who knows what the class can do. At times we are the top of the dps chart. At other fights we dont even show up in the top half.

We can already parse our dmg and put out the info if its called for. Why shoot ourselves in the head and give them the ammo needed to get us nerfed. Being in the shadows is better imo.

[Jebasiz]

Even from a roleplay perspective it makes no sense. HI, I'm a necromancer and here is EXACTLY what I'm doing! We're supposed to be secretive..it's part of what makes us so damn sexy (except gnome necromancers..F them).

[nnigma]

heh, just realized sauraman is our/on our Class correspondant? How could you even bring this subject up? The topic makes it more like ur a noob.../sigh

Your supposed to be on our side to help not hinder. NO class wants to hear their CC bring up issues that hurt the class no matter what the intentions might be..

[GnekroeGnomicon]

/de-rail
(except gnome necromancers..F them).
BAH JEB! All I can say is BAH!
/re-rail

[Rijak]

Originally posted by Graveka@Jun 29 2006, 10:53 AM
You must never visit the Soe boards if you think this.
Its the uninformed masses that have no clue that jump on the nerf bandwagon at the first sign of blood.
I know that the uninformed bitch about nerfs/inequities on the boards, but the ones that end up actually becoming part of the game are the well expressed ones by the 1%. Not to say that they are always good for necros, but that is how it happens. A detailed parse of a current day fight holds a lot more weight then 100 forum trolls screaming about stuff.

Personally, I'd rather see all damage "invisible". I think people focus waaay too much attention on it and lose sight of all the intangibles that make up a great player.

[Jebasiz]

If they focused on themselves they just might perform better. Nevermind the fact that to max out our dmg potential we need 60-65% focii on 4 lines of spells, Epic 2.5. Detrimental mana pres. DoT extension, and spell haste...as a minimum. That's not all that easy given the itemization of DK, RT and DoB. I believe melee have that aspect easier..

[UsulDaNeriak]

i would like to strongly advise:

no further questions. stop it, damnit.
we forwarded enough questions and our top ten list to sony
we should get at least 1 answer, before we think about any further questions.

Usul

PS: and please, stfu about our dot dmg.

[sauruman]

I'd like an explanation on how pet focii work.


Thx for next weeks question.


Next time you think of posting something, don't. I honestly feel..I'd rather have no correspondant then one that can be detrimental like you tend to be.

What have I done that is detrimental? We are supposed to be passing ideas to SOE, but with the boards being as dead as they've been, in particular this forum, I wonder how we are supposed to do that. Great ideas take courage to stand up for them. If you have some great ones, lets discuss them. We are supposed to be guiding the role of the necromancer for the future, but without debate, we won't have a say in the decisions the developers have to make. For me, this discussion proves necromancer like their unique role of hidden damage. I know its a big reason I still play a necromancer. Its part of the mystery. An attack on this style of play would inextricably be an attack on the necromancer itself. I think any SOE employee browsing this thread would get just that idea. But without this discussion, and a developer unfamilar with the necromancer, how would they know?

[Mordred]

The problem is they might just take this idea and make it happen even though we don't want it.

FOrtunatly something I didn't think about until Silayn said it is that game mechanics wouldn't allow for this.

THe problem people have sauraman is sometimes saying something at all about somethign can be detrimental.

You want areas on what we want improved upon? Give us an aura and get rid of the trap spell. Fix Willfull Death. Get us upgrades to dots in next expansion. FInnaly upgrade Lifeburn so it's useful like double damage or somethign cause right now it's jsut a big nuke and even then it's not all that special.

Those are some realistic issues that we bring up time and time again. Any class that got a trap spell in por got screwed. Aura classes got useful stuff they need to change this.

Willfull death is a useless pos.

Lifeburn is sorely outdated.

Dot upgrades is somethign we always want.

That should keep you busy for awhile.

[Jebasiz]

The whole aura thing is a double-edged sword. Right now..after a wipe or for initial buffing/rebuffing during raids, our role is consistent until people say "mob X inc" or "rush" or whatever..and of course that role is /g hey we're buffing huh? somerandomgroupmember tells the group, yes. you tell your group, cool afk. be back in 10...

If we had an aura..we might actually have to be at the keyboard to use it. That'd hose everything.

[mr_pain]

Sauruman, while I can understand why you would think of this idea to bring it up does make you look somewhat nieve. There actually ARE people out there intent on screwing the necro class, we really do not want to give them any more tools than they already have....

Anyways its posted. Personally Im suprised that the devs didnt do this a long time ago; however since its obvious that their codebase is a rats-nest its probably very low down on the things to tinker with list.

I personally like our invisible damage for the exact opposite of most. Im not uber. My guild seems to think that debuffing is optional (along with communiation) - in short my damage output often sucks. Im DAMN glad that my DPS hasnt been visible sometimes because I might as well have been AFK for the evening (maybe with a nodding bird hitting an /assist /cast Mind Flay key once a minute.).

Best idea in this thread though? Delete it.
________
Live sex webshows (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[Xebitikz]

If you ask me...this is a mute point, and a silly Idea all around. It is basically saying "hey i've got nothing to hide look at me!"....This is a game, not politics. It serves no function that I can see.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by mr_pain@Jul 6 2006, 11:32 AM
Sauruman, while I can understand why you would think of this idea to bring it up does make you look somewhat nieve. There actually ARE people out there intent on screwing the necro class, we really do not want to give them any more tools than they already have....

Anyways its posted. Personally Im suprised that the devs didnt do this a long time ago; however since its obvious that their codebase is a rats-nest its probably very low down on the things to tinker with list.

I personally like our invisible damage for the exact opposite of most. Im not uber. My guild seems to think that debuffing is optional (along with communiation) - in short my damage output often sucks. Im DAMN glad that my DPS hasnt been visible sometimes because I might as well have been AFK for the evening (maybe with a nodding bird hitting an /assist /cast Mind Flay key once a minute.).

Best idea in this thread though? Delete it.
This is great. While I expected a degree of animosity towards the idea for fears (likely justified) of the information being used in nerf demands, I never expected anybody to argue against it because it would allow their guild members to see how badly they sucked!

[Schaeffer]

Yeah, I don't wanna know how much better Gnek is than me, thank you very much!!!

[Jebasiz]

Having a raid that doesn't debuff a mob is hardly the necromancers fault. We all know how craptastically our own debuffs land, even with the proper help from shaman, enchanters, druids and bards..without all of that(if not shaman atleast mages), anyone's dps would be less then stellar.

You could try to stress what type of situation that leaves you in and seeing if it can be fixed. If you can't land anything on a mob, chances are..other people are in the same position as well. That's just a breakdown in raid discipline and will be REALLY limiting as you progress.

[GnekroeGnomicon]

Yeah, I don't wanna know how much better Gnek is than me, thank you very much!!! Bah! Once we both get our epics, it will only be a matter of a few hp :)

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by GnekroeGnomicon@Jul 6 2006, 09:26 AM
Yeah, I don't wanna know how much better Gnek is than me, thank you very much!!! Bah! Once we both get our epics, it will only be a matter of a few hp :)
Schaeffer outdone by a noam? Say it ain't so lizard. Say it ain't so...

[GnekroeGnomicon]

Hehe, Schaef has always been my benchmark since I moved to Drinal. Everytime I was doing something new with guildies - I would be hesitant, but then they would accussingly say "Schaef could do this with ease! Why can't you!"

Schaef is the mentor, I am but the padawan.

[Schaeffer]

Yeah, then I took 6 months or so off and you flew by me. You went and got all your 69/70 runes and a bunch more HP/Mana. I've been using Savus as a crutch to pull 69.1's too. Z started harassing me because I was only pulling two at a time instead of 3 like Gnek does, lol

[Arkaron]

I do not believe this would be healthy. If people want to know our dps, we can post our own parses. If people have issues with your parses, it's time for a new guild.

If people are concerned about others doing their job, they can buy Spell Awareness and bust Clerics for being inefficient whores.

[FCseven]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Jun 29 2006, 02:46 PM
Nevermind the fact that to max out our dmg potential we need 60-65% focii on 4 lines of spells, Epic 2.5. Detrimental mana pres. DoT extension, and spell haste...as a minimum.
heh I bet less then 5% of necros across all servers even reach that minimum.If dots were to become visable I can easily see people posting the absoulte best parse from an engame necro and saying the whole class needs a nerf.

[Hangman Gallows]

The creater of this thread probably is a cleric who wants all dots taken away from neros so all they can do is twitch. How did you become the corrispondant? I advise all necros everywhere to just keep this fucktard out of the loop and just have someone who knows the game and the necro class to be the new coripsondant. I know this asshat does not represent me and my ideas. Send someone hard nosed and intellagent maybe Tryal or someone with equivlant intillect to deal with these nazi SOE devs.

[Schaeffer]

We do not get to choose the correspondent and we do not get to impeach him either. You can quit wasting your breath or you can quit playing a necro, not much else of a choice.