Another disguesed nerf-necros thread?

[Xislaben]

linky (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=263463)

"Should a necro who can solo from 1-75 and 100's of AA's do as much DPS in a group?" etc etc etc

[Jebasiz]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v256/A_Bug_01/giveafuckometer.gif

Let'em bitch.

[Mallakith]

7 pages and they only bitching about rogues cant see a problem )

[Schaeffer]

Yeah, had to go on and steer the conversation there a little. The first post said how come necro's can solo and are still awesome dps in groups and raids, but rogues are not always the tops dps in groups and raids and can't solo for shit.

I basically posted a couple of times saying the problem with rogues is not that thier dps isn't top, it is and it's also the most consistent, but rogues lack group desireability because of the lack of utility.

That pretty much steered from the necro hate i think.

[Aryse Andenter]

I do like how the guy's original premise was that rogues weren't desirable in groups and that they wanted to give up all utility for greater DPS to be more desirable. And then person after person posted that the reason they aren't wanted in groups is that they have zero utility, and increased DPS won't help them get groups more. Worked out well for us that he had a stupid premise :) And maybe people are a little tired of the rogue bashing necro deal I hope too.

[Lylith]

have cake and eat it too... they screwed themselves over by focusing only on dps.

I have a rogue. She was my first toon when I came back. Post 50 was a ***** to get groups, so I played other classes till I settled on my necro as my main. Fixing poisons might help, but overall, the class is too much about just back stabbing. NeverWinter Nights had awesome traps. I have long felt that eq should pursue traps similiar to implementaion in NWN.

[Schaeffer]

After Luclin and the PITA that SSRA was at the time, people wanted to take out the necessity of having a rogue. There are ways, and I believe some good ideas actually came out in that thread, that you can make it beneficial to have a rogue in your group without causing a complete roadblock if you didn't have one.

My Guild Leader's main was a rogue, now it's perma parked in SSRA incase anyone wants to mess around there and it's pretty useless for anything else. Fixing Poisons is another great idea, or adding combat abilities similar to berserkers, which is what they should've done for rogues instead of adding another class (no disrespect meant to Zerkers though).

[Jebasiz]

Heh, they listened to single-minded people and screwed the class as a whole IMO. They could've easily given rogues a little more mitigation and some combat auras instead of creating berserkers. They could give them numerous utility items now, but the "community" which basically consists of 3-5 very outspoken people reject them. It's really just stupid.

Utility is never a bad thing.

[nnigma]

I play a zerker also,and I just consider zerkers version 2.0 of rogues,lol. They do great dps(not substained like rogues,but still good),have utilities that make them usefull in group/solo/raid situations. The zerker is what rogues should of been,imo.
Just Zerkers suffer from lack of knowledge from the community. Though I do see more and more zerkers being played. Iven been playn mine quite abit lately,just now Ive started replayin my necro.

[Zandramadass]

Post like this are just ignorant... I mean seriously I only went 5 pages and that took effort. The original poster stated he was tired of never getting groups (unless he put them together himself) and thinks adding dps to the rog class would get him more invites.

Quoted 4-5 pages later by that same poster:

The topic of this thread was directed toward nonrogues as to what would make a rogue more appealing to groups. I think you've got your answer and you don't like it.

Groups wants utility.

Rogues want DPS.



You are correct, I got my answer as to what groups want. It confirmed that rogues do not add much to a group.



Three solutions 1)Give them ability so solo somewhat

2)Make it so casual group wants them due to DPS (May screw up Raiding game) (Here is where itemization comes in)

3)Give them utilities groups want (personally dont think Rogues should Buff, mezz slow etc, imho



Maybe there is no solution. *end quote*

He has been told repeatedly to get groups rogs need more utility not dps and his 3 solutions are:
#1 ability to solo - wtf does this have to do with grouping?
#2 make is so casual groups want them for dps - ummm wasnt it just said that groups want utility over pure dps? why ask for input if your not going to listen to it?
#3 give them utilites that groups want - followed by his belief rogs should have no utility...

Itemization might not be superb but when your told little to no utility makes you undesireable in most cases adding more dps to your class still isnt going to get you invited. Base increase to the class would seem a little out of order anyway considering rogs are consistently in the top 5 dps on raid targets anyway.

So to summurize (sp) my opinion of shit such as this...

If you ask the communities input regardind something listen to it with an open mind or dont ask in the first place. If you got a problem with your class compared to another class reroll your char to that class cause if you think you should have something you dont its just a char creation button away.... besides your prolly terrible at your current class anyway if you spend all your time worrying what others have instead of perfecting the skills you do have.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Zandramadass@Aug 3 2006, 02:20 PM
So to summurize (sp) my opinion of shit such as this...

If you ask the communities input regardind something listen to it with an open mind or dont ask in the first place. If you got a problem with your class compared to another class reroll your char to that class cause if you think you should have something you dont its just a char creation button away.... besides your prolly terrible at your current class anyway if you spend all your time worrying what others have instead of perfecting the skills you do have.
Well put

One of my favorite quotes from "Way of the Gun" is:

"Why do you ask for advice if you're not going to listen"

Sorry you don't like what you hear, deal with it or move on...

[Hangman Gallows]

My favorite quote is "fuck off"

I hate when people who suck at thier class and dont know shit about a class give input about it. Or just give that why dont you reroll bullshit

Why are people so unwilling to get the class fixed.

BTW, i didnt read any of that topic, just the quote. But that is the typical response from people who just dont give a shit about that class.

[Brahman]

you really should read the thread before opening your mouth about it then.

You really don't get just how badly the rogues are treating themselves.

the rogues DO NOT WANT the class fixed. They ONLY want 40% more DPS then any other class and they are convinvced that will get them groups.

[Hangman Gallows]

40% is too much, i'd go with 20%. What else are they good for besides drags?

[Lylith]

...that's the point. You don't need them for CR. They can't pull as well as monks. Their class is not balanced and don't fit the current play set needs for mission/raids. They're static circa 4 years ago.

[Brahman]

Originally posted by Hangman Gallows@Aug 3 2006, 03:26 PM
40% is too much, i'd go with 20%. What else are they good for besides drags?
it doesn't matter how much dps they are.

unless they are making 40 second fights last 4 or 5 seconds that wont get them groups.

They can't get the DPS boosts they want (or even your 20% recommendation honestly) without destroying ALOT of raid content, and they pretend that they can't tank for shit even in uber end gear (bullshit btw...). They lie and say they can't solo for shit... They are denying they are 1/100th as good as they are. FFS a rogue posted in that thread saying he can kill non-stop in the EPs and solro for pharming, the other rogues go on to post that soloing in the Eps doesn't matter cause its such old content. Well i have news for you that content hits harder then WoS, and even MPG is fairly similar.

The ONLY thing they want is game breaking DPS. They are ruining their own class.

[Zandramadass]

I have no problem with classes needing fixed... just about all of them have some serious problems. I DO have a problem with people who want things that the devs wont give them because not only would it imbalance the game more it wouldnt solve their main complaint at all.

One mental giant even went so far as to say while upping rog's dps might unbalance the game all the devs would have to do would be to raise the mobs hp (all mobs in game no less) to balance out the dps increase making rogs more important to groups. Ya thats intelligent... screw every other class in game just so you can be proud of the size of your E-penis.

Itemization will help mid game rogs with some dps gaps but that doesnt alter the fact most people setting up pick up groups do so looking specifically for classes with some form of utility be it back up healer, crowd control, back up tank, exc exc... rogs need utilities that are worthwhile not dps and until they as a community realize this and start acting on it they will continue to stagnate.

I also stand by my reroll comment. If a person is constantally worried about what other classes have and bitch about it they are 99% of the time the same people who cry NERF NERF because they never learn to play thier classes in the first place and if they are so worried about being able to solo then they should either make a solo'ing class alt or stop to smell the roses in the 50's farming some AA instead of lvling up to 70 w/o getting the bare minimum if any AA. Not that it would matter honestly because you either have the dedication to learn to play a char to their potential or you dont and changing classes wont change your dedication in the least. It might however give them some insight to the difference between a well played char and someone who just goes thru the motions.

[Brahman]

rogues make decent off tanks in groups at that...

Assuming they are not trying to be casters and grouping in content well outside of their gear...

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Hangman Gallows@Aug 3 2006, 04:13 PM
My favorite quote is "fuck off"

I hate when people who suck at thier class and dont know shit about a class give input about it. Or just give that why dont you reroll bullshit

Why are people so unwilling to get the class fixed.

BTW, i didnt read any of that topic, just the quote. But that is the typical response from people who just dont give a shit about that class.
Ah, maybe then you'll appreciate my favorite quote from the Big Lebowski then:

Walter Sobchak: Were you listening to The Dude's story, Donny?
The Dude: Walter...
Donny: What?
Walter Sobchak: Were you listening to The Dude's story?
Donny: I was bowling.
Walter Sobchak: So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...
The Dude: (interrupting) Walter, Walter, what's the point, man?
Walter Sobchak: There's no reason - here's my point, dude, there's no fucking reason why these two...
Donny: Yeah, Walter, what's your point?
The Dude: Walter, what is the point? Look, we all know who is at fault here, what the fuck are you talking about?
Walter Sobchak: Huh? No, what the fuck are you... I'm not... We're talking about unchecked aggression here, dude.
Donny: What the fuck is he talking about?
The Dude: My rug.
Walter Sobchak: Forget it, Donny, you're out of your element!
The Dude: Walter, the chinaman who peed on my rug, I can't go give him a bill, so what the fuck are you talking about?
Walter Sobchak: What the fuck are you talking about? The chinaman is not the issue here, Dude. I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line, you DO NOT... Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.
The Dude: Walter, this isn't a guy who built the fucking railroads here. This is a guy...
Walter Sobchak: What the fuck are you talking about?
The Dude: Walter, he peed on my rug!
Donny: He peed on the Dude's rug.
Walter Sobchak: Donny you're out of your element!

You're missing the point, even 40% more DPS will not make rogues more desireable in groups, utility will. Please stop wasting everyone's time by chiming in when you have no frame of reference.

[Jebasiz]

I like the comment of "we explode like casters when we get hit". Ya..right. A rogue with 2k more hps then me can last 3 rounds, THEN pop a disc at 20% and last another 3 without a single heal on roley, redfang or hatchet. We get hit for 5-6k 3x in one or two rounds, fd or die! It's the same!

[Zandramadass]

Originally posted by Zandramadass@Aug 3 2006, 03:44 PM
One mental giant even went so far as to say while upping rog's dps might unbalance the game all the devs would have to do would be to raise the mobs hp (all mobs in game no less) to balance out the dps increase making rogs more important to groups. Ya thats intelligent... screw every other class in game just so you can be proud of the size of your E-penis.


Another thought on this guys idea.... hmm... dps classes needed more cause of increased hp on mobs... lets get that wiz or nec anyway over the rog cause if things get hairy then can save us with an evac to safety or by kiting or FD/rez if not recoverable. So once again UTILITY ftw...

Besides if you think about it groups are set up with utility in mind incase things get hairy and upping mobs hp would only increase the chances of Murphy's Law comming into play.

Nice quote tho Schaffer! The Big L.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Aug 4 2006, 02:22 PM
You're missing the point, even 40% more DPS will not make rogues more desireable in groups, utility will. Please stop wasting everyone's time by chiming in when you have no frame of reference.
I'm not following you here, existing rog dps makes them pretty desirable in groups. Rogs are my #1 choice for dps spots in non-kiting xp groups. +40% DPS would make any sane person not pick any other class period.

[Schaeffer]

Are you being sarcastic?

[Jebasiz]

Don't mind the gnome..he's almost as "dps centric" as those rogues are!

[Schaeffer]

Damn...

I hope he realizes if you have 4dps classes in a group and took out one for a rogue because they have 40% more DPS, you're only getting an average of 10% more DPS, which on group mobs is negligible.

I'd take an extra snarer/slower/mezzer over a 10% dps increase every single time.

[Jebasiz]

Group content is stupidly easy for the most part and if you're in a good group of 4-5 you can fill the 1-2 spots with any class and be successfull. Rogues help, but they're pretty much "only dps". If you get a chanter or shaman, how much more dmg is your tank(and say monk for puller) and monk gonna do with shaman buffs..or a chanter nuking, mezzing, slowing, hasting and c6'ing casters, GoB'ing necros? Could say the same for beasts, even a berserker could aura and snare!

That's why people want other classes. If an equivalently skilled, knowledgable, geared and aa'd berserker and rogue were lfg at the same time..the berserker is gonna get the tell first, unless someone either needs an aug made(rogues can do some combines with poison crafting) or a door unlocked..

It has nothing to do with a lack of disparity in dps..but more to do with the fact that other classes make people more effective and people like being more effective.

[Lylith]

lmao. they keep getting better:

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/...ssage.id=268797 (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=268797)


to summarize 14 pages:
'dps makes us sexy, give us more... we don't want anything but to be the Greek Gods of dps and nerf necros. kkthnxla~'

/puke. what a load of horse doodoo! they have no *****ing clue and dig themselves a deep hole each and everytime.