new pet hps [Archive] - Necrotalk.com

Jebasiz

10-12-2006, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Brahman@Oct 12 2006, 10:53 AM
yeah my warrior pet with RSS royals focus took three rounds to kill in prenerf Ashengate. I imagine tahts a pretty god damn good tank in alot of stuff. Just because we can't solo with it tanking doesn't mean it can't tank shit ;)
Actually, that's exactly what it means. If it can't tank good enough for us to solo with, it can't tank shit.

I can tap tank black legion mobs(in direwind) without a pet..it'd be nice if a warrior pet would give us some functionality beyond what we can do without him(he can't tank those either). As it stands now..I summoned him, never hit pet hold(in groups) and if something spawns on me, or hits me before I see it..he agro's it and dies(or gets loh'd/enrages) and I only take a round of damage. He should serve more a purpose then that and ~100dps.

Xislaben

10-12-2006, 05:52 PM

Ah I didn't mean to imply it could tank for shit, I was just shocked that it lived is all.

New pet = better speed bump, and slightly better survivability.

GnekroeGnomicon

10-12-2006, 07:10 PM

The pet is friggin' amazing now, honestly. If I get a snare resist on a mob, I can sick pet, it grabs agro and I have enough time for 2 recasts of snare at least before pet dies, against lvl 73-75 mobs in icefall... I can't complain about that at all.

We are never going to get pets that can actually tank, but an improved speed bump is what we needed and we got it.

// This doesn't address true raid survivability but it solves I believe most non-raid issues with pets survivability.

Brahman

10-13-2006, 12:02 AM

I have enough time for 2 recasts of snare at least before pet dies,

thats long enough for duoing with a cleric to heal for your pet to be an option in some places though ;)

thorwahl

10-13-2006, 01:23 AM

Well, the pet actually tanks better than me for a change and thats something at least!

Fayed

10-13-2006, 04:55 AM

was soloing grey legion oother day and resist was resisted, sent pet in as speed bump, maybe i just got lucky but i was able snare and pull pet back before it hit 25%. was mappily supprised. Still cant tank WOS though.

GnekroeGnomicon

10-13-2006, 02:38 PM

thats long enough for duoing with a cleric to heal for your pet to be an option in some places thoughThat is kind of what I was getting at... the pet no longer just rolls over and dies. And honestly unless it is tanking two 70+ I rarely lose a pet anymore in kiting... because you have ample time to resnare and pet hold, or pet fd a couple times.

Zandramadass

10-18-2006, 03:06 PM

New 72 war pet has roughly 9750hp with Time focus and no buffs.

Figured out last night while working archery on an alt and healing him.

Ewasx

10-19-2006, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by archerphate@Oct 13 2006, 04:55 AM
was soloing grey legion oother day and resist was resisted, sent pet in as speed bump, maybe i just got lucky but i was able snare and pull pet back before it hit 25%. was mappily supprised. Still cant tank WOS though.
North or south WoS? I was screweing around a bit on the south wall before doing some 1.5 and 2.0 fights in WoS and the 72 pet with the buyable don focus and was taking down mobs np. Bazu were a little tougher than ferans/chimeras, but none of them posed any real problem. Was able to heal him just fine and still dot/fd.

Was also using him to tank the entrance mobs in sol ro, could take 2 at a time if I had to.

Jebasiz

10-19-2006, 10:48 PM

Necros in OoW beta were tap tanking chimeras around the zone in and out in that first field. I don't really care if a pet that's level 70-72 can tank them. The bazu are a bit tougher..but only hit around 700(IIRC). Our pets should be able to tank mobs that aren't light blue/green to them.

Originally posted by gnekro
The pet is friggin' amazing now, honestly. If I get a snare resist on a mob, I can sick pet, it grabs agro and I have enough time for 2 recasts of snare at least before pet dies, against lvl 73-75 mobs in icefall... I can't complain about that at all.

I think it's more a function of previous pets being next to worthless vice these pets being "friggin' amazing now. It's kind of like a mid-western dude going to Atlantic City and having his first lobster. He might love it(since he never had one before), but if he went to Maine, and had that lobster first..that crap in Atlantic City would suck.

I don't expect to pet tank for great exp, we aren't mages. I would like to have the ability to send my pet in on a dark blue con (current content), and him not lose 25-30% of his hps every round. Black legions, or even slowed undead in Direwind destroy our pets. Icefall mobs do to(except for the snow bunnies). The buffs we got do make a difference, if we sacrifice close to half our spell bar for pet spells we get a decent tank(in steppes) for mobs that give 2-3% of aa per kill. That's still pretty sad. Atleast they *can* live through some ae's. Just not ashengate(raid) ae's..

Tap tanking > pet tanking imo. If for nothing else, the mobs die like 300% faster.

pizer

10-21-2006, 05:07 AM

the new pets dps isn't all that bad either, with just pet toys he was 190 dps on shyra (but of course that's all backstab gravy). he seems around 150 dps average in groups

jago668

11-05-2006, 09:40 PM

btw, the pet doesn't have to have 14k hp. A cleric friend of mind crit healed himself for something around 100k. The amount healed, and what you crit for don't have to be the same thing if you have less hp than the crit amount.

So you could have healed pet for 9k hp, but the crit will still show 14k.

plastikmelter

11-05-2006, 10:01 PM

yes but then when it says you healed boner for 13956 (or whatever), that shows how many hps he had. since the pet was at like 3% or something its basically 14k

Lortania Sar`Armitra

11-14-2006, 08:03 PM

13-14k isnt to bad ...but ya wish they could tank ...be nice to have pet tanking and stuff ...but im happy wiht agro kiting why i choose necro loved it hehe also ahve mage twink , but havent played it inawile :(

Jebasiz

11-14-2006, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by pizer@Oct 21 2006, 12:07 AM
the new pets dps isn't all that bad either, with just pet toys he was 190 dps on shyra (but of course that's all backstab gravy). he seems around 150 dps average in groups
The warrior pet actually parses higher for me lately. It wouldn't in that situation, but in anything where he might get stunned, the warrior is probably a better way to go. Also, he'll live longer.

Just base dmg on raids(no mage weapon procs) my warrior pet is around 130dps, and actually had like 90k total on stitch last time..going again tonight. AE's are a bit rough, and I barely kept little Janer alive last time, so I'm pretty sure I'll use the warrior again.

sycik

11-14-2006, 09:27 PM

I'm not 75 yet, but I definitely share the sentiment in wishing that blojober did have slightly higher survivability.

I've been doing Vxed recently and if he gets aggro at all, he's dead. One rounded. Doesn't matter which pet I have out or which buffs he has.

Although, if he is fully raid buffed, he'll stand for an extra hit or two. (Hit, not round)

Xislaben

11-16-2006, 04:44 PM

I used the new war pet unbuffed to pull the named prince in nro3 last night. Pretarget with rog (or eye of zomm) and stand outside at the back of the building and send pet in.

You get 2 adds with the named, but it's much faster than clearing!

Jebasiz

11-16-2006, 04:54 PM

heh, we just had a monk run in and agro him..pull him out and I'd darkness the name and fd. After all the adds went home we killed the named and then did something less annoying.

Xislaben

11-16-2006, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Nov 16 2006, 05:54 PM
heh, we just had a monk run in and agro him..pull him out and I'd darkness the name and fd. After all the adds went home we killed the named and then did something less annoying.
I did try talking people in to that first, but most thought it was a bit of a suicide run :)

Zandramadass

11-16-2006, 06:23 PM

Whats wrong with that? I dont know why so many are so timid now days. If its not dangerous its usually boring so why not spice up your game time.

Heh most fun i've had doing something like that was when my old guild was doing Uqua. We lost 4 monks rapid fire trying to split the beamoths and I was moving before the raid leader even sent me a tell. Ran in got the one burned DI and moved to raid at 10% life give or take... DI dropped and so did I, but I got the job done and enjoyed every second of it.

Xelgadis

11-16-2006, 07:15 PM

The higher HP, and Spectral Guard (and Aegis of Calliav, on shit like Stitch), help with pet survivability somewhat, but the core issue of innate avoidance still hasn't been addressed. The reason pets avoid like ass is pretty easy to figure out actually, if you think about it.

Pets are NPCs, and built around a basic NPC model (not graphic model). Even the most evasive NPCs still avoid hits like shit, else the melee classes would spend all day doing little else but miss (which would cause intense whining from those classes). Unless they address this innate shortcoming of NPCs, on pets, they'll never avoid hits any better than a caster with no avoidance AAs.

Spectral Guard is a step in the right direction, but that buff drops far too quickly for it to really be a viable solution. The only real solution would be a solution that didn't involve a 3rd party (ie. a buff). Whether or not Prat would feel inclined to go into the pet database and hand tweak the avoidance of every pet in the game is a tossup, but I wouldn't hold my breath, considering that this has been an issue for years and it still hasn't been addressed.

Jebasiz

11-16-2006, 07:24 PM

If spectral guard actually did what it does now for 36mins..I think we'd be alright. Also, mages are asking for a "pet affinity" for worn mods. Like avoidance, atk, accuracy and so fourth. If it's recieved warmly, it's probably something we should pursue.

Zandramadass

11-16-2006, 07:54 PM

Pet affinity for worn mods is great idea actually because those who truely have pet survivability issues are higher end folks (mostly raiders) who have maxed avoidance/stun resist with a decent amount of dd/dot/shielding worn mods anyway. If this were given to the pets we wouldnt waste our time healing them as they would be taking the same decreased dmg that we do on those troublesome AE's.

I wouldnt think it too overpowering either as that sort of gear usually has a required lvl on it of the 65+ range so while non raiders may not cap those mods they can get some with a little time spent in DoN, DoD, PoR, TSS zones.

Feellia Flo

11-16-2006, 11:14 PM

Or jack up their AC super high like Luclin high end mobs.

Xelgadis

11-17-2006, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by Feellia Flo@Nov 16 2006, 07:14 PM
Or jack up their AC super high like Luclin high end mobs.
Melee classes still bitch about that to this day. Yet it seems rather retarded that every mob since has had the AC of a wet paper bag, while some mobs it's like.. good luck landing many spells (if any, in some cases).

Xelgadis

11-17-2006, 04:40 AM

Originally posted by Xelgadis@Nov 16 2006, 03:15 PM
Pets are NPCs, and built around a basic NPC model (not graphic model). Even the most evasive NPCs still avoid hits like shit, else the melee classes would spend all day doing little else but miss (which would cause intense whining from those classes).
Just to kind of put that into perspective:

I parsed my Shadowknight's overall avoidance, back at level 70. Gear since hasn't changed a whole lot (couple aug changes mostly), so the Magelo profile should give a fairly accurate representation of what I was working with.

In any case, at level 70, against a basic level 70 NPC, over the course of like 10 or 11 (can't remember which) solid hours of being attacked:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/1386/avoidancedk9.png

(Note: Block = Shield Block)

That's the overall avoidance a tank class, who's geared in Qvic/Time/Last Blood can expect. Had worn avoidance been maxed, and perhaps had an Improved Dodge effect, that number may increase to 65%, but I wouldn't expect it to get much higher than that. As it stands, tank classes are already avoiding nearly 2/3 of incoming melee (on average), NPCs avoiding that much you can easily see would generate no end of complaining from melee classes.

ikis

11-17-2006, 03:15 PM

Are you guys putting gear on the new pet? I've seen a marked improvement in surviveability on my pet when fully equipped with gear. And it dosen't have to be mage summoned stuff either. A trip to the bazaar to buy some cheep stuff, or smith some banded armor and Mr. Bones does alright tanking. (I'm only 54 right now though.)

I'm guessing the armor goes a long way towards redressing some of the AC problems pets have. AC moves the avarage hit further away from the max hit, so even a little bit more helps. I wonder if it helps much on the new pet.

Jebasiz

11-17-2006, 03:57 PM

GnekroeGnomicon

11-17-2006, 04:04 PM

The 49 pet was exceptional for it's level and could tank without any help in a lot of areas for decent exp(atleast during kunark). I think that has more to do with anything then armor(although it can't hurt). That pet just owned.

Not just that it was an exceptional pet compared to previous pets but... (other factors)

1. There is a huge power leap for mobs mid50's on up. So the 49 pet felt amazing because every (war) pet afterwards is facing 'super charged' mobs relatively...

2. Pet gear (and gear in general) relatively increases the hp/ac of the level 49 pets far more than later pets

Jebasiz

11-17-2006, 04:11 PM

not really so much for kunark and antonica(when we got that pet). If you had your 49 pet pre-velious, your pet was godly.

GnekroeGnomicon

11-17-2006, 04:22 PM

If you had your 49 pet pre-velious, your pet was godly.Of course, but how many pre-PoP zones are really used for xp in the 50+ leveling nowadays? My guess even with Hot Zones they are probably uncommon.

The 49 pet for the time was relatively a far more powerful pet than we had seen before, relative to the power of the mobs it was a god. Now flash foward to now when you can upgrade it with summoned items that increase its power relatively far more than even before.

The 49 pet do to its uniqueness for the time and due to the fact that you receive it before mobs dps/hp really ramp up can really be an amazing pet, but it is unique in that sense compared to our other pets.

The point being, things that increase the relative power of the 49 pet are going to make him even godlier for the time that he is used, compared to later pets which are more powerful yet relatively are far weaker (to mobs) than the 49 pet so won't benefit as much using summoned items and armor.

Xelgadis

11-17-2006, 07:14 PM

The easiest solution to the pet avoidance issue would be what the mages have suggested- a pet affinity that allowed pets to be summoned with the master's mod2s. That will increase pet survivability significantly, but wouldn't encroach upon the tanking classes, which is ultimately the best solution for the entire playerbase. However, that solution is virtuallly impossible to implement currently, as pets are pretty static (on the data side).

One of the developers' projects is to change how pets are, on the data side, to be more dynamic (on the player's end, no difference will be seen). That change would allow for the flexibility of pets necessary to support a "mod2 affinity", currently it's just not feasible.

ikis

11-18-2006, 08:07 PM

I'm seeing much grreater AC, some HP, and even shielding on the new summoned armor. I think with the right buffs the new pet could probably tank as well as your avarage under geared, under AAed tank can these days. Which is to say not well.

Xelgadis

11-18-2006, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by ikis@Nov 18 2006, 04:07 PM
I'm seeing much grreater AC, some HP, and even shielding on the new summoned armor. I think with the right buffs the new pet could probably tank as well as your avarage under geared, under AAed tank can these days. Which is to say not well.
AC to NPCs is strictly mitigation, there's no avoidance to it. Hence why you could land hits on Luclin raid mobs all day long, those hits just tended to be for less damage on average than anywhere else in the game.

Shielding is also a component of mitigation (everyone seeing a theme here?). Shielding takes that percent (up to 35%) off of the mob's DB when it hits you.

There hasn't been an issue with pet mitigation for a few years now, pets mitigate damage fine, the issue for years has been shitty NPC avoidance translating to shitty pet avoidance (as pets are simply NPCs with a special flag that links them to a master). Hell, even a charmed player avoids like ass in comparison to non-charmed players with the same gear, as a charmed player is (in essence) an NPC and as such uses similar avoidance calculations that are used for NPCs. You can give pets all the mitigation you want, if they can't avoid for shit, then all the mitigation on Norrath isn't going to help, ultimately.

Most of the ways I keep seeing people suggest as to how to address the avoidance shortcoming comes in the form of boosting the living fuck out of their mitigation and/or jacking their HP. That would probably work, in the short term, but it's really masking the issue rather than solving it. Masking an issue is a "solution" that usually doesn't last forever, better to address the core issue now and be done with it, else masking it will likely make the issue far worse down the road.