Charming Undead

[Valexa]

Hi, new to the board and thought I'd start off with an involved question, lol.

I'm a lvl 57 necro who has, unfortunately, not taken a great deal of advantage of our line of undead charm spells. Mostly because I'm chicken about doing so when not grouped.

Last night however I was in a Hate group that I felt could keep me alive, and was charming ire ghasts to use as pets. To say the least, they were incredible, hit for 286 max and very fast. Max level the 54 charm would let me control.

The first time I would charm them, it would last a pretty long time, several minutes. However, when they would break charm and I would recharm, each recharm seemed to last less and less time, til I was recharming a couple times a minute and the pet was worthless so the group would kill it. The enchanter in the group was keeping the pet tashed so charming was easy and it never once resisted my charm, it would just start to break very quickly.

Now here is my question, how much effect does cha have on charm for us? So many necro items have negative cha effects. I am a DE, so my cha is base 65, and I am using a Hand of the Reaper (-30 cha) which is actually my only negative to cha atm, so I normally have a grand total of 35 cha. I can't imagine that's good for charming, hehe. Even buffed to 85 cha by our enchanter didn't seem to help.

So my question for the masters on this board is: how can I make charming undead pets more viable for use in groups, but also solo? They make amazing pets, but seem to be too much work and risk at the moment for me.

Thanks,
Valexa Za'Thex
57 Tier'Dal Necromancer
Drinal

[Doomfir]

Another thing you can do to make your charm more manageable is to have a druid or ranger snare it while mezd and before you charm it.. that way it isnt running at you full speed when it breaks..

I really dont feel like getting into the CHA debate again. My own experiments indicate that it does have a marginal effect on charm duration.. but there are those that have other experience.

[Ahura Mazda]

Aye the "whether CHA has an effect on charm or fear" debate is one that will never be finally decided until SoE comes out and plain says if it does or not.

From my experience CHA has had no effect on charm duration.

The only thing that has ever helped me in getting a better charm duration is lowering the mobs magical resistance.

Do the test yourself and see. Charm a mob 10 times and use a watch to check the duration. Then use a shm/enc or get an orb of Tishan and lower the same mobs magical resistance and then check the charm duration.

When I did this test the avg Charm duration on WoT without debuffing the mob was 52sec (this is with 10 attempts on a Crusader in Veksar). The avg charm duration on the debuffed mob was 8m32s. In other experiences I've had WoT last over 10minutes on a debuffed mob.

To me this clearly showed that the only way to increase charm duration was to reduce the mobs magical resistance.

Again, until SoE lays claim to what is truly correct try the test for yourself and see which is the best way.

[Valexa]

Hmmm, so without any way to debuff MR on my own, does that make charming undead pretty much only an option in groups? That's disapointing to say the least, but I guess I don't have to worry about my Hand of the Reaper anymore.

Thanks,
Valexa Za'Thex
57 Tier'Dal Necromancer
Drinal

[Schaeffer]

Whatever you do, don't let them cast MR on your pet, an enchanter buddy of mine learned that the hard way.

[Ahura Mazda]

Buy an Orb of Tishan. Slow the undead mob, melee it until the orb goes off. Mez the mob, charm and then wait for mez and shackle to wear off.

Voila you have a charmed mob with debuffed MR.

[Doomfir]

Try that melee bit with a powerful enough mob and you are just dead. I would never own an orb of tishan and melee a veksar highborn commander with it for example. It all just sux when it comes to our charm is all. Use it and just pray it holds long enough to kill the other mob.

[Xovian]

Charming is definatly high risk.

Is the reward worth the risk? Depends what your trying to charm, and what your trying to kill with it once you have.

I can't say id charm anything in veksar unless i was going agaisnt a tough mob. The Remains comes to mind, its high risk but taking down a mob that can hit for 800 solo is nice as well. I've also been forced to charm to fight the Chef, when he has two weapons equiped ( knife being one of them ), he can hit for over 600 a round slowed, with max hits being around 450. Needless to say he will chew through our pet, but agaisnt a cook, he is a joke provided your charm holds.

Only good thing about charming mobs is their damage stays the same as if you were fighting them. If they generally hit for 250ish, with a quick buff you can have them doing around 400 or so. Charmed mobs = very fast killing, even on some high hp mobs. The risk is if the charm breaks you dont have long till your toast.

Question is do you want that high risk but highly damaging mob to take something out, or will a DC or your normal pet work just as good? Thats what it comes down to wether or not you will charm or not.

Just something to think about.

- Xovian Drakan 65 Necromancer, Brell

[Ahura Mazda]

Doomfir I use my orb of Tishan all the time on Highborns and Highborn commanders. With Shackle and Force Shield waiting for the Orb to proc is no big deal at all. The orb usualy procs within the second casting of Force Shield.

Try it before knocking it. This is a tried and true method of dropping MR on undead mobs.

Our charm doesn't suck. You just have to have the patience to know how to use it correctly. If you cant survive a slowed highborn using a rune then you need some serious work on your HP or you shouldn't be there in the first place.

It is a very situational tool, but a very good one to have if you know how to use it.

[Doomfir]

I am glad that is you and not me. As for knocking something I havent tried it is simple; any tactic that depends on necro's meleeing and a RANDOM time proc on a weapon to work is crap. Is it worth doing? Maybe if the gain outweighs the risk. I consider that using charm which is random duration in time.. and based on a random time till proc of a weapon is subject to far excesses of either in time and therefore left to the rare use. I would personally rather risk a premature charm break than to go up to a high level mob (not some <140 dps mob but some 400+ single hit mob) and start meleeing him in the hopes that my weapon will proc before he beats the crap out of me or I have to spend a fair amount of mana lifetapping back what he is taking.
Highborns hit for 400+ quad attack which means a possible of 1600 dmg in one round of attacks (though normally they hit for a total of 800+) even slowed. So you cast lifetap.. melee.. oops done beat another 800+ out of you lifetap... etc. I just don't think this is a regular use option for 90% of the players.

If you slowed the mob on inc so he doesnt knock you dead once he hits you, you just slowed your charmed pet which is useless and charm might break before the slow did. If you didnt pull with slow and he came at you under full steam you will be cooked in very short order. If you mez him you will break mez when you melee him to get orb to proc so we are back to square one. I am sorry bro I cant see anyone meleeing an unslowed highborn in veksar solo under any conditions whatsoever no matter how good your gear is unless you are in a group where someone else is taking the real dmg.

As I mentioned earlier, I personally prefer to use a charmed mob while grouped with either a ranger or a druid because they have a 10 minute snare which makes handling a high level charmed mob much more manageable. Just stand far away from him and you should have plenty of time to remez, retash, resnare, and recharm when it breaks.

A note on orb of tishan.. It would only be used when a shaman or chanter is not available for the other casters in the group in any high level encounter. Even then the loss of his dmg while handling that thing might not outweigh the benefit. It is a situational use at best. If it was righ click effect I would definitely own one! but alas.. it is combat.

<edit>
Thanks for the note about the journeyman's walking stick vs the orb of tishan. I forgot all about that stick till you reminded me of it. I used to have one on my rogue I got out of OS in crypt camp.

[Xovian]

Actualy orb of tishan is Bard, and int caster only ( unless its been changed recently). The journeyman's walking stick is the one that is useable by all others.

I agree with Doomfir on this one, a random proc in the hopes it helps hold a charm which is random is not worth doing. Even with a tash landed on a mob, it could still break at the first tic, that is the nature of random spells.


- Xovian Drakan 65 Necromancer, Brell

[drewz21]

Well being on level 53, almost 54 I haven't had to charm yet. My pet and I have been able to handle everything I've hunted. I also have a 56 Enchanter and I've tried charming before. I just don't trust it. Everything about it is too random. If the mob is rootable, would it be better just to let pet tank and then cast another one after it dies?

I don't know, just a suggestion.

Oh and as far as tanking, at my level I've tanked a few things while casting or trying to keep my pet alive, keeping that defense skill up, but after seeing the damage output on some of these mobs I'd think twice about it at higher levels.

Good hunting.
Jos.

[Ahura Mazda]

You people really need to try something before saying it wont work.

BTW considering this is a necro forum why would it matter that the Orb is INT caster only?????

Look, using a charmed mob is a great way to get awesome pet damage. If you're afraid of dieing or give up after failing two or three times then YES charming isn't for you.

It's beyond me the people that are "guessing" how much damage they will take and how that makes it not worth it?? Why would you listen to someone who has to guess abuot something when you have someone who has done it.

I've been using my orb to debuff potential charm targets for nearly a year, IT REALLY WORKS! Charm duration can easily get to and over 10minutes while using it. Does it always, NO! Sometimes the charm will break after only a minute or so and OMG sometimes i've actually died from that. However with a debuffed MR most mobs dont drop after that short duration or if they do the second cast of charm gives a nice long usable duration.

Please dont listen to anyone who hasn't actually tried it. If you notice the only ones that are saying it wont work are people who haven't actually used the technique themselves.

Look at my magelo, I dont have uber gear or stats by any stretch. If I can make this work then most anyone can.

Hell, you know what. If you are a CT necro and want me to show you that this works, reply or send tell in game and I will glady take anyone that wants to to any undead camp of their choice. If im full of s**t then you can come back here and post all the flames you want.

[Xovian]

On contrare, i never said i havnt tried it, cause i have. So dont put words in others peoples mouths.

I will stand by what i said, charming and trying to rely on a proc is inconsistant, and still just as unreliable as just flat charming. Period.

And by the way, i've also done the same with an enchanter friend, generally he is the one charming, and he always tashes em first. From what we see the duration is only slightly better, but still inconsistant.

Like i said before if your charming its cause the reward vs the risk is to ones advantage nothing more.

<Edit>
( people do have alts, so the relevance of who can use the orb is useful information to all who read these boards. )

[Doomfir]

Who says I am guessing at damage?? lol.. dude anyone in here will tell you I LIVE in veksar. I solo at the highborn camp etc.. I KNOW what they hit for. I am just saying orb of tishan is crap. If it was right click fine.. but combat limits its use for group experiences at level 65.

If you melee some mob with no pet solo at highborns (which is exactly what you would have to do since you can't have two pets) hoping to not only get the orb to proc, but to then get either death's silence off, or word of terris then have at it.. I would give you a life expectancy of 20%. Doesnt sound like much fun to me just in order to get tishan on a mob.

[drewz21]

Ahura, I was by no means attacking your method of charming. I think you should hunt in whatever way you seem fit. That's one of the joys of a Necro, IMO. You can root/rot, fear kite, aggro kite, charm, pet tank, and I'm sure there are other ways that people have thought of.

I was saying that my experience with my Enchanter was bad. I've not yet found the need to use charming with my Necro and based on MY experience with charming, not dire-charming because I know that's a different story, I don't plan on charming mobs.

I'm glad it works for you and I wish you continued success with it. I was merely trying to help the original poster with as much information as possible.

Good hunting.
Jos.

[Ahura Mazda]

Ok I got a bit defensvie :D sorry to those that I might have upset.

I think that the Risk -vs- Reward argument on charming is strictly relative to the person doing the charming. For me charming a Highborn Noble and clearing out 2-3 camps in less then 10minutes is more then worth it, to others that have different playing styles, that might not have the same attraction.

However we have all digressed from the main subject which was how to improve the duration of charm, and how to make it more manageable for a group.

I believe that CHA has no effect on duration and that the only way to increase charm duration is to drop the victims magic resistance. I dont generally charm in an ADV for the time involved in getting a good pet. I very rarely do it in groups outside of ADV for the simple lack of suitable camps with viable charmable mobs. I see charm as a great farming tool and a good way of breaking camps as well but that gets a bit tricky.

Again, sorry for ruffling any feathers out there.

[drewz21]

And as a follow-up to that. With my Enchanter I have a buffed 214 CHA. I have not noticed any difference with my charms either. So I really don't think CHA matters either.

Good hunting.
Jos.

[quik2]

Read this somewhere, but here it goes..............................

Buy 2 Adamantite Rings ( -10mr each), there's also a shoulder item w/ (-10mr) name escapes my mind.

Then go pull a random mob u want to charm, mez him. Give him those 3 items.

NOW go pull another mob, mez him also, give him orb of tishan. Charm the first mob u pull. Send him to attack mob number 2. Mob number 2 will proc Tash on ur pet. BAM -60 mr on ur pet. Loot orb back from dead mob 2. Now every 15mins, Mez a mob you want to kill, give him orb, ur pet will ALWAYS have tash on him.


The guide content is hijacked material from somewhere I read, there I said it. Happy charming.