new coding to let mobs ignore fd

[Xislaben]

In case you don't browse the vet boards at soe too much, Ngreth et al have come up with new coding to allow npc's to entirely ignore FD.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/li...topic_id=107705 (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=107705)

Nodyin:
" I won't speak for The Ogre on this one but for me that's the issue. As a developer I don't like anything that paints me into a design corner.

But do not worry - Feign Death is not going anywhere, nor is it going to be systematically rendered useless or any other doomsday scenario."

Ngreth:
"I certainly have no intent to use this mechanic EVERYWHERE. Heck, I have no intent to use it often. But I continue to not see a problem where from time to time, something is made not to work for a specific reason, even a so called "core" ability. Mez is a "core" ability of enchanters, it is disabled often, more often than I would disable feign death. Core abilities are disabled all the time for interest of the story.

And realistically, I don't see why some intelligent creature that know that "these beings that use these forms of attack do this thing sometime where they fake death" would not periodically kick the "corpse" to be sure it is really dead... and when it ends up reacting to the pain... what do you know... not quite dead."

Ngreth:
"And I have made an encounter that also ignores Fade. Just not this particular one. The Energy that spawns in the portals ignore fade, memblur, feign death, CoH and SoS. The only thing I can think of that will make them forget about a person is for them to zone.

Also note, I have not made the change to the experiments, just considered it.

That in mind. I could very well consider the AA's to "ignore pain" in what I had considered doing.

It is still only in the "consideration" stage anyway.

Of course you are also ignoring that my statement was in response to a complaint that I "nerfed" SoS. So I am certainly not "picking" on monks."

Ngreth:
" Though this does actually affect a quest, I am not looking at this to fix a "mission."

While I am not particularly happy the monks, bards and rogues can routinely, and do routinely bypass content, even if "we" gave them the ability. I am not basing this on that. That every task/quest/mission has to have a kill element because these classes were given abilities that let them bypass content is annoying. But it is what we now have. This "quest" has a kill element BECASUE of all of the bypass mechanisms. The specific quest that his affects has a kill element already.

I am basing it more on what these NPC's are. These NPC's just sense that you are not quite dead yet. "You got betta!"

Again *IF* I do this... it would not "continually kick every tick." It would kick once, it would check the appropriate (stone_) AA's, See which you have and make the appropriate "chance" check. If it shows that the AA's succeeded, it would then "forget" and assume you are dead. If it shows the appropriate AA's failed, it would then have "found you out" and set something on itself remembering that you are a "faker". And it would continue to attack until you or it are dead. (or you zone, or have a way to memblur it... etc...)

And I like the Idea of making an NPC ignore everything and going after the healer(s). Thanks for the idea, I even know a way to do it! Course it will be an awfully difficult fight for you guys, but you wanted it! I have even partially done this before. I have had adds that specifically initially target the healers. Sure they are taunt-able after that, but it is at least partially the idea. But an NPC that decides Healers must die first sounds cool SMILEY:)"

Ngreth:
" Correct. Future spawns would not know about the faker.

And as for the zone out thing... there is an odd issue in code that prevents NPC's from remembering a player once the player zones. So currently it is a limitation, not a "rule."

I still have no plans to do this often, really. I mean it. I do not want to do it often.

I have my opinions on things... For example Oozes... I think they would "keep attacking" until there is no corpse... I.E. they eat it. So Feign Death would be useless as they would keep trying to eat you. Despite this opinion, I am not going to make every ooze in the game ignore Feign Death. I do not want to disable something like FD that often, just in special cases... Maybe a "rare" special named ooze "The Ravenous Ooze.", but certainly not every ooze in the game.

As a side issue, I see the "eating the corpse" also go to the mechanic of destroying a players corpse, which is not realistically acceptable at all. I have no plans for that at all!"

[Schaeffer]

Mez is a "core" ability of enchanters, it is disabled often, more often than I would disable feign death. Core abilities are disabled all the time for interest of the story.

That line would scare me, and I liked Ngreth...

[Xislaben]

I wouldn't say there's cause for great alarm here, but this definitely bears watching.

How many mobs will now begin to ignore FD, if implemented. How will it work. And what kind of content will be increasingly unfriendly to necros and other FD classes now?

[Astroshak]

And as for the zone out thing... there is an odd issue in code that prevents NPC's from remembering a player once the player zones. So currently it is a limitation, not a "rule."

TRAIN TO ZONE!

5 minutes later
Zone clear? I'll go check

2 minutes later
GRR the mob remembered me and brought an even bigger train!

[Aegrusnecrox]

Well this really just eliminates any way for us to dps on those mobs.

Our spells generate rediculous amounts of hate, and without FD, we cant be doing any DPS or else we'll get aggro. We also have no mechanic besides FD to lose or lessen our aggro, so how do they expect us to accomplish anything on these fights?

And no, silent casting does nothing for us, it doesn't reduce hate on DoT ticks, only the initial cast, i.e. it is useless.

-Egg

[scrat]

Good catch on the aggro-shedding; probably something the Ngreth has not nor will ever think of without prompting.

[FCseven]

Originally posted by Aegrusnecrox@Mar 6 2007, 09:48 PM
Well this really just eliminates any way for us to dps on those mobs.

Our spells generate rediculous amounts of hate, and without FD, we cant be doing any DPS or else we'll get aggro.* We also have no mechanic besides FD to lose or lessen our aggro, so how do they expect us to accomplish anything on these fights?

And no, silent casting does nothing for us, it doesn't reduce hate on DoT ticks, only the initial cast, i.e. it is useless.

-Egg
Very good catch,also if only a couple mobs could not see through fd then fd flopping across a zone would be history.With all of the changes in recent months I feel the golden age of EQ (and our class) is coming to a painful end.What the devs need to do is stop fucking around with long standing game mechanics.Maybe all the time they use thinking up this shit would be better used fixing bugs.

[Xelgadis]

Likely this code will be used to prevent pre-nerf "Where There's a Will" from happening again. Three classes could solo it; Monk, Necromancer, and Shadow Knight, simply because they could circumvent the auto-aggro mechanic that the scripted NPCs had. Not even a rogue could solo this mission.

If used in applications such as that, then there isn't a problem, nor anything to worry about. Most likely, that's the type of thing that the developers would use it for. I can't feasibly see them putting it on some raid boss, or similar, because that encroaches upon not only the Necromancer's role for DPS, but also their role in raid recovery.

For the sake of quests, and certain missions, a mechanic like this makes perfect sense.

While I'm sure that the "evade" (reduces the amount of hate you have on an NPC) side of FD will be unaffected, it would still be prudent to mention this concern to the developers.

[Xislaben]

Yeah I would *hope* that's all they use it for (if they use it period...), but Ngreth said specifically it's not in reaction to bypassing elements of scripts, and that he wants to use it in more places for other reasons.

" Though this does actually affect a quest, I am not looking at this to fix a "mission."

That and for certain named that he feels for RP reasons should ignore FD to some degree.

It could be implemented so that for some mobs somehow FD does not drop your hate to 0 temporarily, but it still drops it low enough that you can continue to DPS, but should the group/raid wipe you're still screwed.

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Doc Hollidazed@Mar 7 2007, 08:16 AM
I think its a lame thing to implement. Break a skill we already bought just so we can buy it again...why would we want to pay for that?
We just had a few "corrections" to my main Class in WoW.. many people waxing poetic about "nerfs":
7. Fundamentally change character classes *after* your customers have put significant time and energy into their characters. Shrug and tell them to start over - if you tell them anything at all.

12. Develop in a vacuum. Never under any circumstance establish dialog with the enemy- er I mean customer. Studiously ignore unsolicited feedback, after making sure you don't solicit any. Don't assign liaisons to player groups. And if you ever do venture out into the real world, remember to remain very vague and use phrases like "we never intended that" and "working as expected" to spout off regardless of the subject of discussion. Play dumb if anyone asks how/when you tested the subject of the discussion before implementing it and/or changing it.- "How to Kill a Game in 15 Easy Steps" (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80372650&sid=1)

But this got me into a long talk with one of my friends... why do game companies do this shit? I, the eternal optimist, believe they get sucked in on the slippery slope. Surely.. you expect them to fix "bugs", things that are wrong. Perhaps (especially since they don't play with any seriousness) they start to see little things as problems?

I also enjoyed some of the points about Community and Itemization.. seems like these are somewhat universal, too:
14. In particular, do whatever you can to forment conflict between the customers (because naturally, if they're largely occupied fighting with each other, they won't have much time to complain to you or about you, will they).

9. Fail to recognize that at the core, despite any protestations, human beings play games to "win", and to enjoy the process/anticipation of winning. In a never-ending MMO, "winning" is defined as "improving my character, whether it's a level up and a new spell, or a new and better item". Consequently, be sure you upset as many players as possible by putting little "progressively better" gear into the game, thus ensuring people are only getting side or downgrades even from the most difficult raid encounters available.

On topic.. on the one hand, FD can be a little too perfect.. on the other hand, that's why those Classes are in demand when you need them.

The comparison to Mez is interesting, I think.. although not a perfect analogy (is anything a perfect analogy?).

[Fayed]

i always woundered why Tunat would kill us all and fail to realize that there are 6 floating corpses where as the rest are motionless on the ground. I always thought Boss mobs should walk over to you an give you a swift kick in the groin to see if your alive.

And i think the coding will make it so that when one wipes, the mob will check to make sure your dead. if theres anyone else on the agro list it'll go after them.

Then again we should get together with monks and SK and demand FD take like 1min or less to deagro now that SOE wants to fool around with this class defining trait.

[winchester20]

When i first read this, I couldn't believe it, but after reading the posts, yeah, if I was a boss, I'd definitely go around and give every corpse either a kick in the nuts, or a round in the skull. But damn, I do love being the only one left after a wipe and having to rez the cleric. Not to mention when idiots zone back in and the mobs are still in-camp, and yes, I do warn them, but they click in anyway. It's funny as hell to watch them flail around naked and run for their lives only to have another corpse to take care of.

[Aegrusnecrox]

There are three things that are absolutely integral to the necromancer class:

Snare

Lich

Feign Death

Any nerfs or mitigations to any ONE of these three things will destroy the class as it is now, and it will cease to be the necromancer that we know and love.

It really bothers me when devs start to fuck around with any of these three things, and I am extremely skeptical about these changes to the way some mobs react to feign death. I don't like them one bit, and until i see otherwise, I am going to be vehemently opposed to them.

-Egg

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by Xelgadis@Mar 7 2007, 12:44 AM
Likely this code will be used to prevent pre-nerf "Where There's a Will" from happening again. Three classes could solo it; Monk, Necromancer, and Shadow Knight, simply because they could circumvent the auto-aggro mechanic that the scripted NPCs had. Not even a rogue could solo this mission.

If used in applications such as that, then there isn't a problem, nor anything to worry about. Most likely, that's the type of thing that the developers would use it for. I can't feasibly see them putting it on some raid boss, or similar, because that encroaches upon not only the Necromancer's role for DPS, but also their role in raid recovery.

For the sake of quests, and certain missions, a mechanic like this makes perfect sense.

While I'm sure that the "evade" (reduces the amount of hate you have on an NPC) side of FD will be unaffected, it would still be prudent to mention this concern to the developers.
I"m gonna write something up and send it to ngreth and rashere to see where this is headed and how common they intend on making this. If anyone has constructive points or arguments for such a write-up PM them to me here. Be contructive, I don't want a bunch of "If I can't fd I'm gonna go play vanguard" PM's(even as a joke..xislaben, egg, xelgadis(to name a few "wisenheimers")..don't make me regret asking!).

Anyway, pointed and constructive arguments (or areas of concern). I'll send this monday morning..so people have the weekend to get their stuff into me.

I plan to cite, counter agro, dot dmg agro, critical dot additional agro. As well as pulling/splitting camps, raid recovery etc in the post, but I don't think that's a complete argument atm..suggestions/rough drafts are welcome.

Of course, I'm going to PM them tomorrow and find out if it's going to extend to anything further then Xelgadis mentioned(which was my original though too). I'm fine with it, if it's limited to that application(the cursecaller event in inktu'ta "saw fd" as well..so it's not unique).

[Schaeffer]

Quitting is eaay I've done it hundreds of times

-Mark Twain

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Mar 8 2007, 09:56 AM
Quitting is easy I've done it hundreds of times

-Mark Twain
Quiting is easy, I've done it once.

- Me

[Schaeffer]

Well Mr. Twain was talking about cigarettes at the time, thanks for stealing my thunder Fel :P

[Meph]

Even if they make some mobs ignore FD i seriously doubt the aggro dump was negated. It's probably some messy script that checks if you're fd and lets mob reaggro you or something.

As long as fd dumps you to the bottom of hate list i dont really have issue if you're not ignored by mobs on a wi. Not like i don't get slaughtered alot on raids these days if we wipe.

If the aggro dump is removed alse then we might as well do nothing if a raid mob is ever given that mechanic.


There is a task in Thalassius to collect some library artifacts where fd is not disabled but the mobs guarding those artifacts can't ever forget you once you aggroe them. So once you stand back up it will rush to you again and again till you zone. Was quite a train to zone last time i was there to solo the task :P

Funny thing is .... fade works ok heh.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Meph@Mar 9 2007, 07:25 AM
Funny thing is .... fade works ok heh.
That is by design. Not all magics are created equal ><

[Ecol]

So what's next an AA that allows you to resist the kick from the mob?....I think this is a bad idea....when you start messing with the tools at the crux of a class only bad things can come of it. Remember y'all druids are lacking that chromosome to cast FD and if we lose it we will be no better than the druids.

[Felicite]

Originally posted by Ecol@Mar 9 2007, 08:55 AM
So what's next an AA that allows you to resist the kick from the mob?....
Woo hoo! This will make those pesky Moss Snakes MUCH easier.

[Schaeffer]

Actually Fel, I think they fixed that last summer before TSS went live. I remember a patch message that said "Mobs without legs will no longer be able to kick". I remember because I was curious about pets without legs.

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by Ngreth-dev
Inbox :: Message
From: Dev-Ngreth
To: jebasiz
Date: 03/09/2007 10:08:16
Subject: Re:FD changes/mobs viewing fd'd people differently
Definitely not widespread.

I see it (FD) as working almost all the time, and just that particular NPC's just are not affected as well or at all. And these NPC's would have to be additionally "special" in some way. Like the experiments, or say the oozes, or a named. Not your average JOE NPC.

As for Raid NPC's Most already have extensive scripting and people would not want to put these on raid encounters and make the scripting even more difficult. It certainly would not be on EVERY raid.

As for overall agro... my PARTICULAR use is when the NPC is "Idle" and NPC is only idle when NOTHING is on its hate list. So if a monk, necro, Sk is trying to just drop aggro on a group or raid fight... the NPC is certainly not idle, so it will not even attempt to "check" the feignd person.

[Schaeffer]

Well that's alittle comforting

[sbenchia]

There is no way this turns out good for us.

Yes, I understand they want to keep it restricted but there is just no way.

Somehow, and you can take this to the bank, it will get fucked up and just wreck us. 8 years of eq experience tells me its guaranteed.

I dont believe any dev at SOE that really understands necros. Not even Rashere, not fully. We are always just the afterthought. Thats probably due to the sequential way coding works, but its a fact nonetheless.

We are a pain in the ass class to work with (compouded by a pain in the ass playerbase) and anything like this will have holes all the way through it. Something stupidly obvious like dots running while feigned will be unaccounted for and cause yet another broken effect that will take years of corrections and adjustments, and still never work just right.

I like the concept in general, but I do not like the propects of reality in any way, shape, or form.

[Jebasiz]

Yea..the sky is so totally falling.

[sbenchia]

I certainly dont think the sky is falling. If its done properly, I think its something that will add an exciting element of danger to the class. Right now playing a necro, even with all our spell deficiencies and class barriers, is like playing eq in easy mode. We have advantage over every class in the game with our combination of soloability and survivability.

I think fd "changes" are an interesting proposal, but I hold no confidence that it will be implemented well. We already have documented problems with FD and they dont ever seem to be important enough to get the attention of the devs. Why do you have any confidence at all that this will be any different? From getting randomly summoned out of successful feigns, to multiple conflicting resist emotes, to feigns that happen at the bind point after respawn - what evidence can you present that this wont just be another stone in our shoes?



But hey, its just a speculative opinion on my part. Time will tell if my predictions materialize.

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by sbenchia@Mar 10 2007, 04:29 AM
I certainly dont think the sky is falling. If its done properly, I think its something that will add an exciting element of danger to the class. Right now playing a necro, even with all our spell deficiencies and class barriers, is like playing eq in easy mode. We have advantage over every class in the game with our combination of soloability and survivability.

I think fd "changes" are an interesting proposal, but I hold no confidence that it will be implemented well. We already have documented problems with FD and they dont ever seem to be important enough to get the attention of the devs. Why do you have any confidence at all that this will be any different? From getting randomly summoned out of successful feigns, to multiple conflicting resist emotes, to feigns that happen at the bind point after respawn - what evidence can you present that this wont just be another stone in our shoes?



But hey, its just a speculative opinion on my part. Time will tell if my predictions materialize.
I haven't received any conflicting FD messages(from AE's) in several months..and I eat a lot of AE's. I also haven't been told of that happening for quite some time, and assumed it was fixed.

Summoned while FD... that's been happening rarely for years, I don't know if that's repeatable consistently enough for them to even look at it(it's rare and random). FD while zoning into lobby..I guess sometimes you get hit as you fall(more likely you get hit as your spell casting is finishing and you die while channeling). It's irritating, but something we probably just have to deal with.

The difference between all those and this change is, this change is intended and therefore(hopefully) controlled. The rest are just random, at least that's the way it would appear. They also seem to not want to use it where things are already complicated, which means they won't use it if they feel they can't do so correctly(at least that's how Ngreth's PM read to me). Which is a good thing.

I did ask them to be cautious when enabling this change and to only do so when they were sure it would work as intended(since the effect is so drastic). That's pretty much all I can do.

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by sbenchia@Mar 10 2007, 04:29 AM
Crying...

...We already have documented problems with FD and they dont ever seem to be important enough to get the attention of the devs. Why do you have any confidence at all that this will be any different? From getting randomly summoned out of successful feigns, to multiple conflicting resist emotes, to feigns that happen at the bind point after respawn...

...More crying...
The devs are well aware of the issues with FD (and every issue you listed is a CODE issue, not a DEVELOPMENT issue), and have done what they can do with those issues- pass the information to the code team so they can look into it. It's not any different than debugging anything in the computer world, the more (accurate) information that can be provided makes it easier to isolate the problems and fix them. This includes repeatable examples of issues occurring, if the problem can't be repeated then it's taking a shot in the dark to attempt to fix it. Ask ANYONE who's ever had to debug a program, with near (or completely) useless information available, how much of a pain in the ass it is to address the problem. I've been in that position, it fucking sucks, which is why I'm a raging asshole about people doing the research and study to provide the necessary information to get shit fixed.

Simply crying "this is broken! fix plskthx" (which is about how much effort I see people in this community take toward problem solving) is about as helpful and useful as a retarded person telling their boss that they have a lot of morons working at a given place of business.

If people want to see shit fixed, spend a little less time bitching about something not working right, and spend a little more time researching the cause(s) of it not working right, like a good Boyscout would. If something actually gets fixed as a result of spending a little time doing some research:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8943/winprizedownsqw8.jpg

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Jebasiz+Mar 10 2007, 12:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jebasiz @ Mar 10 2007, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by Ngreth-dev+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ngreth-dev)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As for Raid NPC's Most already have extensive scripting and people would not want to put these on raid encounters and make the scripting even more difficult. It certainly would not be on EVERY raid.[/b][/b]
Oh good, we're adding raid mobs to our list or very very limited mobs that totally ignore FD (when not agroed)!


<!--QuoteBegin-Jebasiz@Mar 10 2007, 12:29 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Ngreth-dev
As for overall agro... my PARTICULAR use is when the NPC is "Idle" and NPC is only idle when NOTHING is on its hate list. So if a monk, necro, Sk is trying to just drop aggro on a group or raid fight... the NPC is certainly not idle, so it will not even attempt to "check" the feignd person.[/quote][/quote]

Yes, so when I fd on a wipe, the mob waits until it clears agro, and then it kills me. That sound so much better! I hope the range of this new anti-fd code is at least 500'!

[sbenchia]

Originally posted by Xelgadis+Mar 10 2007, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xelgadis @ Mar 10 2007, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-sbenchia@Mar 10 2007, 04:29 AM
Crying...

...We already have documented problems with FD and they dont ever seem to be important enough to get the attention of the devs. Why do you have any confidence at all that this will be any different? From getting randomly summoned out of successful feigns, to multiple conflicting resist emotes, to feigns that happen at the bind point after respawn...

...More crying...
The devs are well aware of the issues with FD (and every issue you listed is a CODE issue, not a DEVELOPMENT issue), and have done what they can do with those issues- pass the information to the code team so they can look into it. It's not any different than debugging anything in the computer world, the more (accurate) information that can be provided makes it easier to isolate the problems and fix them. This includes repeatable examples of issues occurring, if the problem can't be repeated then it's taking a shot in the dark to attempt to fix it. Ask ANYONE who's ever had to debug a program, with near (or completely) useless information available, how much of a pain in the ass it is to address the problem. I've been in that position, it fucking sucks, which is why I'm a raging asshole about people doing the research and study to provide the necessary information to get shit fixed.

Simply crying "this is broken! fix plskthx" (which is about how much effort I see people in this community take toward problem solving) is about as helpful and useful as a retarded person telling their boss that they have a lot of morons working at a given place of business.

If people want to see shit fixed, spend a little less time bitching about something not working right, and spend a little more time researching the cause(s) of it not working right, like a good Boyscout would. If something actually gets fixed as a result of spending a little time doing some research:
[/b][/quote]



No need to be a douche Xelgadis. Your response makes me wonder if you even read the post or you just wanted to chime in and post a "clever" pic.

To reiterate for you:

I am for the change if its implemented properly.

No crying or whining here.

Maybe you have faith that they can pull it off without problems, or that it will be contained.

I dont.

If Ngreth has given it enough conderation that hes already conceived AAs to beat it, to me that is a signal that its going to me used more often than a couple mobs... which I have no problem with if it doesnt screw anything else up.

My position is that its better to leave things alone than it is to bring more problems into the picture.

Finally, last i checked, its the devs who do the coding. Who else would be responsible for it? Or maybe you were suggesting that the code wrote itself and is to blame?

[sbenchia]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Mar 10 2007, 03:41 PM
I haven't received any conflicting FD messages(from AE's) in several months..and I eat a lot of AE's. I also haven't been told of that happening for quite some time, and assumed it was fixed.

Summoned while FD... that's been happening rarely for years, I don't know if that's repeatable consistently enough for them to even look at it(it's rare and random). FD while zoning into lobby..I guess sometimes you get hit as you fall(more likely you get hit as your spell casting is finishing and you die while channeling). It's irritating, but something we probably just have to deal with.

The difference between all those and this change is, this change is intended and therefore(hopefully) controlled. The rest are just random, at least that's the way it would appear. They also seem to not want to use it where things are already complicated, which means they won't use it if they feel they can't do so correctly(at least that's how Ngreth's PM read to me). Which is a good thing.

I did ask them to be cautious when enabling this change and to only do so when they were sure it would work as intended(since the effect is so drastic). That's pretty much all I can do.


I havent been in game for a while now, but Im closer to returning now that some of the tss spells have been revamped.

I revealed a bit of legacy with the fd problems I cited, was unaware that they had been reviewed.

You make a valid point about these changes being intended and hopefully controlled. Perhaps I need to continue my hiatus for a few more months because clearly I am still severely bitter about a few remaining issues.

[Xelgadis]

Your list of grievances with FD bugs came off as whining, plain and simple. Yet I don't see any constructive means going on to isolate the problems in which to assist the coders in fixing the aforementioned bugs.

There are more people who work on EverQuest than simply the development team, there's a team of coders who do most of the backend work. The developers themselves actually do very little of the total coding for the game.

So yeah, I came off as an asshole*, what else is new? Your admitted acceptance to the new system was drowned out by your whining like a little bitch about this and that. First examine how you came off initially, and realize you were whining, then we can discuss my being an asshole.

*In case you hadn't noticed, I've been an asshole around here for quite a while, and will continue to be one until I see it fit to change. As it stands, I don't see that change coming in the near future.

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by Xelgadis+Mar 10 2007, 10:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xelgadis @ Mar 10 2007, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-sbenchia@Mar 10 2007, 04:29 AM
Crying...

...We already have documented problems with FD and they dont ever seem to be important enough to get the attention of the devs. Why do you have any confidence at all that this will be any different? From getting randomly summoned out of successful feigns, to multiple conflicting resist emotes, to feigns that happen at the bind point after respawn...

...More crying...
The devs are well aware of the issues with FD (and every issue you listed is a CODE issue, not a DEVELOPMENT issue), and have done what they can do with those issues- pass the information to the code team so they can look into it. It's not any different than debugging anything in the computer world, the more (accurate) information that can be provided makes it easier to isolate the problems and fix them. This includes repeatable examples of issues occurring, if the problem can't be repeated then it's taking a shot in the dark to attempt to fix it. Ask ANYONE who's ever had to debug a program, with near (or completely) useless information available, how much of a pain in the ass it is to address the problem. I've been in that position, it fucking sucks, which is why I'm a raging asshole about people doing the research and study to provide the necessary information to get shit fixed.

Simply crying "this is broken! fix plskthx" (which is about how much effort I see people in this community take toward problem solving) is about as helpful and useful as a retarded person telling their boss that they have a lot of morons working at a given place of business.

If people want to see shit fixed, spend a little less time bitching about something not working right, and spend a little more time researching the cause(s) of it not working right, like a good Boyscout would. If something actually gets fixed as a result of spending a little time doing some research:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8943/winprizedownsqw8.jpg [/b][/quote]
That's just it though. I can't repeat zoning while fd/dead enough to bug report it. I don't know of anyone that can. The conflicting messages, I talked to devs about and it was fixed(at least I don't get them anymore).

This change to fd(is going to be rare) is done by developers, they're not creating new code for this, they're just employing what they already have. It's delibrate and has a purpose. Therefore, I don't expect it to be problematic.

[Schaeffer]

Classic EoA

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by Jebasiz@Mar 10 2007, 04:07 PM
That's just it though. I can't repeat zoning while fd/dead enough to bug report it. I don't know of anyone that can. The conflicting messages, I talked to devs about and it was fixed(at least I don't get them anymore).

This change to fd(is going to be rare) is done by developers, they're not creating new code for this, they're just employing what they already have. It's delibrate and has a purpose. Therefore, I don't expect it to be problematic.
That's essentially what several of us said from the start. Then there's the faction of people who act like this is the impending doomsday, some of the crap I'm hearing in game about this (from all three classes this affects, but primarily necros ironically enough) is outright laughable. It's no surprise really, this class is typically the most notorious for shitting first then asking questions later, the last several betas made that quite evident (Got Last Breath?, shameless Milk reference :P).



FD firing at bind is nothing new, it's been happening since Omens. The bug extends back further than that, it's been happening to Druids and Wizards since Luclin (with Exodus). Melee classes have their melee immunity discs fire at bind, I've tried to cast Life Curse at bind (but luckily had no target, so it auto-failed/reset). The bug is really about as old as the game, much like auto-standing after being healed/regenerating out of negative HP. The former I've never given much of a shit about, it's not exactly something that has potential to be detrimental to the class, the latter does however.

The conflicting messages.. I haven't even bothered looking at them in quite a while. If I resist a spell, I can usually see visually if an NPC is still heading my way afterward. If necessary, the 'c' key on my keyboard is easily accessible on a moments notice. It's one of those things that never really bothered me much, since I've never used audio triggers for spells breaking FD.

[Jebasiz]

The only real problem I see with mobs ignoring fd is returning to OOCR when the mob doesn't die. There should be a way to remove yourself from agro range of the mob and acquire rest status again without zoning/relogging or dying...and really, that'll just make coh pulling more prevalent, but with so many ways of dropping agro..there probably isn't any single way of preventing everyone from doing it.

[Aegrusnecrox]

I am by no means whining. I don't like this idea, however it's not because I think they're going to implement it on everything. I don't like it because it mitigates our ability to do anything on these events, and I really don't like being useless.

I also don't like people mucking with my feign death, in any regard. I am change averse when it comes to feign, lich, or snare, because I am constantly worried that SoE is going to either fuck it up or nerf it in one way or another.

Chalk that up to just the way I am.

-Egg

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Aegrusnecrox@Mar 11 2007, 07:53 PM
I am by no means whining. I don't like this idea, however it's not because I think they're going to implement it on everything. I don't like it because it mitigates our ability to do anything on these events, and I really don't like being useless.

I also don't like people mucking with my feign death, in any regard. I am change averse when it comes to feign, lich, or snare, because I am constantly worried that SoE is going to either fuck it up or nerf it in one way or another.

Chalk that up to just the way I am.
I certainly agree with you there mostly, though my understanding of how the mechanic is 'intended' to work is that it should not prevent necromancers from dpsing, it just makes rez recovery impossible without zoning first or training far away from the mobs that don't ever forget you. And even then you may need to zone or risk training your group when you get closer to those mobs. So basically one of the reasons to bring a necro is gone, since you can't really rez recover at that point in the mission any more where this anti-fd code has been implemented.

It should make splitting anti-fders much more interesting, and roamers that never forget you after fding, lol, that will be a blast too!

It's already morphed (albeit as an idea only at this stage) from specific trash in 1 instance (and he claims it's not to prevent soloing the mission) to named in other zones to raid mobs in Ngreth's conversations on the boards and in PM's.

We could use a few less Neville Chamberlains...

[Darkboxer]

Maybe they need to make this change cause they can't think of any new AA's to implement. So they figured they would go back and break some old stuff so they can create 20 new AA's to get back to where you started.........

That way you don't have to come up with anything new. :D

[Xislaben]

Yup, Ngreth says he's nixing the fd-nerf idea:
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/li...topic_id=107705 (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=200&topic_id=107705)

Pro-nerf cunt Ellessidil is disappointed.

[pizer]

did anyone figure out who that faggot is? my guess is a bard

[Vivamort]

Well I am glad that has died for now, or did it just FD? Some one give it a kick please.

Power corrupts. It is human nature to use and abuse whatever power you have.

It is best for the FD community if the Devs do not have the power to make mobs ignore FD, no matter what their intent for its use is. Even if the Dev that suggests it and implements it is true to their word and avoids the temptation to over use the feature. There are other Devs that now have it in their tool bag, and might not believe the use should be so limited.

Besides the NPCs knew the job was dangerous when they took it!

Vivamort 70 Nec EMarr retired
Ikadz 57 Necro Test active

[Quezquotyl]

Originally posted by Vivamort@Mar 14 2007, 03:46 PM
Well I am glad that has died for now, or did it just FD? Some one give it a kick please.

Power corrupts. It is human nature to use and abuse whatever power you have.

It is best for the FD community if the Devs do not have the power to make mobs ignore FD, no matter what their intent for its use is. Even if the Dev that suggests it and implements it is true to their word and avoids the temptation to over use the feature. There are other Devs that now have it in their tool bag, and might not believe the use should be so limited.

Besides the NPCs knew the job was dangerous when they took it!

Vivamort 70 Nec EMarr retired
Ikadz 57 Necro Test active
I think it's fair to say that most of the folks in this thread are opposed to change. I am skeptical, but willing to let the devs do what they think is necessary to create challenging content. Unmezzable mobs have been around a few expansions, ones that ignore FD, now that's a catchy idea to make shit interesting.

There have got to be other options for pulling the content this is implemented in. Be it offtanking, rooting, mezzing, etc. It's just taking something out of the equation that until previously hasn't been touched. At some point this was bound to be thought up. Alot of people are going to piss and moan, oppose it, voice concern or what have you. But in the end if doesn't effect most of us, then who cares. The devs won't take it out because you say it's unbalancing, when for 12 previous expansions we could FD through most anything and get one mob single, eventually.

But to answer your question in general, most Necros think it's a shitty idea. Especially for the little guy who just wants to kite different mobs in some new scenery and maybe get that random zonewide drop.