Where Rashere sees Necros

[Xislaben]

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/li...topic_id=109825 (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=100&topic_id=109825)

"This is where the self-defeating prophecy comes in. If you look around, all you see are necromancers bewoeing their "awful DPS" compared to someone else. This makes players think that there's a real problem, particularly since they can't see the majority of necro damage, and suddenly there's a problem finding groups because necros keep saying how bad they are and people believe them.

In truth, necros sustained damage is higher than wizards by quite a bit even before you include any damage coming from their pet and they can sustain their onslaught quite a bit longer before needing to rest than a wizard who is trying to maximize their sustained DPS. On the opposite end, necros can burst almost as high as a wizard, which is something you don't hear them say much. As I said previously, neither class has a problem with DPS and they're far and away the best DPS casters in the game with a wide margin between them and the next highest caster.

Whether necros or wizards have higher mana regen is almost completely moot. Their regen is appropriate to their ability and both classes can sustain the damage they need to fill their role of DPS in a group or raid situation. They just do it differently. That's why I say its just petty bickering that, when counted one way, wizard mana regen looks higher than necro.

The soloing argument is very similar. Again, neither class has a problem soloing. They just do it differently. One may be better than another in any given circumstance, but neither have a problem doing it at all. Arguing about one soloing better than the other is like arguing that someone's lobster looks tastier than your lobster while some other guy is sitting over in the corner gnawing on rocks.

Rashere"

[Maeryn]

I spent about 20 minutes typing out a reply to that, then I realized how useless it was. You can't argue with someone who apparently lives on another planet.

[Xislaben]

This explains so much though...

"On the opposite end, necros can burst almost as high as a wizard"

I just don't know what to say, it's not remotely possible, though I guess the word 'close' is subject to clarification. If 'close' means within 50% of, then yeah maybe...

[Brahman]

how the fuck do they get that far off base from reality?

do they play the toon themselves and just play a wizzie that horribly?

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Brahman@Apr 12 2007, 06:34 PM
how the fuck do they get that far off base from reality?

do they play the toon themselves and just play a wizzie that horribly?
I'm willing to bet wiz have provided them fluffed parses in the hopes of lobbying for upgrades, and the devs bought it.

Either that or they play a wiz very poorly.

[Maeryn]

ah, fuck it.

[Evillil]

Originally posted by Xislaben@Apr 12 2007, 06:22 PM
This explains so much though...

"On the opposite end, necros can burst almost as high as a wizard"

I just don't know what to say, it's not remotely possible, though I guess the word 'close' is subject to clarification. If 'close' means within 50% of, then yeah maybe...
Well at least it's not just me. I thought I was missing something, or about 500 dps increasing AAs, I must've missed the AA tab labeled "burst."

I actually did type out a long reply to that, just becasue it's such a slap in the face to see how amazingly ignorant the devs are when it comes to our class. By the time I actually got it posted though, everyone else that was just as shocked as me had responded so I'm sure it'll get lost in the sea of replies. It's damn good to see a bunch of necros registering JUST to respond to his ignorance. That's why I registered, and only 95 more spam posts until I can use the edit button over there!

[Xislaben]

If you take our top 8 DoTs:
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/6869/dpsbasepk9.jpg

And take the ramp up into account, you will average a base of about 960 DPS over 5 minutes.

Looking at MAX possible DPS from max foci hits and 45% crits on average:

960 * 1.65 * 1.45 = 2296.8 DPS

Now nobody ever hits max foci all the time, average is 32.5% if you have 65% across the board.

960 * 1.325 * 1.45 = 1844.4 DPS

So 1850ish is the best average you should expect if you cna keep 8 the top dots stacked, which is often not possible. Wiz are only 1000 dps over that at the best that I have seen.

[Evillil]

Meph-AB wrote:


Rashare, do you even know how necromancer class performs outside your teoretical calculations? What is the wizard like burst damage you are speaking off? WTD pets doing 50 dps? Lifeburn doing same dmg once per 2 hours wizzys and mages can do in 1 normal nuke? Or do you mean Swarm of decay with 30 minute use and barely better dps than wtd army.

You know what i do when "burn" is called? I dot as usual and click wtd/skelly archers/ and maybe use Lifeburn.

Or do you mean CoA robe wich is not an necromancer ability AT ALL but a rare item some of necros posses? Because if you count this as a necro burst dmg then next thing you have to do it to turn it into a necro class aa since 95% of necros don't have it.

RASHERE- "These are not "theoretical calculations". We've been spending a lot of time recently doing in-game realistic situation parses of the various classes to reconcile the feedback on the boards with actual game play. What I'm speaking of comes from these tests, not from running theoretical numbers. There's nothing theoretical about it, although at the moment our testing is limited to the high end player, but as those are the ones complaining the most, the results are very relevant here.


Burst varies depending on how you define it. If you define a burst as the most damage you can do in 10 seconds, then yes, wizards are far above necros...no arguments there. If you look at both classes pouring everything they have into pure damage over the course of a couple minutes, though, the necromancer damage is very close to the wizard damage and they can sustain that damage longer before running OOM due to the efficiency of their spells (and again, this is pure spell damage, not including pets). Once you move into the realm of pure sustained DPS, necros best wizards hands down, almost doubling their DPS in some cases. "

Rashere



Wow...what parses is he looking at? Am I completely missing something and totally out of the loop here or what? First he tries to say that their regen is superior to ours and we just have to deal with it, then he says that we can "sustain longer before running OOM due to efficiency of our spells." Wait...what efficiency? And what parse has necro dps doubling wizzy dps? If anything, at the mid range, I've seen just the opposite. Is there something going on up at the high end that they give you some super secret AA that doubles necro DPS magically?

[Xislaben]

I would like to see those numbers.

[Lashden]

I doubt we'll see much real data from him. Like I said in my post (which was ignored :rolleyes: , must have not had enough insults), trying to compare a necro dot'ing a mob and a wizard nuking a mob doesn't exactly work like comparing a mage nuking and a wizard nuking. I have the feeling the tests are either crossing raid/group situations incorrectly, or are just setup to appease whatever opinion that is wanted.

[Maeryn]

Originally posted by Lashden@Apr 12 2007, 03:10 PM
Like I said in my post (which was ignored :rolleyes: , must have not had enough insults), trying to compare a necro dot'ing a mob and a wizard nuking a mob doesn't exactly work like comparing a mage nuking and a wizard nuking.
I know the feeling =p

[Evillil]

Originally posted by Maeryn+Apr 12 2007, 07:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maeryn @ Apr 12 2007, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lashden@Apr 12 2007, 03:10 PM
Like I said in my post (which was ignored* :rolleyes: , must have not had enough insults), trying to compare a necro dot'ing a mob and a wizard nuking a mob doesn't exactly work like comparing a mage nuking and a wizard nuking.
I know the feeling =p [/b][/quote]
Join the club...it's great :rolleyes:

[Zandramadass]

The only thing preventing players from seeing it themselves is that DoT damage isn't broadcast to other players, something I'd like to rectify if we can so everyone can see where things stand for themselves instead of relying on someone else's word, even mine, for their opinion.

Rashere

So they are trying to make it so the bitch can get her way and start shouting NERF NERF NERF....

Excuse me but what fucking game is he playing that he thinks our burst is anywhere near a wiz? Even an end game nec vs a casual wiz that doesnt have their head up their ass blow us away in burst situations.

I almost think when it warms up I will have to bid farewell to EQ forever because it is nothing more then a shell of the once fun game it was and its obvious that the devs have almost completely lost touch with the game base and dont care. Besides i'm sick and tired of shelling out money for expansions every 6mo when they havent finished tweaking shit from previous expansions that should have been done during Beta.

[Jebasiz]

ya..lets all go play WoW.

[Xislaben]

Lets play guess the class!
1 hint, 0 of them are necros!


dmg - time - dps - adps

572867 00:03:47 - 2523.64 - 2523.64
618248 0:03:59 - 2586.81 - 1873.48
640427 00:04:02 - 2646.39 - 2646.39
627409 00:03:55 - 2669.83 - 2413.11

With 7th year:
837101 00:04:24 - 3170.84 - 3158.87
892841 00:03:57 - 3767.26 - 3659.18

[Zandramadass]

I was thinking of investing time in this new fad I heard about called "A real life". I just hope its not as big of a let down as EQ has been for some time now.

[Lilnecro]

Jeb ... thats like going to play "lets go rubs each others butts" with the scout master at the over night jamboree

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Xislaben@Apr 12 2007, 02:47 PM
I would like to see those numbers.
If he shows us those numbers, then fine. If he doesn't, I want his ass fired, that's complete and utter bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Schaeffer+Apr 12 2007, 08:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Schaeffer @ Apr 12 2007, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Xislaben@Apr 12 2007, 02:47 PM
I would like to see those numbers.
If he shows us those numbers, then fine. If he doesn't, I want his ass fired, that's complete and utter bullshit as far as I'm concerned. [/b][/quote]
Lol, he's the head cheese man, and I'm betting he's just being honest about the numbers the player base provided to him.

That's the key there, nothing against Rash, I just think he got fed a bunch of bullshit wiz parses.

p.s. Play my game, guess the classes!

edit:
Maybe it's some silly reverse psychology and he wants the small % of necro players that read the boards to say "yes, make dot dmg visible to all"... Frankly I don't care if it is or it isn't, and that's a grasping at straws conspiracy theory heh.

[Schaeffer]

Are they all caster classes or is there some melee in there?

And he maybe the head dev, but if he's going to believe that crock of shit then we can still go above his head, he's got to report to somebody at SoE...

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Apr 12 2007, 08:20 PM
Are they all caster classes or is there some melee in there?

And he maybe the head dev, but if he's going to believe that crock of shit then we can still go above his head, he's got to report to somebody at SoE...
Psh, guess!

Lets play guess the class!
1 hint, 0 of them are necros!


dmg - time - dps - adps

572867 00:03:47 - 2523.64 - 2523.64
618248 0:03:59 - 2586.81 - 1873.48
640427 00:04:02 - 2646.39 - 2646.39
627409 00:03:55 - 2669.83 - 2413.11

With 7th year:
837101 00:04:24 - 3170.84 - 3158.87
892841 00:03:57 - 3767.26 - 3659.18

[Brahman]

they are all wizzies.

[Lashden]

Originally posted by Xislaben+Apr 12 2007, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xislaben @ Apr 12 2007, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Schaeffer@Apr 12 2007, 08:20 PM
Are they all caster classes or is there some melee in there?

And he maybe the head dev, but if he's going to believe that crock of shit then we can still go above his head, he's got to report to somebody at SoE...
Psh, guess!

Lets play guess the class!
1 hint, 0 of them are necros!


dmg - time - dps - adps

572867 00:03:47 - 2523.64 - 2523.64
618248 0:03:59 - 2586.81 - 1873.48
640427 00:04:02 - 2646.39 - 2646.39
627409 00:03:55 - 2669.83 - 2413.11

With 7th year:
837101 00:04:24 - 3170.84 - 3158.87
892841 00:03:57 - 3767.26 - 3659.18 [/b][/quote]
Hmm...I like games but I'm not a numbers person when it comes to eq...so you get a random wild guess :D

dmg - time - dps - adps

572867 00:03:47 - 2523.64 - 2523.64
618248 00:03:59 - 2586.81 - 1873.48 - Rogue? (Lol don't come hunt me down please)
640427 00:04:02 - 2646.39 - 2646.39
627409 00:03:55 - 2669.83 - 2413.11

With 7th year:
837101 00:04:24 - 3170.84 - 3158.87
892841 00:03:57 - 3767.26 - 3659.18

[Schaeffer]

dmg - time - dps - adps

572867 00:03:47 - 2523.64 - 2523.64 Rogue
618248 0:03:59 - 2586.81 - 1873.48 Wizard
640427 00:04:02 - 2646.39 - 2646.39 Zerker
627409 00:03:55 - 2669.83 - 2413.11 Mage

With 7th year:
837101 00:04:24 - 3170.84 - 3158.87 Wizard
892841 00:03:57 - 3767.26 - 3659.18 Rogue

So how's this work without spoiling it for everyone else? Are you gonna PM me if I'm right on any of them?

[Todwelt]

dmg - time - dps - adps

572867 00:03:47 - 2523.64 - 2523.64 wiz
618248 0:03:59 - 2586.81 - 1873.48 rog
640427 00:04:02 - 2646.39 - 2646.39 wiz
627409 00:03:55 - 2669.83 - 2413.11 wiz

With 7th year:
837101 00:04:24 - 3170.84 - 3158.87 wiz
892841 00:03:57 - 3767.26 - 3659.18 wiz

So how you going to let us know if we are right (those of us that play at least)

[Evillil]

By the way, anyone want to post this crap over at EQnecro? I don't remember my login info over there and don't feel like doing the retrieval. I know most of us frequent both boards, but I'm sure there are a few that are exclusive to just one board and would like to know what's going on.

*edit-by crap, I mean the crap that keeps spewing out of Rashere's mouth and that EQlive thread in general.

[Xislaben]

Todwelt was the closest, they are all wiz except the 1st 7th year parse, which was a ber.

[Zandramadass]

Least you can edit here Evilil

[Darkeeyes]

Anyone else notice we are thankfully missing a certain flavor from this topic here and almost the whole thread on the Sony boards too........ :ph34r:


Darkeeyes

[Evillil]

Originally posted by Zandramadass@Apr 12 2007, 08:50 PM
Least you can edit here Evilil
Haha, very true. Not sure why they don't let you edit before you spam enough over there, but it's annoying to have to post one line if you want to make a clarification to your post.

And Sshhhh Dark, lest we get her to come over and spew all over this thread too :P

Doh, and I was going to guess all wiz for the parsing game, just for argument's sake, heh.

[Brahman]

Originally posted by Xislaben@Apr 12 2007, 03:50 PM
Todwelt was the closest, they are all wiz except the 1st 7th year parse, which was a ber.
pfft no i was the closest. I said they were all wizzies :P

[Lilnecro]

no i was right i didn't say anything!! Brahman you funny man

[Aegrusnecrox]

I'm sort of speechless really. His comments were so far off base that I don't even know what to say.

-Egg

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Aegrusnecrox@Apr 12 2007, 09:31 PM
I'm sort of speechless really. His comments were so far off base that I don't even know what to say.

-Egg
It makes you wonder if dev's only real knowledge of the game is based on what players tell them, since they obviously aren't playing a toon full time. In which case it makes you wonder who they are listening to that is feeding them such inaccurate information.

I have only ever provided information that was accurate to the best of my knowledge with as much background on the information to explain any discrepancies. Clearly this is not the case with all feedback, in fact it is obviously quite the opposite. That or a great deal of players do not play their class to near the best of the class's potential, and accept the results as normal.

Either way, it certainly explains our current situation. Too bad rash won't expose the data that serves as the basis for his misconceptions.

In the absence of the data to refute as ridiculous as it must be, expect further nerfing for an expansion or two... Several groups in several classes must be rather pleased at the moment.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Xislaben+Apr 12 2007, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xislaben @ Apr 12 2007, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It makes you wonder if dev's only real knowledge of the game is based on what players tell them, since they obviously aren't playing a toon full time. In which case it makes you wonder who they are listening to that is feeding them such inaccurate information.

I have only ever provided information that was accurate to the best of my knowledge with as much background on the information to explain any discrepancies. Clearly this is not the case with all feedback, in fact it is obviously quite the opposite. That or a great deal of players do not play their class to near the best of the class's potential, and accept the results as normal.

Either way, it certainly explains our current situation. Too bad rash won't expose the data that serves as the basis for his misconceptions.

In the absence of the data to refute as ridiculous as it must be, expect further nerfing for an expansion or two... Several groups in several classes must be rather pleased at the moment. [/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Rashere
These are not "theoretical calculations".* We've been spending a lot of time recently doing in-game realistic situation parses of the various classes to reconcile the feedback on the boards with actual game play.* What I'm speaking of comes from these tests, not from running theoretical numbers.* There's nothing theoretical about it, although at the moment our testing is limited to the high end player, but as those are the ones complaining the most, the results are very relevant here.

Burst varies depending on how you define it.* If you define a burst as the most damage you can do in 10 seconds,* then yes, wizards are far above necros...no arguments there.* If you look at both classes pouring everything they have into pure damage over the course of a couple minutes, though, the necromancer damage is very close to the wizard damage and they can sustain that damage longer before running OOM due to the efficiency of their spells (and again, this is pure spell damage, not including pets).* Once you move into the realm of pure sustained DPS, necros best wizards hands down, almost doubling their DPS in some cases.[/quote]

Wow, Xis, you're right. If what Rashela says is true and he's actually testing it then I see 3 possiblities in the discrepancies between what we know and what he's doing.

A. Every necro on these boards and on eqnecro is not playing the class to it's potential.

B. The dev team is not playing wizards to their potential

C. The "realistic situation parses" he's seeing aren't realistic at all due to some variable(s) they missed in setting up the test.

The most likey cause for discrenpency is C IMO. He's not only going to have to show the results to convince me, but he's going to have to recreate the scene entirely in written form. I want to know everything about the test mobs, i.e. resists, total HP's and any other mods that apply. I want to know the buffs/focuses/mods, spells and AA's used of every class compared.

If they use a mob with no resists whatsoever, against a wizzie/necro with max focus/ft/aa/mods/mod2s/full raid buffs with thier highest possible DPS spells for burst damage, I still figure wizzies have to on average do double our DPS on a 4 minute "burst" fight.

But see even that data would be skewed because that wouldn't factor in partial resists that wizards get.

The same goes for a sustained 10 minute fight using each classes best DPM spells. Because of their regen, they might be able to just scrap the DPM spells and just burst twice in 10 minutes while we are in DPM mode.

There is no way I'm going to take the numbers he provides at face value without a detailed explanation behind them.

P.S. For some reason I can't log on to the eqlive boards atm, I tried and failed. If someone here agrees with this post and would do me the favor of re-iterating it on eqlive I'd appreciate it. If not I can do it tomorrow myself.

[Brahman]

Our burst can be pretty high.

I would take a stab at it that they are getting very good necro parses, around the 2k mark, and so-so wizzie parses around the 2k2 mark.

You have to realize the CoA BP click is HUGE.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Prathun+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Prathun)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Xislaben


I've seen wiz hit 2,800 DPS over 4 minutes without vet aa's, and as much as 3900 dps with intensity over 5 minutes, and I'm willing to bet necros are not doing near that much.
What buffs were on the wizard, what debuffs were on the target, and which spells were being used to achieve 2800 DPS for 4 minutes? I'd like to duplicate this if possible. No veteran rewards, glyphs, or mana flare procs. [/b][/quote]

Looks like I was wrong, from this last post, C (ill concieved test environment) no longer looks like it's the cause for discrepency, B (the devs aren't playing wizards to their max DPS potential) looks the likely culprit...

You're probably right Brahman, I've never seen the CoA BP clicky in action so I never realized how that would factor in on a 5 minute fight, but 2k vs 2k8 isn't "close" in my opinion, it's 40% more burst DPS. If what Prat is trying to say is that isn't the intention of what a wizard is supposed to output on a 4 minute fight, then the wizard community should thank she who shall not be named for pushing issues which brought this overpoweredness to light if/when they get nerfed...

[Xislaben]

Er, 2.8 may have been with nerfed 7th year! 2.5 without for at least 1 parse.

[Brahman]

LOL @ k.e.l.a. posting this

Berserker:
Total damage: 464776
DPS: 3602.91

Wizard:
Total damage: 459814
DPS:* 3564.45


right as we get into this and prat posting that he doesn't know how its possible to get a 2k8 parse from a wizzie rofl

lil math here.

the above parse, if the wizzie does nothing for the next 2 min, would still be at 1782 DPS at the 2 min mark...

[Schaeffer]

Lol

Originally posted by K.e.l.a.+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (K.e.l.a.)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by Prathun@
<!--QuoteBegin-Xis
I've seen wiz hit 2,800 DPS over 4 minutes without vet aa's, and as much as 3900 dps with intensity over 5 minutes, and I'm willing to bet necros are not doing near that much.
What buffs were on the wizard, what debuffs were on the target, and which spells were being used to achieve 2800 DPS for 4 minutes? I'd like to duplicate this if possible. No veteran rewards, glyphs, or mana flare procs.I shall go prove or disprove this![/b][/quote]

I hope she remembers to wipe the "glue" off before she shows us the results of her attempts.

[Evillil]

Originally posted by Brahman@Apr 12 2007, 10:33 PM
Our burst can be pretty high.

I would take a stab at it that they are getting very good necro parses, around the 2k mark, and so-so wizzie parses around the 2k2 mark.

You have to realize the CoA BP click is HUGE.
Excuse my noobishness, but could I get a link to the CoA BP? Just curious what makes it so powerful. Even so, I'll bet not even half of the 75 necros have that bp. And I'll go out on a limb and say that 99.99% of lvl 75 wizards have their instanukes, and most have their harvest.

And ugh, you mentioned her name, now this thread's about to go to shit too =/

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Evillil+Apr 12 2007, 08:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Evillil @ Apr 12 2007, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Brahman@Apr 12 2007, 10:33 PM
Our burst can be pretty high.

I would take a stab at it that they are getting very good necro parses, around the 2k mark, and so-so wizzie parses around the 2k2 mark.

You have to realize the CoA BP click is HUGE.
Excuse my noobishness, but could I get a link to the CoA BP? Just curious what makes it so powerful. Even so, I'll bet not even half of the 75 necros have that bp. And I'll go out on a limb and say that 99.99% of lvl 75 wizards have their instanukes, and most have their harvest. [/b][/quote]
Well Rashere did say they were testing primarily raiders becaue they whine the most, but here's a link anyways...

Blightbriner's tunic of the grave (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=70928)

EDIT:And ugh, you mentioned her name, now this thread's about to go to shit too =/

I fixed that, we're good, won't come up in search now, so unless someone links her this thread she won't stumble on it, lol.

[FCseven]

Originally posted by Xislaben@Apr 12 2007, 01:02 PM
On the opposite end, necros can burst almost as high as a wizard, which is something you don't hear them say much.

:lol:

[Evillil]

Originally posted by Schaeffer@Apr 13 2007, 12:25 AM

Blightbriner's tunic of the grave (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=70928)

EDIT:And ugh, you mentioned her name, now this thread's about to go to shit too =/

I fixed that, we're good, won't come up in search now, so unless someone links her this thread she won't stumble on it, lol.
Thought that was it, thanks...and you're the man for fixing that problem B)

[Brahman]

a necro without that BP is like a rogue without backstab or any discs seriously.

[Evillil]

Hmmm, seems I need to get my ass in gear and get my hands on it then. Sucks our burst DPS is so dependent on that though.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Brahman@Apr 12 2007, 08:43 PM
a necro without that BP is like a rogue without backstab or any discs seriously.
If it's that big of a difference then I would hope that the casuals have a case like Evill said because how many non-raiding necros are gonna get a crack at taking down OMM? The tier 1 robe only lasts half as long AFAIK and last I checked Velitorkin was still a raid event and Tiorpat, though groupable, still isn't any cake walk...

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Schaeffer+Apr 13 2007, 12:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Schaeffer @ Apr 13 2007, 12:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Brahman@Apr 12 2007, 08:43 PM
a necro without that BP is like a rogue without backstab or any discs seriously.
If it's that big of a difference then I would hope that the casuals have a case like Evill said because how many non-raiding necros are gonna get a crack at taking down OMM? The tier 1 robe only lasts half as long AFAIK and last I checked Velitorkin was still a raid event and Tiorpat, though groupable, still isn't any cake walk... [/b][/quote]
It's nto THAT big of a difference, maybe 12 to 15k/5min.

[Schaeffer]

So that's about 12k-15k damage for 30 seconds every 5 minutes for 40-50 more dps on average. Yeah, I'll say that's not make or break if Xis's estimates are correct, that is unless B-man wants to rebutt with actual parses, 5 minutes with a click and 5 minutes without a click.

[Lilnecro]

It doesn't add a huge amount, but it does add a lot for burst DPS and i think that is what Brah was talking about.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Lilnecro@Apr 13 2007, 02:35 AM
It doesn't add a huge amount, but it does add a lot for burst DPS and i think that is what Brah was talking about.
Yeah if you're looking at 1min or 2min burst it'll be much more significant for sure.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Prathun
Mana Flare / Recursion is the enchanter's contribution to the raid's DPS. Performer's Psalm is the bard's contribution to the raid's DPS. That's the enabler's damage, the bard and enchanter, not the wizard's (or whoever), despite what the parse reports.


And that's why we've been shafted...

[Evillil]

Yup, was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. Still though, even without all that, what do the numbers look like? I kind of figure they still outdps us even without all the help, just straight wizzy vs. necro on any given mob.

I think we need to somehow ween the discussion away from wizzy vs. necro though and on to just straight "necros have been stagnated" since the devs seem to be on the wizzy side of the argument and see anything we post as just "bickering." Even though, we all know it's completely true and not bickering for the sake of bickering. The problem is though, that's tough to show them without having our frame of reference, i.e. wizzies kicking our ass six ways from sunday in OUR departments (long term dps, efficiency, etc...) I have nfc how to show this though, haha, so I'm just talking out my ass I guess or maybe someone more knowledgable could help.

[Schaeffer]

Well, here's the thing, having bards and enchanters on raids is a given. If their abilities increase the raids DPS when paired with nuking classes more than that of dot casters, then in makes it more beneficial to the raid to be heavy in the DD department rather than dot department.

If bard + chanter + wizzy > than bard + chanter + necro, then why reserve raid/group spots for necros? That's the flaw in his logic. There wouldn't be a discrepency if when we were paired with two classes that similarly raised the DPS of the raid. Even with attributing the "enabler" with the damage in lieu of who actual parsed teh damage, its more beneficial to have wizards over necros because of those enabling abilities. That's the point we need to make to Prathun!

[Evillil]

Haha, oh I definitely see the flaw in the logic there. Rashere comes in and says "we only care about highend comparisons since they're the ones that whine the most" followed by Prat saying "well yeah, but we don't count high end buffs, those go to the buffer." Wait though...shouldn't the extra melee damage from haste be attributed to the shammy/chanter/bard/whoever then? Oh, and spells casting faster thanks to cleric spell haste buffs? That's more DPS to them! Damn, at this rate, chanters must have the highest DPS by leaps and bounds since they haste and mind crack everyone, letting them cast longer! WTH, the more I think about it, the more that statement just sounds stupid, haha.

"There wouldn't be a discrepency if when we were paired with two classes that similarly raised the DPS of the raid."

Sorry, not sure if I understood you right, and I'm a bit curious about this. If the group makeup was just one wizzy and one necro, what would the parses look like with no outside factors, at the highend that is? I know for a fact that in a normal group, and where I'm at in the mid range, wizzies can definitely outdo us without breaking a sweat, while I bust my ass to stack dots as fast as I can.

I really don't know how we're going to get any point across to them, heh, with so many points to make on things that need to be improved, or at least brought back up to par.

[Schaeffer]

Say if Druids and Beasties had spells/abilities that enabled us to raise our dot DPS to the same level as when a wizzy is combined with the bard/chanter, then I wouldn't complain. It's late and I don't think I wrote the comment you quoted as a complete sentence, sorry bout that.

I'm not even going to begin to talk about casual wizzy vs casual necro, because when you get to the midrange there are too many damn variable to factor in. Lets try to win one battle first, the one thats on the table. Believe me, I want to see the comparison in the mid range too, I am by no means an end gamer, but I think we need to take baby steps.

[Lilnecro]

hmm, i bet everything is ALL FACTUAL!!! hehe WAYYYYYSS TEEEDDDDD

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by Evillil@Apr 13 2007, 12:07 AM
Haha, oh I definitely see the flaw in the logic there. Rashere comes in and says "we only care about highend comparisons since they're the ones that whine the most" followed by Prat saying "well yeah, but we don't count high end buffs, those go to the buffer." Wait though...shouldn't the extra melee damage from haste be attributed to the shammy/chanter/bard/whoever then? Oh, and spells casting faster thanks to cleric spell haste buffs? That's more DPS to them! Damn, at this rate, chanters must have the highest DPS by leaps and bounds since they haste and mind crack everyone, letting them cast longer! WTH, the more I think about it, the more that statement just sounds stupid, haha.

"There wouldn't be a discrepency if when we were paired with two classes that similarly raised the DPS of the raid."

Sorry, not sure if I understood you right, and I'm a bit curious about this. If the group makeup was just one wizzy and one necro, what would the parses look like with no outside factors, at the highend that is? I know for a fact that in a normal group, and where I'm at in the mid range, wizzies can definitely outdo us without breaking a sweat, while I bust my ass to stack dots as fast as I can.

I really don't know how we're going to get any point across to them, heh, with so many points to make on things that need to be improved, or at least brought back up to par.
The first thing we do is calm down.

The second thing we do, is approach one problem at a time.

The third thing we do, is give constructive feedback. Either through me or on your own..it makes little difference(to me, at least).

If bard songs and chanter enhancements worked as well for us as they do for wizards, that'd be a big step in the right direction..and that'll be next week's feedback. I don't think that screaming about issues 1-15 at one time will accomplish anything besides frustrating everyone involved.

Post your thoughts. Organized, well thought-out posts. I'll make a big-old email and send it off to a dev or 6.

[Meph]

The problem is see is that they are most likely counting CoA BP as our burst damage wich is flawed since majority of community doesn't have it.

We farmed CoA incl. OMM when it was current content for 6+ months had more than 50 BP's drop yet still only 2/4 necros got the robe in that time.

If they insist they might as well make it a nec class aa next time they make a set of aa's for a exp.

[Todwelt]

Originally posted by Schaeffer+Apr 13 2007, 12:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Schaeffer @ Apr 13 2007, 12:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Prathun
Mana Flare / Recursion is the enchanter's contribution to the raid's DPS. Performer's Psalm is the bard's contribution to the raid's DPS. That's the enabler's damage, the bard and enchanter, not the wizard's (or whoever), despite what the parse reports. [/b][/quote]
I think that we go after that statement first. Jeb, I think you are on this one already. So I may be just reiterating your thoughts but here goes.

Since those two items, buffs, have a significant impact on the DPS of nuking classes, would it be possible to get buffs from either those two classes or druid/bst, that would enhance our dps in the same manner. There is a bard song that does help somewhat ... Aria something or other but it help all casters equally I believe. Performer's psalm and mana flare directly help those that are DD casters .. Mage, Wiz, Druid (heh) but there is nothing that directly helps the primarily DoT casters .... Nec, Shm, Druid (hehx2).

This is my opinion and you may agree with it. If not, I don't care.

[Schaeffer]

Originally posted by Todwelt@Apr 13 2007, 08:01 AM
This is my opinion and you may agree with it. If not, I don't care.
Spoken like a true necro!


And yes I agree, that's where we need to start.

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Prathun
Mana Flare / Recursion is the enchanter's contribution to the raid's DPS. Performer's Psalm is the bard's contribution to the raid's DPS. That's the enabler's damage, the bard and enchanter, not the wizard's (or whoever), despite what the parse reports.

It's interesting I guess, but I've yet to hear anybody else consider DPS like this. Even if you attribute the DPS to the source, which nobody but dev's do heh, I firmly believe Wiz are still outbursting and doing a damn good job sustaining. Double the damage, I dream of such days!

[Lashden]

Well, for desirability sake, people do attribute DPS to it's source some; I've heard, "hey lets get a bard so they can play that DD song", alot lately.

However, I've still yet to hear, hey lets get a necro for DPS, for the 72 levels I've played my cleric.

Edit: oh and curiousity is nagging at me; is there a difference between tier 1 and tier 2 OoW robes as far as the click is concerned? I have the T1 robe, which is bagged for the clicky (which I use almost everytime I can). Would there be a point in getting the CoA one other than the stats upgrade?

[Xislaben]

Originally posted by Lashden@Apr 13 2007, 02:48 PM
Well, for desirability sake, people do attribute DPS to it's source some; I've heard, "hey lets get a bard so they can play that DD song", alot lately.

However, I've still yet to hear, hey lets get a necro for DPS, for the 72 levels I've played my cleric.

Edit: oh and curiousity is nagging at me; is there a difference between tier 1 and tier 2 OoW robes as far as the click is concerned? I have the T1 robe, which is bagged for the clicky (which I use almost everytime I can). Would there be a point in getting the CoA one other than the stats upgrade?
The tier 1 robe is half the duration on the click as the tier 2 robe. They share a recast so no you can't use both. I've both.

[Lashden]

Originally posted by Xislaben+Apr 13 2007, 09:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xislaben @ Apr 13 2007, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lashden@Apr 13 2007, 02:48 PM
Well, for desirability sake, people do attribute DPS to it's source some; I've heard, "hey lets get a bard so they can play that DD song", alot lately.

However, I've still yet to hear, hey lets get a necro for DPS, for the 72 levels I've played my cleric.

Edit: oh and curiousity is nagging at me; is there a difference between tier 1 and tier 2 OoW robes as far as the click is concerned? I have the T1 robe, which is bagged for the clicky (which I use almost everytime I can). Would there be a point in getting the CoA one other than the stats upgrade?
The tier 1 robe is half the duration on the click as the tier 2 robe. They share a recast so no you can't use both. I've both. [/b][/quote]
*Sigh*, must add that to my list of things to get eventually then lol. At least I have the T1 though, it's alot better than nothing.

[Brahman]

I dont' often parse myself, but I will say in a lower DPS group after I click it the mob dies ALOT faster.

It feels HUGE. Overall the long term gains from it could be small, so perhaps i shouldn't act like its THAT big of a deal. I will say as an officer in my guild I'll be kicking and screaming for us to continue CoA plows untill every one of our necro's has it.

Assuming we actually get OMM down soon. (35% has been our best attempt so far)

[scrat]

Somebody needs to inform the devs doing this burst DPS compare test b/t wiz and necro that necromancers do not get http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5755&source=Live.

[Brahman]

jeb is on the case.

I'm gonna go back to the project i was planning on researching / forwarding to jeb before that fucking circus started.

(IE imbalance of dot agro over other forms of agro)

[Jebasiz]

Originally posted by Meph@Apr 13 2007, 05:59 AM
The problem is see is that they are most likely counting CoA BP as our burst damage wich is flawed since majority of community doesn't have it.

We farmed CoA incl. OMM when it was current content for 6+ months had more than 50 BP's drop yet still only 2/4 necros got the robe in that time.

If they insist they might as well make it a nec class aa next time they make a set of aa's for a exp.
I'm talking to rashere about a host of issues, including what they take into account when they "balance" us. I have a feeling that their view is about to change rather sharply.

He looks at things in a vacuum, which doesn't work when outside factors are far from equal. We don't have the amplification methods available to us that DD'ers see. Bards are effective for us, but less so then say rogues, monks, wizards or even mages.

Enchanters give us 3 more mana a tic(I think it's 3)from a spell, and a weak aura for more mana if we're grouped with them. They add damage to DD's. Shaman do nothing for us. I'm not sure if rangers effect any casters, but they amp melee dps through the roof. It's really a clouded picture and I'm glad he has to deal with it vice me.

To that end, (not aimed at you meph..you're just a nice target to quote :P) stop bitching and start sending me feedback aimed at what these classes do for everyone else (particularly dps classes) and what they do us, break down the numbers and give clear concise information so I can do something with it. Based on your feedback, I'll tie it all together and make a universal proposal to address the short-comings that I'm sure we're going to see.

[Sivas]

Jebasiz, this isn't exactly what you're looking for regarding what other classes can do for us, but Knutplate's post on the SoE forum seemed to be mostly ignored but I felt was essential to the topic of why necros can't outburst dps wizards. His original post is on page 4 (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=150&topic_id=109825) with an update to include the zero tick a bit below his first post. Here's a summary which includes the zero tick data:

It doesnt seem plausible that we are anywhere near capable of delivering near the same amount of damage that a wizard is in such a short period of time.

Using Level I spells and doing a straight out of the box comparison - not allowing for any haste buffs, damage mods, or spell line resists - we get this:

Wizard casting at time zero. If im not mistaking, alternating between Flashfires and Cloudburst; that cycle gives wizards an applied damage rate of 1410 per second (4231/3), and

Assuming the LONGEST possible burst fight is 2 mins (by my standards, and I would venture to say most players) this results in the wizard being able to apply a little over 169200 damage in the 2 minute fight.

*This does not assume aggro issues, which would probably play a part in a real life situation.

Now to necros:

DoT cast time: 3.0 secs. 2.25 recast. = 5.25

(120/5.25 = 22.SMILEY8) 22 casting opportunities and (120/6= 20) 20 tick opportunities for damage to be applied over a fight.

Our maximized casting sequence would look something like this:

1) Ashengate 2) Dreadpyre 3) Curse of Mortality 4) Kedgefish 5) Corath 6) Ancient Mori 7) SukkDraas 8) Ashengate 9) Dreadpyre 10) Curse of Mortality 11) Drain Life 12) Kedgefish 13) Ancient Mori 14) Corath 15) SukkDraas 16) Ashengate 17) Dreadpyre * 5/6 18) Curse of Mortality* 4/6 19) Kedgefish* 1/2 20) Drain Life 21) Drain Life 22) Drain Life

or in terms of damage:

1) 5934 2) 5736 3) 4434 4) 5752 5) 5560 6) 3834 7) 4864 8] 5934 9) 5736 10) 4434 11) 1505 12) 5752 13) 3834 14) 5560 15) 4864 16) 5934 17) 4945 18] 2956 19) 2876 20) 1505 21) 1505 22) 1505

= 94959



In summary, the wizard does 169k dmg and the necro does 95k dmg in 2 minutes.

Now in a real parse you'd have to include focus effects, resists, and so on. But it seems pretty obvious that if those modifying factors were the same then it would not be possible for a necro to outburst dps a wizard in 2 minutes.

Do the devs have an explanation for this?

Sivas

[Delandra]

Guys, I think we're missing a great opportunity here. Just follow my logic please:

Necros are being nerfed, and we'll just say that there is a certain person that is causing this. Follow me? Good.

Ok...in order to get the Devs off of the Necro class, how about we ALL go start some wizards? We'll completely drain the class of anything that resembles balance, then they'll be nerfed :) It will work, I tell you, it will work!

/crazymaniacallaugh

[Schaeffer]

Delandra, though I found your post quite humorous, lets not try to derail threads in the Class issues forum. :P

[Delandra]

Agreed Schaef :)

I'll post my thoughts on this from a historical standpoint:

Throughout the game, there is always at least one underpowered or unbalanced class.

In the beginning, I think either the classes were pretty balanced, or people didn't give a crap about class balance. Towards the "middle" of EQ's life so far, we saw some classes get the shaft. I'll talk about warriors because I played one at this time. Warriors became very underpowered and weren't looked at for what they should be - tanks. Now, with the recent changes (i.e. OOC regen) warriors are again receiving some benefits and they are being sought after once again.

With everything that has been happening, it looks as though necromancers are going through this same slump. It seems you've got one person at the keyboard that either doesn't like necromancers or has no priority towards the class.

All things said, and to display my optimism, I believe there is a silver-lined cloud somewhere out there - it will just take the right person in the right position to find it.

[Brahman]

beastlords / chanters have it way worse then we do.

I think we should loan them jeb.