Combat Agility and Stability

[Doc Hollidazed]

:)

[aeriform]

The mitigation isn't the same. CA doesn't mitigate anything.

Combat Agility - increases the chance that you will not be hit
Combat Stability - increases the chance that you'll be hit for less damage

Choosing CA over CS means:
1) less chance of a spell being interrupted
if you don't get hit, you won't be interrupted
2) less chance of an NPC proc going off
NPC's only proc on hits
3) greater chance of surviving a high hitting mob
extreme example:
-if you're being quaded by an NPC for 2000 damage per hit and you have the choice of taking 25% effective mitigation or 25% effective avoidance and you have 5Khp
-you would always die if you chose mitigation (you would always take 6Khp damage), you would only die sometimes if you chose avoidance (sometimes the mob would miss twice in a round, and sometimes the mob would not miss)
4) greater reduction in damage taken over time (assuming that the cap are just as easy to reach for necro's) in particular if you're being hit for max or min damage all the time
-1% mitigation does not equal 1% avoidance in terms of reducing mob dps over time
-it's been suggested one the warrior and SK boards that 1% mitigation will reduce the amount of damage one takes by about 0.5%, but this depends on the NPC and the PC
-mitigation only affect the non-static part of damage taken, there are static (damage base) and variable (damage interval) parts of damage you take (do a search on why tanks choose to use evasive or defensive for more info on that, there's a lot to it
-if you're always getting hit for minimum damage, mitigation AA's do nothing for you
-if you're always getting hit for max damage, mitigation AA's will have much less effective than if you were getting hit for max and min damage equally

[GnekroeGnomicon]

2) less chance of an NPC proc going off
NPC's only proc on hitsIs this true? I am not doubting you, but is it different from PC's? We don't need to land a hit to proc do we (otherwise I would never, ever proc my WS)?

[Rikam]

yea gnek PC can proc on miss NPC have to hit for proc to go off. That is why one some mobs it is better for wars to use evasive over defensive. Less hits mean less chance of the nasty 3kdd(or whatever) to go off.

[Evillil]

Hi all, I was wondering if there's a post/log of how useful the mitigation/avoidance AA are after the ones in the PoP ability tab (lightning reflexes/innate defense) I did a quick search, but couldn't find anything detailing how much they really help. I'm thinking about mixing all the mitigation/avoidance AA, but I've heard mixed reports on how much they actually help for the amount of AA I'd have to invest in them. I'm currently at around 400 AA at level 71, most going toward crits and other DPS increasing type spells. I spend most of my time soloing so I'm just wondering if these AA would really be useful when I'm kiting and get lazy/sloppy and have to take a round or two.

Thanks in advance,
Evillil Bastage
71 Necro
The Rathe

[Xislaben]

They're good to have, but I wouldn't expect to see spectacular results. I'd definitely want all my dps AA's first, especially if you are soloing.

[Evillil]

That was kind of what my line of thinking was. I wish I could get magelo to work, but I can never get that registration email from them for some reason, heh. I seem to be running out of decent DPS increasing options though. I have all the nuke/dot crits I can get for my level, plus the ones that make your nuke crits hit harder (where's the one for dot crits please?) I have the army, one level of swarm, lifeburn, etc...all the "for fun" DPS increasers. Pet crits are maxxed for now pretty much, flurries-meh, got a couple levels in those just for fun. I froze exp at 71 since I can't afford the mana cost for the higher level spells, but I might just level on up to 75 just so I can buy more crit line AAs and the Zombie outbreak. Thanks for the quick response by the way!

Evillil Bastage
71 Necro
The Rathe

[scrat]

I'd also take into account your personal pc-client reliability. If you have a strong connection, good hardware & rarely lag then you probably will get much less. I've been on dial-up now for over a year & used to die about every 3 hours of game play due to lag spikes. Some days I'd get whacked twice in less than an hour due to lag.

After investing in CS3/CA3/LR5 I can now actually survive the majority of my lag spikes.

[Duke Roger]

My thoughts on this matter are that avoidance would help us better than mitigation, because when we do get hit for 1000 a pop, a double attack or quad will put us down regardless of a few percentages.

[Xelgadis]

Originally posted by Duke Roger@Jan 20 2007, 01:36 AM
My thoughts on this matter are that avoidance would help us better than mitigation, because when we do get hit for 1000 a pop, a double attack or quad will put us down regardless of a few percentages.
That's pretty much been the standard case since Luclin. Given the gear that's available to casuals these days (assuming a little effort is put into acquiring what's available), and providing all defensive AAs maxed, there's not much out there in groupable content that can one round a buffed caster.. comparatively. Ultimately people will want to max out both lines, but for casters it's a far wiser choice to work on avoiding hits first, the return from mitigation AAs is pretty weak for silkies.

A wizard recently tanked Quarm from start to finish (Quarm weighed in at nearly 1400 DPS.. heavy hitter, but high delay), which is a notable accomplishment, seeing as Quarm has one of the highest atk ratings in the game. I believe only elite mastruq crushers beat him out, those are arguably the most dangerous mob in the game still, very high atk, and very accurate (not to mention that they flurry). People will argue that Xxeric is more dangerous because she hits harder, but it's pretty much the same average DB high DI mob that you see on most raids these days, even Lorekeeper Grenwald (who can hit like a fleet of trucks) is no different. For the most part, raid mob atk hasn't changed much since PoP (with Discord being an anomaly in that trend).

(Main reason I brought up raid mobs is because there's not very many, through PoR, that I haven't tanked a few rounds with Xelgadis. In most of those cases I was able to fire off FD and live.)

In any case- since defensive parsing is a new hobby of mine, if I get the time and get bored enough, I might take a look at the benefits AC has for casters varying in the 1.2-2k range for reducing the chance of spikes. I can tweak with my necro's gear and buffs somewhat to get that range without sacrificing other mods much.

[Yinikren]

I don't have any logs showing exact percentages, but I'm pretty damn sure that maxing pop defensives brings you to 25% avoidance/migitation, and maxing DoD brinsg you up to 30% on both. ....Talk about diminishing returns.

I still cannot tank shit however, even with 1600 ac and 11.6k hp buffed. =P

I think this mostly has to do with the "random attack rate" of most oow+ mobs.

[Zandramadass]

You need more avoidance Yinikren. Is your actual defense/dodge skill capped too? I barely break 6k hp self buffed and with maxed defensives/avoidance I can solo tap tank anything that doesnt trip hit for 1k+... course i'm suicidal.

If I remember correctly the numbers are:

Arch
2, 4, 10%

PoP
2.5% per

OoW & DoD
.5% per

10 + 12.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 = 27.5%

[Ghuur]

From charts I have seen, I think the PoP AA's are closer to 1% each.

http://samanna.net/sham.info/demystified.shtml

Arch

2, 5, 10%

PoP (1% per)

11-15%

OOW and DoD (0.5% per)

15.5 - 20%

[Brahman]

Originally posted by Yinikren@Jan 25 2007, 02:27 AM
I don't have any logs showing exact percentages, but I'm pretty damn sure that maxing pop defensives brings you to 25% avoidance/migitation, and maxing DoD brinsg you up to 30% on both. ....Talk about diminishing returns.

I still cannot tank shit however, even with 1600 ac and 11.6k hp buffed. =P

I think this mostly has to do with the "random attack rate" of most oow+ mobs.
funny because i have been able to tank pretty well since before OoW came out, and i have never been on the bleeding edge of raiding.

[Yinikren]

I can tank mobs that hit for 1000 or so assuming they don't have the famous "oow random attack rate". Try tanking a mob in NC and you'll see what I mean although individual zones are different. It's actually rather amusing after you look back at your logs. Any ukun in NC for instance can swing 12 times in 4 seconds then swing twice in 6 seconds afterwards... very sporadic dps. Chromatic resist Chaos Claws doesn't help the lower geared people either. I can tank MPG satisfactorially, but RCoD for some reason gives me a lot of trouble. Dunno if it's the mobs or the RNG hating on me or what.

Pofire tables are easy to tank (no attack random attack rate, go get hit and see) but RcoD sucks heh. Again, it may just be specific zones. I know NC mobs are more dps than HoH mobs (who hit harder and are higher level) because of the random crap, lol.

However, I only have 34 avoidance =(

The charts I saw (though they were a while ago, heh) showed pop defensives at 2.5% each level, bringing you up to 22.5% on each for maxing PoP. OoW and DoD were at some random percentage (don't remember but less then 1% per rank)each level, bringing your max up to 30% for each. Again, I saw this a while ago, possibly on the rogue boards, but I don't think it changes vs. class.

I'm posting from class atm (heh =P) but maybe when I get home I'll go tank some stuff and see what happens.

[Nefarious]

The charts I saw (though they were a while ago, heh) showed pop defensives at 2.5% each level, bringing you up to 22.5% on each for maxing PoP. OoW and DoD were at some random percentage (don't remember but less then 1% per rank)each level, bringing your max up to 30% for each. Again, I saw this a while ago, possibly on the rogue boards, but I don't think it changes vs. class.

I'm posting from class atm (heh =P) but maybe when I get home I'll go tank some stuff and see what happens.

I know this thread hasn't been posted to since January, but can anyone confirm Yinikren's findings? I'm at a point where I'm starting to do the defensive AAs, and I'd like set an AA priority path. I can only do this if I know the raw percentages per defensive AA.

Thanks.

[scrat]

I put a lot of trust in The Steel Warriors- their numbers are:

Luclin Combat Stability/Agility @ 2/3/5
-(10% total)
PoP Lightning Reflexes/Innate Defense @ 1/1/1/1/1
-(5% total)
OoW Reflexive Mastery/Defensive Instincts @ .5/.5/.5/.5/.5
-(2.5% total)
DoD Precognition/Thick Skin @ .5/.5/.5/.5/.5
-(2.5% total)

Total: 20% to each mitigation and avoidance

[Vinge]

I'm working on my ever changing plans for spending AA points. Here's the question: level 80, right about 1000 AA under the belt. Currently 20/23 of Combat Agility. 13/23 Combat Stability. Yes, ultimately I want to max them out, but they are getting expensive, CA 21 is 8 points and I'm starting to question if it is worth continuing just now when there are other things I could use. And what about Combat Stability, how much is enough for a silk wearer? I don't do much tap tanking but I'm a sorta sloppy/lazy kiter I suppose, get hit regularly. Suggestions appreciated.

[Knutplate]

Depends on two things really; your playstyle and content.

If youre only going to kite, then they dont really matter at all other than in situations where you might need slide a tight corner or to channel a snare.

If the content can one round you then they become a little more useful, but again... if youre not getting hit they dont matter.

If you do like to take hits and test yourself, then they make a substantial difference. I would also recommend stun resistance if this is your preferred style.

With any playstyle I wouldnt ignore them completely, but may be other AAs that are much more likely equate to a larger gain in power or capacity.

Its all about balance and diminishing returns.

[shetra]

Found an interesting thing a while back on some monk board was when there was only 18 ranks of this but still. The first 3 ranks of CA make up a wopping 50% of the bonus at 9 ranks you get 75% its a real big diminishing return. For these I stopped at 18 ranks (before i knew the above stats I would have stopped sooner) Going to leave the remainig ranks till well in the future.

[encephalitis]

Return values by rank:

Combat Agility Values -

AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1
Rank1: Evasion 2
Rank2: Evasion 5
Rank3: Evasion 10
Rank4: Evasion 13
Rank5: Evasion 16
Rank6: Evasion 19
Rank7: Evasion 22
Rank8: Evasion 25
Rank9: Evasion 26
Rank10: Evasion 27
Rank11: Evasion 28
Rank12: Evasion 30
Rank13: Evasion 32
Rank14: Evasion 33
Rank15: Evasion 34
Rank16: Evasion 35
Rank17: Evasion 37
Rank18: Evasion 39
Rank19: Evasion 40
Rank20: Evasion 41
Rank21: Evasion 42
Rank22: Evasion 43
Rank23: Evasion 44

Combat Stability Values -

AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1
Rank1: ACLimitMod 2
Rank2: ACLimitMod 5
Rank3: ACLimitMod 10
Rank4: ACLimitMod 13
Rank5: ACLimitMod 16
Rank6: ACLimitMod 19
Rank7: ACLimitMod 22
Rank8: ACLimitMod 25
Rank9: ACLimitMod 27
Rank10: ACLimitMod 29
Rank11: ACLimitMod 31
Rank12: ACLimitMod 33
Rank13: ACLimitMod 35
Rank14: ACLimitMod 37
Rank15: ACLimitMod 39
Rank16: ACLimitMod 41
Rank17: ACLimitMod 43
Rank18: ACLimitMod 45
Rank19: ACLimitMod 46
Rank20: ACLimitMod 47
Rank21: ACLimitMod 48
Rank22: ACLimitMod 49
Rank23: ACLimitMod 50

Physical Enhancement:

Rank1: ACLimitMod 2, Evasion 2

[Osgoode]

Asked the Serverwide.Necromancer chat channel one day that same question and it was of the opinion that Combat Agility was better than Combat Stability. It makes sense to avoid getting hit completely is waaay better than getting hit for less.

[scrat]

Return values by rank:

Combat Agility Values -

AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1
Rank1: Evasion 2
Rank2: Evasion 5
Rank3: Evasion 10
Rank4: Evasion 13
Rank5: Evasion 16
Rank6: Evasion 19
Rank7: Evasion 22
Rank8: Evasion 25
Rank9: Evasion 26
Rank10: Evasion 27
Rank11: Evasion 28
Rank12: Evasion 30
Rank13: Evasion 32
Rank14: Evasion 33
Rank15: Evasion 34
Rank16: Evasion 35
Rank17: Evasion 37
Rank18: Evasion 39
Rank19: Evasion 40
Rank20: Evasion 41
Rank21: Evasion 42
Rank22: Evasion 43
Rank23: Evasion 44



Combat Stability Values -

AFFECTNAME BASE_EFFECT_1
Rank1: ACLimitMod 2
Rank2: ACLimitMod 5
Rank3: ACLimitMod 10
Rank4: ACLimitMod 13
Rank5: ACLimitMod 16
Rank6: ACLimitMod 19
Rank7: ACLimitMod 22
Rank8: ACLimitMod 25
Rank9: ACLimitMod 27
Rank10: ACLimitMod 29
Rank11: ACLimitMod 31
Rank12: ACLimitMod 33
Rank13: ACLimitMod 35
Rank14: ACLimitMod 37
Rank15: ACLimitMod 39
Rank16: ACLimitMod 41
Rank17: ACLimitMod 43
Rank18: ACLimitMod 45
Rank19: ACLimitMod 46
Rank20: ACLimitMod 47
Rank21: ACLimitMod 48
Rank22: ACLimitMod 49
Rank23: ACLimitMod 50

Physical Enhancement:

Rank1: ACLimitMod 2, Evasion 2

These values have been confirmed by dev Nodyin.

Combat Agility Values -
*The value of evasion is a direct representation of the percentage of avoidance gained, but it is a variable respective to the NPC trying to hit you. Rank23 does not mean you have a 44% chance to completely avoid incomming melee damage from anything. Such things as NPC accuracy & new heroic stats will come into play. Think of Rank23 making it 44% more difficult for a NPC to hit you - but if that NPC baseline has a 80% minimum hit rate with 100% max, avoidance will only effect that 20% miss-spread range, or give 8.8% real avoidance. But against a decaying skeleton with a minimum hit rate of 1% and a max of 50% - it will take a while for it to hit you.

Combat Stability Values -
*The value of AC limitmod is a direct representation to the percentage of the increase to your AC Armor Class softcap...they are not % figures for damage not taken or damage reduced. Actual damage reduced depends on the class, "level" and one's gear/mods/heroics relative to the NPCs stats. This has more of a reduction based on NPC damage bonus & max damage (they have minimum damage and damage bonus and max damage just like players). Having rank23 does not decrease NPC hit value by 50% for anybody.

*This info was gratefully copied from many other sources*

[Drazzminius]

Values added to the AA Checklist.
;)