5-13 Dev Chat necro specific issue..

[scrat]

[19:18] <MMORPGBot> kers asks, "Any chance of getting a more updated necro twitch? Maybe even a pet insta-shrink when using WTD or AoD?"
[19:19] <EQ> If my math is right, the Mental Vivisection Rk. III recourse adds an additional 86 mana per tick to every player in the group.
[19:21] <EQ> And it doesn't require the utmost attention from the necromancer, allowing them to apply DoTs or play /gems while the mana recourse pumps away. I am intending to upgrade this line in the future.
[19:21] <EQ> If I'm understanding that correctly and the *size* of the pets summoned by those 2 AA are a problem I have no objection to shrinking them. I would just want to confirm after this chat that I'm understanding the question correctly.


On the Mental Vivisection response, whatever dev responded has some serious math issues as well as not having a clue how a necro operates. Rk3 = 158/tick recourse for 4x ticks = 632 mana. Cast time of 6.0 seconds, recast of 60 seconds = 11 tick maximum cycle time. 632/11 = 57.4 mana/tick, not 86 as stated...and it consumes necro mana - not providing "an additional xx mana per tick to every player in the group". It costs us 1138 base mana to cast. I don't expect devs to have memorized every precise detail of our spells, but whoever answered that was off by 60%. That's a margin of error that can only be attributed IMO to a combination of ignorance and indifference.

And..allowing us to apply dots or play gems while recourse pumps away? Who and what kind of idiot is in charge of answering spell questions?
[19:00] <MMORPG_Taera> To submit a question please /msg MMORPGBot yourquestionhere
[19:00] <MMORPG_Taera> Now it's time for introductions! Feel free to start sending your questions to MMORPGBot while our guests introduce themselves!
[19:01] <EQ> Hello, I'm Keith Turkowski, I work on items, game systems, and content.
[19:01] <EQ> Hello! I am Adam "Ngreth" Bell. Game designer specializing in Tradeskills.
[19:01] <EQ> Hi, I’m Ryan Barker the recently promoted Lead Designer.
[19:01] <EQ> Hi everyone. I am David Ford, I work on the AA system and do various raids and quests.
[19:01] <EQ> Afternoon all.. my name is Doug Cronkhite.. and I create stuff that kills you.
[19:02] <EQ> Hey everyone, I'm Jason Mash, I work on game systems and content.
[19:02] <EQ> Afternoon everyone. I'm Jonathan Caraker, the designer responsible for the spells system.
[19:02] <EQ> Hey all! I’m Lydia “Zatozia the Torturess” Pope, Community Relations Manager for EverQuest. I sit in a dungeon all day working on website features and causing my eyes to bleed by reading the forums all day long.
Vivisection series should be eliminated in spell form, made an instant-cast AA with a 1 minute reuse for it to make it something a necro cares about using. I don't know how many mind taps of mine have hit corpses due to the insane cast time in group scenarios.

However, on the shrinkage of pets for AoTD and WTD that would be a very handy toggle on/off AA for us, something similar to the /focus or /hold toggles. I know it's sometimes fun to animate a 120ft tall named, but it's also annoying as heck to xp groups when you pop 5 aotd pets and the mezzer or offtanker has issues targeting adds. It would also be handy if they were made un-targetable option and transparent.

[Jebasiz]

I told developers that I'd sooner have this community play gems then feed mana..sorry! I guess someone didn't forget!

[Todwelt]

Heh ... I keep telling my guildies that I deleted the subversion line of spells. f that line of spells.

Oh yea .. and when in a group scenario and I am actually trying to use the mana tap, it really pisses me off when it lands on a corpse (due to cast time) and then greys out the spell gem.

[solithan]

heh yeah the cast time is the win is it not...
The other "flaw" with this line of reasoning for this spell is more often then not the necro are not in the group with a cleric that needs the mana.

[Lylith]

^ This is very true. Last run in Anguish, I was grouped with a beastlord and an SK. It's useless to give them mana. I only used it because I just bought it that day.

[Haven]

Heh ... I keep telling my guildies that I deleted the subversion line of spells. f that line of spells.

Oh yea .. and when in a group scenario and I am actually trying to use the mana tap, it really pisses me off when it lands on a corpse (due to cast time) and then greys out the spell gem.

man keeping your secret is gonna cost ya now, you know the price :P

[Jebasiz]

heh yeah the cast time is the win is it not...
The other "flaw" with this line of reasoning for this spell is more often then not the necro are not in the group with a cleric that needs the mana.

That's a flaw in group set-up. If you have low mana clerics or..clerics that aren't good at mana preservation, they should be grouped with classes that can give them mana. Loading subversions isn't the answer.

[winchester20]

Personally it bothers me more that there are still idiots out there asking for upgrades to twitch. I would have thought that even the most braindead of players would have gotten edumacated on this issue by now. The fact that the Devs didn't get the math right doesn't surprise me in the least. We've been fightin an uphill battle with them for years now.

[Ultulus]

give us a donate AA to be used once every few hours that gives all of our mana to target... like gather mana for enchanters or lay hands for paladins... though most of the time it is a huge waste of mana... I really would just to love to not have to cast vivisection when I do get put in the cleric group.

[Jebasiz]

give us a donate AA to be used once every few hours that gives all of our mana to target... like gather mana for enchanters or lay hands for paladins... though most of the time it is a huge waste of mana... I really would just to love to not have to cast vivisection when I do get put in the cleric group.

How about...no.

[winchester20]

How about...no.

I second that big time.

[Pharren]

i dont get whats so horrible about casting vivisection... ?

[Lashden]

It could be more useful if it weren't for the cast time. I use it in groups some.

I really think the fact that it still costs as much mana as it does just to do the benefit is out of whack. Take a bst's FPoS, which they get for free at almost the same rate as we do iirc.

Edit: although I won't complain...since the clerics in my guild have learned about FPoS, i've not once heard of a necro being asked for mana heh.

[Ultulus]

I hate casting it because all I ever hear from the retards is its not helping... Twitch me. Fuck that. I would rather have an AA I can tell them is down.

[Arkayn]

Over the last year or so Ive been asked to twitch 3 times. First time I got a tell back saying "thanks, that helped a lot". Second time I got a tell back "ok, im good now, can stop thanks". Third time I got a tell back "ok in ooc now, thanks". All three times I ignored them, except to respond with a 'np!' even tho I didnt do shit for them.

Moral of the story: Ignore em! they'll prolly think you were twitching em the whole time

[Qedd]

Moral of the story: Ignore em! they'll prolly think you were twitching em the whole time

Almost always the truth. Most people are stupid about it. They don't deserve my mana, and therefore I don't feel bad about not giving them any. :)

But, since Prathun won't let go of using us as crutches for mana-newbs, he oughta just knock all wracks down to instant or 1-2 sec cast time.

It's got a long recast anyway which could be even longer to compensate for fast-casting if needed .. I could care less.

Probably still won't use it any more than I do now. Which is very little.

But if I could pop one off instantly, I might be more inclined to think about it.

[Jebasiz]

I don't defend prathun much..and I'm not sure this really a 'defense" anyway..but..it's damn hard work trying to "idiot-proof" anything. If a cleric wants to be OOM, they'll find a way. If they want to converve mana..they almost always can do a better job.

I don't think the solution for clerics mana usage lies solely with him..but is a combination of the quality of clerics and spells they use..or lack thereof in both instances.

[Knutplate]

I dont know why he wont simply cap it to make all the issues go away.

Decide whatever range the spell was intended to last for 60? 65? 70!? and smack a cap on it where the spell wont land on target.

Doesnt seem technically difficult, but im no programmer so I dont know.

I dont see the expectation of twitch ever going away. There is always going to be demand for it when people are undergeared. It didnt go away at lvl 80, and its not going to go away at level 100 or beyond.

The way its looked at when somebody is down on mana is that something is better than nothing.

Just kill the spell line already. Or dont, and just cap it.

[Todwelt]

How about...no.

Great response /nod

Ignore the requests for twitches. Get a tells asking for "feeds please" ... few minutes later, good now thanks. And I never loaded the damn spells; kinda funny imo. And ever since Bst's got focused paragon, I get the questions once in a blue moon /cheer

[Maeryn]

i once got asked in a pickup group by a ranger to twitch them.

i had such a good time making fun of them for it that they just /q'd out of the group.

on the other hand, that was ages ago and i haven't had anyone ask for me to twitch them other than the occasional cleric app who hasn't yet learned how to manage their mana (but oh, how fast they learn). it's amazing how far selective reading can take you. after the first two or three times they just stop asking and take the hint. our damage far outweighs anything you could hope to accomplish with twitching, hell i don't even use mind wrack on raids anymore either.

at this point they really need to forget about both mechanisms and just focus on improving OUR mana regen.

[solithan]

It could be more useful if it weren't for the cast time. I use it in groups some.

I really think the fact that it still costs as much mana as it does just to do the benefit is out of whack. Take a bst's FPoS, which they get for free at almost the same rate as we do iirc.

Edit: although I won't complain...since the clerics in my guild have learned about FPoS, i've not once heard of a necro being asked for mana heh.

ehhe yeah its amusing that BST's get a "twitch" thats better then ours. I just re-direct any tells I get to them now. My BSTs thanks me dearly I'm sure ehehhe. In truth I've only gotten one complain stating they used that AA on themselves to keep up on mana.


Here's a thought :)
Give the mindwrack line an insta cast and a MGB effect.

[Aegrusnecrox]

Instant MGB mindwrack would be pretty fucking sweet actually.

I dont mind buffing up mindwrack, because that spell actually returns more mana than it uses so it's beneficial to *me* to use it, as well as everyone else around me, and if they reduce the cast time it does not seriously impact my dps. That i'm fine with.

-Egg

[solithan]

Just wondering, but does MGB even effect mindwrack? I never bought MGB on principle that it was completely worthless, I dont think it does but was just sorta cureious.

[Pharren]

Just wondering, but does MGB even effect mindwrack?
no

hell i don't even use mind wrack on raids anymore either.
i use it on trash, and thats it. and you have to find a mob that isnt currently being attacked otherwise it will die before it lands :(

[bloodstone]

And its the only time I will load the spell. Its when there is a near full wipe and the clerics need to rez and the enchanter need mana to buff . thats it.

[Todwelt]

And its the only time I will load the spell. Its when there is a near full wipe and the clerics need to rez and the enchanter need mana to buff . thats it.

Blessing of ressurection .... cleric AA rez (not to mention the clicky stick). No mana needed. And chanters can mana draw or some damn thing like that. I still won't load the spell.

[FCseven]

The trouble comes when cleric teams in a guild spam nothing but their fastest most inefficient heals all of the time.They hope for a crit or that their heal focus will make up the slack.

I can imagine when inexperienced or undergeared cleric teams run lom they look to the nearest necro to support this gross incompetence.

Anyway,it's obvious that this line of spells is still a thorn in our ass.Why anyone would ask for an upgrade in a dev chat just amazes me.I can only speculate it was someone who boxes a necro or has no clue what they are doing.

I still say the solution to this longstanding issue is placing a lvl cap on the subversion line of lvl 60.As in the spell wont work if you cast it on players lvl 60 and above.

[Xislaben]

And its the only time I will load the spell. Its when there is a near full wipe and the clerics need to rez and the enchanter need mana to buff . thats it.

No, the only time it's helpful is when I don't want to wait for OOC regen on my alts as they do imbues for tradeskills :P

[Lylith]

Instant MGB mindwrack would be pretty fucking sweet actually.

I dont mind buffing up mindwrack, because that spell actually returns more mana than it uses so it's beneficial to *me* to use it, as well as everyone else around me, and if they reduce the cast time it does not seriously impact my dps. That i'm fine with.

-Egg

Does it have an agro component beyond the earlier version? I got major agro using my level 79 mind wrack even though I FD 4x during the fight. SCS 6 currently.

I really did not expect to get smacked down.

[scrat]

Not to stir the pot, but I've heard a few necro's mention mindwrack returning more mana than it cost i.e. they don't mind casting it...anybody care to explain this? Am I not getting something?

[DeadLikeMe]

Does it have an agro component beyond the earlier version? I got major agro using my level 79 mind wrack even though I FD 4x during the fight. SCS 6 currently.

I really did not expect to get smacked down.

well I find it depends what you are Mindwracking on and where. Not really a MW issue but in FC for example, I've had giants get pulled to raid and run right up to me and start smacking me around even though I'm not sitting, not casting, and not anywhere near the "front".

[Lashden]

Not to stir the pot, but I've heard a few necro's mention mindwrack returning more mana than it cost i.e. they don't mind casting it...anybody care to explain this? Am I not getting something?

Thank you...I was beginning to think I was failing at simple math.

Rank 2 gives 147 per tick and lasts 4 ticks according to lucy. So that's 588. It costs 1068 to cast...even at 40% mana preservation that's still 641 mana. I just got done doing a bit of testing with an 18% detrimental focus (to level 80) and I avg. about 31-33%...

So I don't see how that's more either, unless detrimental extension is working on the recourse, which I doubt, or you get extremely lucky on your mana pres. roll.

[solithan]

Well...It does work out to be "more mana" when you have another necro in the group casting it as well because you both benefit from both. And yes certainly in all but the best circumstances it costs more mana to cast then it returns.

I know some folks wait for a GoM proc to cast it, thereby generating "free" mana. But in my experience there is almost always another dot that needs to be applied that costs more.


Who knows, maybe I'm missing something too.

[flubuk]

It's never "free" to cast, but it can work out to "not cost too much"

And it's a real boon to clerics on tough content your learning.

I chain it on several encounters in Crystallos , and MtM in MMM.

PS one top tip. if you can spare the gem when solo/raid mem level 70 mindwrack in your "utility" slot and cast it on GoM procs from Dread Pyre.

To summarize, to me, it takes little effort and mana to cast , and provides a massive help to my Raid members.

Twitch for the 21st Century if you will..

[Meph]

I used MW on raids quite alot especially tougher ones . it's agreat in combo with GoM proc or Blood Magic too.

hint ... spell casting reinforcement adds 1 tick to mind warck recurse!

[Vanlor]

Thank you...I was beginning to think I was failing at simple math.

Rank 2 gives 147 per tick and lasts 4 ticks according to lucy. So that's 588. It costs 1068 to cast...even at 40% mana preservation that's still 641 mana. I just got done doing a bit of testing with an 18% detrimental focus (to level 80) and I avg. about 31-33%...

So I don't see how that's more either, unless detrimental extension is working on the recourse, which I doubt, or you get extremely lucky on your mana pres. roll.

Maybe they are taking into account mana returned to group members? Without extended duration (if that does affect MW recourse) or mana pres, if you take into account even one other caster in your group you are returning a total of 1176 mana for a cost of 1068. Add in that you will most likely have at least 3 casters in group (including yourself) and that you DO have mana pres and possibly the dot extension...

[Aegrusnecrox]

With specialization (it's alteration afterall), & 23% mana pres it works out to about 45% mana pres on mind wrack. Factor in Clairvoyance, and you've got roughly break-even mana cost.

That makes it worth it in my opinion, especially if they decide to reduce the cast time on it.

-Egg

[Jebasiz]

I used MW on raids quite alot especially tougher ones . it's agreat in combo with GoM proc or Blood Magic too.

hint ... spell casting reinforcement adds 1 tick to mind warck recurse!

Ya..the aa everyone complained that I pushed for seems to never run out of benefits.

[flubuk]

Ya..the aa everyone complained that I pushed for seems to never run out of benefits.

Indeed, with retrospect, this is a fantastic AA.

CoA robe clicky and MW recourse are worth it alone :)

[scrat]

Thanks for the heads up! Did some testing & parsing to see how my personal numbers rolled with my ghetto focus; it's not as full of suck as it looks.

[encephalitis]

Ya..the aa everyone complained that I pushed for seems to never run out of benefits.

Too bad they had to go and nerf potions to not be affected by SCR.

[solithan]

Hmm so our recourses count as "beneficial spells" ? or is it just this recourse?
Can anyone confirm it also extends our leach line recourse?

Do the dot extensions affect it? Is it getting affected by both?

Cureious/intresting.

I dont have the CoA BP clicky so SCR didn't have any appeal to me.

[Meph]

It also increases clicky buffs from items, that alot makes it uber for me.

[Sarnath Creed]

I personally love the twitch line of spells, Whenever I use my necro to PL another one of my casters, I just set up my keyboard to alternate twitches and nuke away ;p

At level 6-20 its really super powerful! ;p

I tried setting it up on my shaman at 80 and chain casted HoT's on myself to see how much mana it was actually giving me, and with 10k mana, it wasnt really that noticable.

the only other time i dont mind twitching is when i am on my mount and in ooc, cause you never fall below 100% mana even chain casting. so on raids, i usuallly twitch the clerics for a couple of minutes, or when they get a fresh rez so that we can move on to another target, or clear shit faster.

during fights however, my guild usually pops 1-2 necros in with the cleric/warrior groups when we are low on healers, and we chain vivisection back and forth.

in some situations it is useful, but those situations are few and far between.

[Vanlor]

I personally love the twitch line of spells,

Never open another statement with this phrase again. k thx

[Desh]

The clerics in my guild always seem to go straight to the beastlords for mana now. In the past I've only used the wrack line on raids in special circumstances, such as being in a group with the raid's only ench during a mez heavy event. I don't mind using it from time to time, but I don't want it to become something I cast every time it refreshes all night long.

[xenamten]

I personally love the twitch line of spells, Whenever I use my necro to PL another one of my casters, I just set up my keyboard to alternate twitches and nuke away ;p

At level 6-20 its really super powerful! ;p

I tried setting it up on my shaman at 80 and chain casted HoT's on myself to see how much mana it was actually giving me, and with 10k mana, it wasnt really that noticable.

the only other time i dont mind twitching is when i am on my mount and in ooc, cause you never fall below 100% mana even chain casting. so on raids, i usuallly twitch the clerics for a couple of minutes, or when they get a fresh rez so that we can move on to another target, or clear shit faster.

during fights however, my guild usually pops 1-2 necros in with the cleric/warrior groups when we are low on healers, and we chain vivisection back and forth.

in some situations it is useful, but those situations are few and far between.

how you could love twitching i dont understand , but if ur not coming below 100% on horse back then ur only using one twitch spell load 2 of them there on different timers and when used give about the same rate as the higest fos bst' currently get except ur taking one of the biggest dps toon out of the fight

[Aegrusnecrox]

please stop digging up 2 month old threads to add drab recycled commentary.

I know we're all necromancers here, but this is getting irritating.

-Egg

[Hohlraum]

please stop digging up 2 month old threads to add drab recycled commentary.

I know we're all necromancers here, but this is getting irritating.

-Egg

yeah, you are distracting from the other 10 threads that get posted on every month. it get overwhelming. ;)